So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

[Po$eidon]

Once you get to law school, you'll figure out who the people are that post on TLS regularly. You'll remember this thread. And you'll feel better.

Umm why? Sorry I just want to know why I will feel better at law school? Are the reports untrue? Will my options be good? These employment outcomes sound utterly terrifying

I know some very level-headed and hardworking people in real life who are currently in biglaw and they tell me what they're doing is not sustainable. Some people cope better than others, but just look at the attrition rate in biglaw. It's clearly not for everyone - heck, even for most people. And these were already "winners" with good academic pedigree/top grades/both.

So run away while I still can? Or fight hard when I'm in school to get into....what?

[palalc]

You have to know that the right answer to all of those questions is "it depends" right?

For my second question maybe, but as for the first- if going from NYC biglaw to equity partner at a successful (regional) midlaw firm was a viable career path, I assume many would do it, right? I assume the compensation would be higher, or at least have potential to grow much higher, with a definite increase in QOL? And as partner, you wouldn't be someone's lackey as appears to be the case in biglaw, or at least not as much at first and then not at all when senior partner. The only possible flaw I can see is that many, if not most, midlaw firms may not have practice groups similar to biglaw, so the experience wouldn't translate?

I understand one would probably need ties to the region, but most of us weren't born and raised in NYC- we have ties to other regions. And I'm not suggesting it for anyone here, least of all OP who wants to stay in NYC and leave law, but is it possible for others? Or a futile dream?

In other words, is it as unlikely as making partner in biglaw, or is it a more viable path? Am I missing something?

[BigZuck]

You have to know that the right answer to all of those questions is "it depends" right?

For my second question maybe, but as for the first- if going from NYC biglaw to equity partner at a successful (regional) midlaw firm was a viable career path, I assume many would do it, right? I assume the compensation would be higher, or at least have potential to grow much higher, with a definite increase in QOL? And as partner, you wouldn't be someone's lackey as appears to be the case in biglaw, or at least not as much at first and then not at all when senior partner. The only possible flaw I can see is that many, if not most, midlaw firms may not have practice groups similar to biglaw, so the experience wouldn't translate?

I understand one would probably need ties to the region, but most of us weren't born and raised in NYC- we have ties to other regions. And I'm not suggesting it for anyone here, least of all OP who wants to stay in NYC and leave law, but is it possible for others? Or a futile dream?

In other words, is it as unlikely as making partner in biglaw, or is it a more viable path? Am I missing something?

Partners aren't someone's lackey? You sure about that?

[palalc]

You have to know that the right answer to all of those questions is "it depends" right?

For my second question maybe, but as for the first- if going from NYC biglaw to equity partner at a successful (regional) midlaw firm was a viable career path, I assume many would do it, right? I assume the compensation would be higher, or at least have potential to grow much higher, with a definite increase in QOL? And as partner, you wouldn't be someone's lackey as appears to be the case in biglaw, or at least not as much at first and then not at all when senior partner. The only possible flaw I can see is that many, if not most, midlaw firms may not have practice groups similar to biglaw, so the experience wouldn't translate?

I understand one would probably need ties to the region, but most of us weren't born and raised in NYC- we have ties to other regions. And I'm not suggesting it for anyone here, least of all OP who wants to stay in NYC and leave law, but is it possible for others? Or a futile dream?

In other words, is it as unlikely as making partner in biglaw, or is it a more viable path? Am I missing something?

Partners aren't someone's lackey? You sure about that?

Yes I'm sure that warrants a whole other discussion, bringing in and maintaining business and all, but that aside, what about the actual question: Is this a common path? And if not common then at least viable?

I'm not asking as some sort of "retort" to the OPs original post, but just genuinely curious. Do people do NYC biglaw for awhile, to pay down debt and/or save, and then move home (or to a region with ties)- when ready to start a family or just sick of biglaw- and become partner at a worthwhile midlaw firm? If not, why? I feel as though there might some obvious flaw to this path that I'm missing? Not enough prestige for the T6 to biglaw crowd? Certainly it has the potential to be a very financially sound move, right?

[Danger Zone]

Yeah it happens, but it's hard to make predictions about where your career will be 7 years from now. Never would have thought I'd work in my current industry ever and I'm only two years out of law school.

[RParadela]

From what I understand, MidLaw is generally commercial litigation, so if you are doing White collar crime defense or any type of transactional work then your exit ops into MidLaw are more limited.

[palalc]

Both interesting points. I can see how it may be a "good" option, but very hard to plan for. I appreciate the insight.

[Danger Zone]

From what I understand, MidLaw is generally commercial litigation, so if you are doing White collar crime defense or any type of transactional work then your exit ops into MidLaw are more limited.

There's plenty of transactional midlaw, at least in NYC.

[Po$eidon]

From what I understand, MidLaw is generally commercial litigation, so if you are doing White collar crime defense or any type of transactional work then your exit ops into MidLaw are more limited.

There's plenty of transactional midlaw, at least in NYC.

Any particular reason you don't leave biglaw to pursue that?

Edit: Oh I thought you were in biglaw but it looks like you're doing something else

[Danger Zone]

The things I hated about working at a law firm would have been the same at any law firm. There's enough stories ITT that you can probably understand.

[Malarkey]

So run away while I still can? Or fight hard when I'm in school to get into....what?

In case you missed this post, here it is. I'm a 0L and I recognize that I know nothing, but this person paints a somewhat brighter picture, at least of litigation.

This is a great thread. I have been reading this board very occasionally for the past few years, and this is one of best discussions I’ve seen on here.

I'm a sixth-year litigation associate in a niche practice group at a v50 in NYC. Some people have asked for a Biglaw litigator’s perspective. I will offer my own, perhaps as a counterpoint to the OP – I am generally quite happy, although at the end of the day, I also have serious concerns about partnership prospects and exit options. Also, admittedly I have not been at the type of high-pressure firm that the OP is at. Anyway, I’m happy to answer questions if people have them.

My background: I graduated from a top 5 UG with a liberal arts major, and decided to pursue doctoral work in that subject, also at a top 5 institution. Several years into my graduate program, I began to realize that the academic job prospects were bleak – in the 21st century, the tenure-track teaching post at a major research institution or idyllic small liberal arts college has become the academic version of winning the lottery. I was scared of being the scholarly equivalent of a contract attorney for years to come. As a former high school and college debater, and as someone whose graduate studies were already somewhat related to law, and mostly, as someone who wanted $160k a year, law school seemed like the obvious choice. I ended up at a T2 in NYC with a full scholarship. At the time, I reasoned that due to the rigorous academics of my UG and grad programs, I would be smarter and harder-working than the other students at the T2; so why go into debt for a T14? This was in pre-recession days when I had little reason to doubt the employment statistics proffered by the law schools, and I personally knew more than a few T2 grads who were at firms like Skadden, Weil, Latham, etc. What I found out at my T2, of course, was that there were plenty of reasonably intelligent people who were also extreme strivers/gunners, and that succeeding in law school, in terms of grades, was not really in line with my intellectual proclivities. Then, during the summer/fall of OCIs, the financial crisis set in. It was a pure sh*tshow. Firms pulled out of our OCI; some people had summer offers rescinded; several firms went under; current summer associates were no-offered; mass layoffs of current associates were beginning. I was not that near the top of my class, but I interview extremely well, and I considered myself lucky to have two SA offers at v50 firms; I accepted the offer at the firm that had not just laid off dozens of associates. Many people much higher up in class rank than myself ended up with nothing.

Being an SA in the summer of 2009 was likewise stressful for most people. It was well known that dealwork (M&A, finance, capital markets) had ground to a halt at all but the most elite firms. At my firm, bankruptcy and litigation were keeping the lights on. As an SA, I glommed onto the litigation group, thinking that it was the best route to a full-time offer; I didn’t even do one corporate assignment all summer, which I regret (and in the end, it didn’t matter, because everyone got offers and none were laid off when they later joined the firm, as far as I know). I got an offer to join the litigation group.

The litigation group at my firm did mostly commercial and securities, with some white collar/gov’t investigations, IP, and adversarial bankruptcy litigation. So as a junior associate I worked on a healthy mix of matters. My first year was spent doing typical junior lit associate stuff – document review and one-off legal research/writing assignments. It wasn’t the most exciting stuff in the world, but the novelty of a relatively large paycheck made me perfectly content. When I was a poor graduate student, I didn’t have a smartphone, didn’t have a flatscreen tv, couldn’t take vacations, and was stretching my finances to live in a not-trendy outer-borough neighborhood of NYC – the $160k is not balling, but it’s a hell of a lot more than the $25k I had been living on in my mid-20’s!

Early on, I began to bond with a junior partner who was not that much older than me. It so happened that he handled all the litigation matters for a rainmaking transactional partner’s big client. Mostly it was small stuff (e.g., non-party subpoenas in securities cases), but then one day the client became involved in a major dispute (almost $1B at stake) with several other parties. They tapped the junior partner, and due to my strong relationship with him and also some staffing quirks, suddenly as a second-year I found myself as the lead associate on a major complex case in a niche area of litigation (think antitrust). I was given a lot of substantive assignments (e.g., first crack at drafting dispositive motions; interviewing witnesses and depo prep). Of course, I had to do a lot of crapwork too, like manage a massive document review; sometimes I was able to delegate to first years or even associates at my level, but I also had to review a ton myself. On the other hand, it allowed me to be the “document guy” on the case, and I thus became even more indispensable.

Toward the end of my second year, I realized that I was genuinely interested in the niche area that my big case involved, so I lateraled to another v50 that had a well-established practice group in that area. I have been generally happy with the work over the past few years. I have had the opportunity to take about 10 depositions (substantive ones, not document custodians), and defend several; I have argued discovery motions in court; I’ve drafted some summary judgment and other major motions; and I’ve had some good client interaction. Yes, there is still a lot of scut-work; even though document review and legal research are no longer major sources of hours for me, I always have to do some, and I have to spend a lot of time managing the junior associates who typically do it. So minute for minute, it’s not always, or even usually, an exciting or fun job. But I’ve been lucky to work for partners who value my opinion, and it is “fun” to strategize with them about litigation and client relations. My cases involve complex legal issues and fact patterns, and at its best (e.g., drafting a dispositive brief or preparing for oral argument), it is intellectually stimulating and I feel like I’m accomplishing something; at its worst, it is boring drudgery but there are plenty of people to commiserate with and the pay is relatively good.

I’ve managed to maintain a relatively ok work-life balance for Biglaw. I’ve never billed 2000 hours; I’ve come close a couple of years, but several years I’ve been significantly under. I know this has to change in short order if I want to make a serious run at partner. For a couple of years, I was “siloed” or “warehoused” by a partner who monopolized my time and wouldn’t let me be staffed on other matters, but he didn’t have enough work to get me to 2000. A couple of other years, I was just happy flying under the radar and recession-era bonuses weren’t large enough to motivate me to go above and beyond to hit 2000. Also, generally, I think it’s harder for litigators to bill high hours than for corporate associates, except when they are in the midst of depositions or trial. My sense is that corporate associates can bill for their epic 6-hour conference calls, and for the time they spend waiting around for opposing counsel to turn around a mark-up of a document (OP can correct me if I’m wrong about that). Whereas I have always gotten a lot of pressure NOT to bill for a lot of my sitting-around time. Of course, I know plenty of general commercial litigators at my firm who bill well over 2000 hours and who routinely come to the office early, leave late, and have no lives on weekends. I know litigators who bill 2300, 2400 hours. I just never felt like I had to do that, so I didn't, and I'm still here, I think because people generally like my work.

Additionally, I have been fortunate to have worked for generally humane people. Sure, there have been a couple of a**hole partners who have had no compunction about emailing me in the middle of the night or on the weekend with a wholly unnecessary question/assignment. Sure, I’ve had to cancel or modify vacations a couple of times, and cancel weeknight or weekend plans more than a few times. Sure, I have pulled all-nighters for work, and there have been periods when I am in the office until midnight for several days in a row. Sure I’ve been yelled at by partners and even clients. But these instances have been relatively few and far between. In general, I can leave the office by 7:30 or so, I can do work at home as necessary, and I very rarely come in on the weekends. And I do not find the work mind-numbingly boring, most of the time. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t rather be doing something else – of course I would. But I can’t think of anything else that I am currently qualified for that will pay me this amount of money.

I do not know if I want the partner lifestyle. The partners I’ve worked with work are true workaholics, and bill way more than associates. They are also constantly stressed about having enough business. That freaks me out. I am not sure I have the passion to force myself to do it. In-house options for litigators (at my level, at least) also haven’t appealed to me so far. I’ve actually gotten two in-house offers in the past year – one for a litigation position at a Fortune 10 company, one for a more generalist position. They both paid around $140k, and they both seemed boring as hell – same sh*t every day, no real room for advancement (at the F10 place, the senior people had been entrenched in their jobs for 10+ years). It depressed the hell out of me. At least at a top law firm, there is very sophisticated legal work, if you can get it. What I really don’t want, though, is to wash out of Biglaw and then have to try to make partner at a much smaller firm. To do what is necessary (hours-wise and business development-wise), but make a ton less money, is the worst of all worlds. So I am concerned for my future. But the point of my post is this: the past five and a half years as a litigator at large firm have been relatively enjoyable and interesting, and I don't regret it as of now, even if the future is uncertain.

[theventriloquist]

Once you get to law school, you'll figure out who the people are that post on TLS regularly. You'll remember this thread. And you'll feel better.

Umm why? Sorry I just want to know why I will feel better at law school? Are the reports untrue? Will my options be good? These employment outcomes sound utterly terrifying

I know some very level-headed and hardworking people in real life who are currently in biglaw and they tell me what they're doing is not sustainable. Some people cope better than others, but just look at the attrition rate in biglaw. It's clearly not for everyone - heck, even for most people. And these were already "winners" with good academic pedigree/top grades/both.

I would like to get into BigLaw and use that money to buy restaurants and small businesses (ie. small cafes, bars, etc). You can also use those for tax write-offs, thus keeping more of my biglaw bucks. then after i leave, i'll tend to my various small businesses.

I have good experience running small businesses; come from a family who runs various small businesses. You need pretty high upfront capital, however, which is what biglaw will provide

[heythatslife]

Once you get to law school, you'll figure out who the people are that post on TLS regularly. You'll remember this thread. And you'll feel better.

Umm why? Sorry I just want to know why I will feel better at law school? Are the reports untrue? Will my options be good? These employment outcomes sound utterly terrifying

I know some very level-headed and hardworking people in real life who are currently in biglaw and they tell me what they're doing is not sustainable. Some people cope better than others, but just look at the attrition rate in biglaw. It's clearly not for everyone - heck, even for most people. And these were already "winners" with good academic pedigree/top grades/both.

I would like to get into BigLaw and use that money to buy restaurants and small businesses (ie. small cafes, bars, etc). You can also use those for tax write-offs, thus keeping more of my biglaw bucks. then after i leave, i'll tend to my various small businesses.

I have good experience running small businesses; come from a family who runs various small businesses. You need pretty high upfront capital, however, which is what biglaw will provide

In that case, don't start by digging yourself into a hole where you're burning cash for 3 years and then spending the next 5+ years trying to bring yourself back to 0 net worth. Also, I'm not sure if you get just tax writeoffs for buying a business like that.

[Mr. Peanutbutter]

LOL at having time to even interview a general manager as a third year in big law

[theventriloquist]

Once you get to law school, you'll figure out who the people are that post on TLS regularly. You'll remember this thread. And you'll feel better.

Umm why? Sorry I just want to know why I will feel better at law school? Are the reports untrue? Will my options be good? These employment outcomes sound utterly terrifying

I know some very level-headed and hardworking people in real life who are currently in biglaw and they tell me what they're doing is not sustainable. Some people cope better than others, but just look at the attrition rate in biglaw. It's clearly not for everyone - heck, even for most people. And these were already "winners" with good academic pedigree/top grades/both.

I would like to get into BigLaw and use that money to buy restaurants and small businesses (ie. small cafes, bars, etc). You can also use those for tax write-offs, thus keeping more of my biglaw bucks. then after i leave, i'll tend to my various small businesses.

I have good experience running small businesses; come from a family who runs various small businesses. You need pretty high upfront capital, however, which is what biglaw will provide

In that case, don't start by digging yourself into a hole where you're burning cash for 3 years and then spending the next 5+ years trying to bring yourself back to 0 net worth. Also, I'm not sure if you get just tax writeoffs for buying a business like that.

I'm not going to have any loans.

[A. Nony Mouse]

LOL at having time to even interview a general manager as a third year in big law

Also doesn't your employer need to know about your businesses and decide if they present a conflict of interest? (They may not, but still.)

[theventriloquist]

LOL at having time to even interview a general manager as a third year in big law

Also doesn't your employer need to know about your businesses and decide if they present a conflict of interest? (They may not, but still.)

Having small businesses here and their won't be an issue.

I know someone who is an accountant, who owns small businesses. The time he spends on the restruants he owns are write off's. I know some pepple who drive for Uber, just to write off their income. they make money on uber through tax deduction. It seems like a good plan, expecially since I don't have to worry about debt.

Living in a biglaw city comes w/ high tax but if u own small businesses, you can have massive write-offs.

[jingosaur]

LOL at having time to even interview a general manager as a third year in big law

Also doesn't your employer need to know about your businesses and decide if they present a conflict of interest? (They may not, but still.)

Having small businesses here and their won't be an issue.

I know someone who is an accountant, who owns small businesses. The time he spends on the restruants he owns are write off's. I know some pepple who drive for Uber, just to write off their income. they make money on uber through tax deduction. It seems like a good plan, expecially since I don't have to worry about debt.

Living in a biglaw city comes w/ high tax but if u own small businesses, you can have massive write-offs.

I don't think you know what the fuck you're talking about.

[A. Nony Mouse]

LOL at having time to even interview a general manager as a third year in big law

Also doesn't your employer need to know about your businesses and decide if they present a conflict of interest? (They may not, but still.)

Having small businesses here and their won't be an issue.

I know someone who is an accountant, who owns small businesses. The time he spends on the restruants he owns are write off's. I know some pepple who drive for Uber, just to write off their income. they make money on uber through tax deduction. It seems like a good plan, expecially since I don't have to worry about debt.

Living in a biglaw city comes w/ high tax but if u own small businesses, you can have massive write-offs.

No, this isn't about taxes. This is about your employer (the big law firm) saying that you can't own your own businesses and work at the firm because it poses a conflict of interest, as a matter of legal ethics. (To be clear, I don't know that what you propose would be a conflict, but I also don't know how you'd have the time to put enough work into a small business to make it profitable, on top of being a big law associate, which is a very heavy, and unpredictable, workload.)

[Danger Zone]

Running a business is a full time job. Working in biglaw is two.

[Mr. Peanutbutter]

I mean, don't get me wrong internet rando, I like your idea in theory, but it's almost midnight and I'm still at the office and it's not like I could be like "LOL sorry couldn't stay have to go manage my trinket store, it's a great tax write off!"

Also, conflicts are a real thing and something about an attorney constantly being flagged because they moonlight as a laundromat owner would probably raise a lot of eyebrows.

[Johann]

Running a business is a full time job. Working in biglaw is two.

representing themselves in a tax audit will be their 3rd full time job (or i guess more lawyer fees to write off).

[cavalier1138]

I would like to get into BigLaw and use that money to buy restaurants and small businesses (ie. small cafes, bars, etc). You can also use those for tax write-offs, thus keeping more of my biglaw bucks. then after i leave, i'll tend to my various small businesses.

I have good experience running small businesses; come from a family who runs various small businesses. You need pretty high upfront capital, however, which is what biglaw will provide

Why do your career goals change every week? Last time you posted, you wanted to work in the pharmaceutical industry. Before that, it was investment banking.

The only clear trend is that you don't want to be a lawyer. So don't go to law school.

And as has already been stated, the run-small-businesses-while-being-a-biglaw-associate plan is a monumentally stupid idea for about a thousand reasons.

[theventriloquist]

I would like to get into BigLaw and use that money to buy restaurants and small businesses (ie. small cafes, bars, etc). You can also use those for tax write-offs, thus keeping more of my biglaw bucks. then after i leave, i'll tend to my various small businesses.

I have good experience running small businesses; come from a family who runs various small businesses. You need pretty high upfront capital, however, which is what biglaw will provide

Why do your career goals change every week? Last time you posted, you wanted to work in the pharmaceutical industry. Before that, it was investment banking.

The only clear trend is that you don't want to be a lawyer. So don't go to law school.

And as has already been stated, the run-small-businesses-while-being-a-biglaw-associate plan is a monumentally stupid idea for about a thousand reasons.

I want to be a lawyer, I am just keeping my options open. I'll be thinking more about this. I'm going to apply this cycle, and consider my offers. Ownig a small business is easy if you know the ins' and outs. I know of a number of doctors--such as surgeons--who own small businesses. If they can perform surgery full time and still own multiple small businesses, I am sure a lawyer can as well

[theventriloquist]

I mean, don't get me wrong internet rando, I like your idea in theory, but it's almost midnight and I'm still at the office and it's not like I could be like "LOL sorry couldn't stay have to go manage my trinket store, it's a great tax write off!"

Also, conflicts are a real thing and something about an attorney constantly being flagged because they moonlight as a laundromat owner would probably raise a lot of eyebrows.

I mean I'm not 100% sure ok? I am just thinking about that. I'm working on getting into law school now. I'd only go to a T15 one, considering the job market. But that is my long-term goal if I manage to work at BigLaw--a big if.