So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

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throwaway_

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by throwaway_ » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:17 pm

tomwatts wrote:This also explains part of why biglaw sucks so much. As an associate, you're basically just a cog in the machine trying to make FamousPartner look good. You don't actually get to do anything real; if you go out and show your face in court or wherever, the client will be like, "Who is this clown? I paid for FamousPartner, not this bozo!" So the work is pretty mundane and boring pretty much all the time.
This is well argued, and definitely part of the answer, but still doesn't quite feel like a complete response.

Investment banking and consulting run similar business models, but the "cogs" in the former feel that they're getting something worthwhile out of their devil's bargain, and anecdotally the cogs in the latter actually seem quite happy! There's something else specific to biglaw that causes it to be such a miserable career, even compared to other professional services.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by PMan99 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:03 pm

throwaway_ wrote:
tomwatts wrote:This also explains part of why biglaw sucks so much. As an associate, you're basically just a cog in the machine trying to make FamousPartner look good. You don't actually get to do anything real; if you go out and show your face in court or wherever, the client will be like, "Who is this clown? I paid for FamousPartner, not this bozo!" So the work is pretty mundane and boring pretty much all the time.
This is well argued, and definitely part of the answer, but still doesn't quite feel like a complete response.

Investment banking and consulting run similar business models, but the "cogs" in the former feel that they're getting something worthwhile out of their devil's bargain, and anecdotally the cogs in the latter actually seem quite happy! There's something else specific to biglaw that causes it to be such a miserable career, even compared to other professional services.
IB (at the analyst level, and to a much lesser extent the associate level) and consulting are largely stepping stones to the next part of your career. So you put up with the crap work and lifestyle for a few years and get to move on to better pastures, however you define that. Biglaw has the same up-or-out pressures and intense time commitment but lacks the exit ops.

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existentialcrisis

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by existentialcrisis » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:40 pm

PMan99 wrote:
throwaway_ wrote:
tomwatts wrote:This also explains part of why biglaw sucks so much. As an associate, you're basically just a cog in the machine trying to make FamousPartner look good. You don't actually get to do anything real; if you go out and show your face in court or wherever, the client will be like, "Who is this clown? I paid for FamousPartner, not this bozo!" So the work is pretty mundane and boring pretty much all the time.
This is well argued, and definitely part of the answer, but still doesn't quite feel like a complete response.

Investment banking and consulting run similar business models, but the "cogs" in the former feel that they're getting something worthwhile out of their devil's bargain, and anecdotally the cogs in the latter actually seem quite happy! There's something else specific to biglaw that causes it to be such a miserable career, even compared to other professional services.
IB (at the analyst level, and to a much lesser extent the associate level) and consulting are largely stepping stones to the next part of your career. So you put up with the crap work and lifestyle for a few years and get to move on to better pastures, however you define that. Biglaw has the same up-or-out pressures and intense time commitment but lacks the exit ops.
Yea this. I know a lot of people in IB and all of them hate/hated it and were doing it purely for the exits. For some (most?) people, it ends up being worth it, but lol at tons of people in banking be fulfilled.

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RParadela

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by RParadela » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:44 pm

What do some of the high-end plaintiff firms start at salary wise?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by FascinatedWanderer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:32 pm

The other thing people in this thread don't seem to realize is that banking pays WAY more than biglaw. First year analysts at bulge brackets out of undergrad are clearing 120-130 minimum. By the time you're three years out of undergrad easily making 200k+ if you stuck around, and that's without the opportunity cost of 3 years of law school. If you exit to private equity your comp blows big law comp out of the water.

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landshoes

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by landshoes » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:49 pm

RParadela wrote:What do some of the high-end plaintiff firms start at salary wise?
They're exactly like biglaw in terms of hours, dick partners, and shitty QOL. Except less financially stable and no lock-step.

If you like the work, mazel tov, but they're not some idyllic refuge from biglaw lit.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by dryoasis » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:57 pm

FascinatedWanderer wrote:The other thing people in this thread don't seem to realize is that banking pays WAY more than biglaw. First year analysts at bulge brackets out of undergrad are clearing 120-130 minimum. By the time you're three years out of undergrad easily making 200k+ if you stuck around, and that's without the opportunity cost of 3 years of law school. If you exit to private equity your comp blows big law comp out of the water.
This is laughably false. First year analysts are not "clearing 120-130 minimum." Base pay for mid tier bulge bracket (not Goldman or JP) is 75-85k with bonus ranging from 10-20k.


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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by FascinatedWanderer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:14 pm

dryoasis wrote:
FascinatedWanderer wrote:The other thing people in this thread don't seem to realize is that banking pays WAY more than biglaw. First year analysts at bulge brackets out of undergrad are clearing 120-130 minimum. By the time you're three years out of undergrad easily making 200k+ if you stuck around, and that's without the opportunity cost of 3 years of law school. If you exit to private equity your comp blows big law comp out of the water.
This is laughably false. First year analysts are not "clearing 120-130 minimum." Base pay for mid tier bulge bracket (not Goldman or JP) is 75-85k with bonus ranging from 10-20k.

It's your bonus estimates that are "laughably false."

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dryoasis

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by dryoasis » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:31 pm

Dude read the ranges, most straight out of undergrad analysts are not clearing 120k. Some quants, exceptionally talented analysts can make more than the median, but total comp tends to plateau at 100-110k.

I was a mid market analyst, I know not quite bulge bracket, but this was generally the case

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by tomwatts » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:44 pm

RParadela wrote:What do some of the high-end plaintiff firms start at salary wise?
The other person who responded to this didn't even attempt to answer the question, so I'll try to take this.

It varies kind of a lot. Some firms don't hire first-year associates; they want you to go get trained with some combination of clerkships/fellowships/biglaw/other plaintiffs' firms first. Some firms will hire first-years, but they hire them as fellows, not associates, so they pay them fellowship money, not associate money. (Usually they will hire you as an associate after some time getting trained as a fellow.) Others do hire first-years. I was interviewing to start as a third-year, and my offers ranged from 125K to 180K. They're generally not lockstep, and the salaries aren't released to Vault or whatever, so it's a lot harder to generalize than in biglaw.

But salary is potentially misleading at a lot of these places. Your total compensation can be anywhere from mostly salary to mostly bonuses. At the 125K place, everyone there (including associates after I got an offer) swore that bonuses brought you up to about equal what you would make in biglaw — at least in an average year. (It fluctuates a bit depending on how the firm does.)

The general trend is that you start out making less than you would in biglaw and, after a few years, you end up making anywhere from somewhat less to somewhat more than you would in an average biglaw firm. But it varies a lot depending on the type of work; if you're doing civil rights cases, you make less than if you're doing, say, securities. (Probably a lot less.)
Last edited by tomwatts on Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FascinatedWanderer

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by FascinatedWanderer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:46 pm

dryoasis wrote:Dude read the ranges, most straight out of undergrad analysts are not clearing 120k. Some quants, exceptionally talented analysts can make more than the median, but total comp tends to plateau at 100-110k.

I was a mid market analyst, I know not quite bulge bracket, but this was generally the case
I'm reading the ranges, but the stats on those sites indicate that the average comp is 10-20K higher than the plateau you posit. I had friends at MS, JPM, Stifel, GS, Lazard and others and they all definitely cleared over 110K their first year out.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by BernieTrump » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:06 pm

dryoasis wrote:
FascinatedWanderer wrote:The other thing people in this thread don't seem to realize is that banking pays WAY more than biglaw. First year analysts at bulge brackets out of undergrad are clearing 120-130 minimum. By the time you're three years out of undergrad easily making 200k+ if you stuck around, and that's without the opportunity cost of 3 years of law school. If you exit to private equity your comp blows big law comp out of the water.
This is laughably false. First year analysts are not "clearing 120-130 minimum." Base pay for mid tier bulge bracket (not Goldman or JP) is 75-85k with bonus ranging from 10-20k.
Depends on where you are and what you're doing. For real bulge bracket in the mid-bucket bonus tier, a brand new college grad (full year) would be around $130-145K+ all in. Top performers can do better. Outlier low performers can do worse. This is completely Googleable if you don't believe me.

But: Comp moves somewhat randomly outside of the true bulge bracket (even at places where it's hard to get in). Some smaller shops will have as big or bigger bonuses than GS juniors. Some brand name banks occasionally go outlier low (CS, Deutsche, Jefferies in recent years), and in some cases even go --no bonus--, though they usually protect their analysts and associates from that. It also really matters *what* you're doing. You'd be surprised how many analysts/associates/VPs who you think (and who lead you to believe they) are in the investment banking division are actually in some related role. In most cases, comp is lower for them. Even traders at places like GS make less at junior level.

That's all a sideshow to the real point. It doesn't matter if it's $120 or $160K. It's higher than -$80K, and they can use it as a stepping stone to get desirable jobs (strategy, private equity, venture funds, bus. dev).

Biglaw alumni by contrast cannot step into anything but more law at less pay (and would kill for the exits bankers have).

That's the difference. Working hard to go somewhere vs. working hard to move backwards.


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Nagster5

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Nagster5 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:13 am

What's your take on wachtell? Everything you've said hold true or do they have better prospects? Is the work less mind numbing or is corporate just a wasteland across the board? Thanks for the thread.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by BernieTrump » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:39 pm

Nagster5 wrote:What's your take on wachtell? Everything you've said hold true or do they have better prospects? Is the work less mind numbing or is corporate just a wasteland across the board? Thanks for the thread.

Substance -- It's all corporate law. Wachtell is on the same deals as Cravath, Davis, PW and the rest. They're doing the same legal work. It's just as mind numbing. Every once in awhile they'll do something interesting, but that's the top of the top of the partnership and the top litigators doing that. Corporate work is corporate work. Wachtell is checking the same cross references as Cravath.

Exits -- The name helps a small amount, but you're still far behind an MBA who worked in bus development at a tire distributorship for any business job. Name helps a lot in getting corporate legal jobs, but legal jobs are soul shrinking. They also do a lot of public work, and let M&A people get more familiar with securities law than many firms. Corporate legal departments triple love that.

Hours -- The stories are true. Get to their web site and pick a few random mid associates. Call their office as a "wrong number" at 11:30 pm randomly. They'll be there every, single, time.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by predsfan12 » Sat May 26, 2018 12:48 pm

BernieTrump wrote:
Nagster5 wrote:What's your take on wachtell? Everything you've said hold true or do they have better prospects? Is the work less mind numbing or is corporate just a wasteland across the board? Thanks for the thread.

Substance -- It's all corporate law. Wachtell is on the same deals as Cravath, Davis, PW and the rest. They're doing the same legal work. It's just as mind numbing. Every once in awhile they'll do something interesting, but that's the top of the top of the partnership and the top litigators doing that. Corporate work is corporate work. Wachtell is checking the same cross references as Cravath.

Exits -- The name helps a small amount, but you're still far behind an MBA who worked in bus development at a tire distributorship for any business job. Name helps a lot in getting corporate legal jobs, but legal jobs are soul shrinking. They also do a lot of public work, and let M&A people get more familiar with securities law than many firms. Corporate legal departments triple love that.

Hours -- The stories are true. Get to their web site and pick a few random mid associates. Call their office as a "wrong number" at 11:30 pm randomly. They'll be there every, single, time.
First of all, really appreciate you taking the time to do this. I'm at the same school you graduated from and just finished my first year. Currently splitting my summer at two firms in a mid-tier legal market. The people here don't seem to hate their job, but it's summer and anyone can act happy to sell the summer associates on the firm. I have two big questions:

1) Did you have any idea your life would be like this based on your time as a summer associate?
2) What do you know about the life of a corporate attorney in a smaller market at a more regional firm? My firms still pay incredibly well, just not top market salary/

Thanks

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Johnnybgoode92 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:56 pm

Necroing a fascinating read. Do any current associates agree with this analysis of transactional work?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by dabigchina » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:12 am

I feel like I posted to this thread when I was a bright eyed law student questioning how truly shit biglaw transactional is.

I take it all back. I cosign everything Bernie trump has posted itt. The only thing I question is his analysis of ibd exit ops. I feel like they can have somewhat limited opportunities when it comes to chill in house roles in the same way that biglaw has. I guess the upside is they can make stupid money transitioning to the buy side, but as I get older I realize I no longer give a shit about money and just want a reasonable middle class lifestyle.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Johnnybgoode92 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:14 pm

dabigchina wrote:I feel like I posted to this thread when I was a bright eyed law student questioning how truly shit biglaw transactional is.

I take it all back. I cosign everything Bernie trump has posted itt. The only thing I question is his analysis of ibd exit ops. I feel like they can have somewhat limited opportunities when it comes to chill in house roles in the same way that biglaw has. I guess the upside is they can make stupid money transitioning to the buy side, but as I get older I realize I no longer give a shit about money and just want a reasonable middle class lifestyle.
Do you believe most of your colleagues from your firm or former classmates who took the transactional route would agree with you? What would you tell a 3L with a big law offer to join a corporate department but little interest in taking this path?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by dabigchina » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:56 pm

Johnnybgoode92 wrote:
dabigchina wrote:I feel like I posted to this thread when I was a bright eyed law student questioning how truly shit biglaw transactional is.

I take it all back. I cosign everything Bernie trump has posted itt. The only thing I question is his analysis of ibd exit ops. I feel like they can have somewhat limited opportunities when it comes to chill in house roles in the same way that biglaw has. I guess the upside is they can make stupid money transitioning to the buy side, but as I get older I realize I no longer give a shit about money and just want a reasonable middle class lifestyle.
Do you believe most of your colleagues from your firm or former classmates who took the transactional route would agree with you? What would you tell a 3L with a big law offer to join a corporate department but little interest in taking this path?
Put in your 2-4 years and go in house asap. Lifestyle isn't necessarily chill per se, but it's at least sustainable generally.

Pay off your loans and save aggressively. Get out of the mindset of thinking just because you make 190, you can buy fancy clothes, toys, go on crazy vacations, etc.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Johnnybgoode92 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:56 am

BernieTrump wrote:
sener212 wrote:
BernieTrump wrote:The above is correct. People don't leave for something better for all sorts of reasons, but the important thing is they don't leave for something better.

Some people get golden handcuffed. They have a kid. They're in a city they can't leave. They have a mortgage.

Many swap firms searching for a better life. I've never moved, but I've seen many make this mistake. When you're miserable, any movement seems like progress, and the easiest move is to another firm. To many's surprise, the next firm is worse. By the time they stop looking they're in their early or mid 30s, on the 2-4th firm, and have been a lawyer for ten years. At that point, it takes a "hard reset" to get out, and not many people want that (even if it is possible and usually it is not). They frown and then accept their lot in life.

It's tough to find time to look. Any given Sunday, after your 14 hours in the office, it's easier to open a bottle of wine, have two glasses and read the news for a few minutes before bed. It's difficult to spend your very few waking hours not in the office on precise cover letters and networking. It's even more difficult given that 99/100 perfectly tailored cover letters won't even be read because they'll see the JD and pass on you.

Most importantly, good exits are rare. Even if you want to stay in law, the $300K, 9-5 in-house job is a myth. I've seen maybe 5 people in jobs that fit this in my career. Hours may be better in-house generally, but there's a special type of ennui to doing the same form contract 20 times a day (with no ability to respond to comments except by reading a script) for 20 years, with no hope for advancement.

If you want out of law (is anyone's true calling really moving commas, losing self respect for yourself and annoying the juniors by pointing out they didn't follow firm protocol for defined terms and fighting with opposing counsel about the precise wording of an escrow that will not ever matter?) good luck. Nobody will hire a JD in 2017. People don't go after their true calling because those doors are, for almost every true calling, closed after starting as a firm lawyer.
Thanks for the perspective. While I understand and appreciate that some of this is true, what a terrible way to view your career/life. Here's one thing I'll guarantee: People with this defeatist attitude will never find success and fulfillment long-term in their careers. Maybe the people with a more positive outlook won't either, but I believe at least they have a shot.

As an aside, I work in biglaw, plan on doing the small firm thing at some point in hopes of doing more trial work, and then plan on pursuing more entrepreneurial non-law options after that. Not
sure exactly how that will turn out (how could I be?). I'm assume, based on this post, you'll assert it will go very poorly. I don't agree.
You won't believe me, but I was the sunniest guy on earth in college and law school. Also through the first 24 months of biglaw. I've mentioned I was one of the head recruiting associates. You don't get there without being someone that projects happiness. Slowly but surely, you realize there's no escape . It will grind on you. You'll wake up as a 2L during a summer associateship thinking of the work you saw even the senior associates doing. You'll have huge second guesses. You'll start anyway. It will get even worse. Slowly at first, in the shower, in the subway, when you're just thinking to yourself. The discontent will grow every day. At the end not a moment will go by that you won't think you're wasting your life moving commas that have not once mattered in ten years of moving them. You'll have been on ten years of conference calls without having made even a minor difference in any deal. You'll have missed your 20s and 30s for it. You don't need to believe me. Print the thread. Stick it in your bottom drawer. On your last day at a firm, come back, bump this and let me know if I was right. I like my odds.
It’s the part about the work senior associates do that rings true to me. It appeared mind numbing and not commensurate with requiring three years of post-BA education. I understand the appeal of the in-house route but that has its downsides from what I’ve gathered (lack of upward mobility, the difficulty in acquiring new skills applicable to business). I don’t intend to demean the legal profession or in-house attorneys. My gripe is that I spent three years of my youth studying diligently to pursue a sub-optimal career path (corporate law; litigation does not interest me). Fault is mine (buyer beware), but any insight on how to get an entry-level job in business/management/investments etc. would be much appreciated.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by ProbablyWaitListed » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:04 pm

God this shit is scary

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Johnnybgoode92 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 am

ProbablyWaitListed wrote:God this shit is scary
My regard for transactional practice is rather low. But it would be tolerable if you were not required to go to school for three years to engage in this line of work. If I had spent eight hours on Edgar before starting like Bernietrump recommended I’d be in a much better spot. Some of the best advice I’ve seen here.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by nealric » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:47 pm

ProbablyWaitListed wrote:God this shit is scary
The people who post in these threads tend to be the malcontents. If you are happy with your job, you are probably not posting on TLS about it. I'm in tax, not corporate, but under the transactional umbrella. I see what those folks do (and was officemates with a corporate associate for the first two years before we got private offices). I have a family member who is a corporate partner.

The sort of experience this thread rants and rave about does exist, but it's not universal. I think things tend to be better if you avoid the massive NYC M&A shops. Smaller and more niche groups allow for better experiences early on.

As far as in-house. I have one of the supposedly mythical in-house roles. I can't say everything is perfect, but it's a very good gig. Almost nothing I do is routine. The biggest downside of in-house work is the politics, but it's not like politics don't exist in every work setting.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Johnnybgoode92 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:15 pm

nealric wrote:
ProbablyWaitListed wrote:God this shit is scary
The people who post in these threads tend to be the malcontents. If you are happy with your job, you are probably not posting on TLS about it. I'm in tax, not corporate, but under the transactional umbrella. I see what those folks do (and was officemates with a corporate associate for the first two years before we got private offices). I have a family member who is a corporate partner.

The sort of experience this thread rants and rave about does exist, but it's not universal. I think things tend to be better if you avoid the massive NYC M&A shops. Smaller and more niche groups allow for better experiences early on.

As far as in-house. I have one of the supposedly mythical in-house roles. I can't say everything is perfect, but it's a very good gig. Almost nothing I do is routine. The biggest downside of in-house work is the politics, but it's not like politics don't exist in every work setting.
I’m glad you like your situation. Aside from your anecdotes, however, many studies and surveys have been cited in this thread indicating that law has some of the lowest professional satisfaction rates. The amount of lawyers who regret their careers is astronomical compared to the overwhelming majority of other professions. To blanket over that fact and not even try to explain it is not helpful.

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