So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum

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dabigchina

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by dabigchina » Wed May 03, 2017 3:21 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Mlk&Ckies wrote:LOL at having time to even interview a general manager as a third year in big law
Also doesn't your employer need to know about your businesses and decide if they present a conflict of interest? (They may not, but still.)
Having small businesses here and their won't be an issue.

I know someone who is an accountant, who owns small businesses. The time he spends on the restruants he owns are write off's. I know some pepple who drive for Uber, just to write off their income. they make money on uber through tax deduction. It seems like a good plan, expecially since I don't have to worry about debt.

Living in a biglaw city comes w/ high tax but if u own small businesses, you can have massive write-offs.
I don't think you know what a write off is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEL65gywwHQ

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Mr. Peanutbutter » Wed May 03, 2017 3:43 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
Mlk&Ckies wrote:I mean, don't get me wrong internet rando, I like your idea in theory, but it's almost midnight and I'm still at the office and it's not like I could be like "LOL sorry couldn't stay have to go manage my trinket store, it's a great tax write off!"

Also, conflicts are a real thing and something about an attorney constantly being flagged because they moonlight as a laundromat owner would probably raise a lot of eyebrows.
I mean I'm not 100% sure ok? I am just thinking about that. I'm working on getting into law school now. I'd only go to a T15 one, considering the job market. But that is my long-term goal if I manage to work at BigLaw--a big if.
This is a very bad goal.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed May 03, 2017 3:47 pm

theventriloquist wrote:I want to be a lawyer, I am just keeping my options open. I'll be thinking more about this. I'm going to apply this cycle, and consider my offers. Ownig a small business is easy if you know the ins' and outs. I know of a number of doctors--such as surgeons--who own small businesses. If they can perform surgery full time and still own multiple small businesses, I am sure a lawyer can as well
Quoted for posterity.

You've gotten a ton of feedback on these boards already about your multiple ideas for career paths. Have you noticed that literally no one thinks that these are feasible ideas? It's not like you have a bunch of random people posting here. You've had practicing attorneys in this thread telling you that this is not a good plan.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by blueapple » Wed May 03, 2017 3:53 pm

theventriloquist wrote:
heythatslife wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
heythatslife wrote:
Po$eidon wrote:
UpandDown97 wrote:
Once you get to law school, you'll figure out who the people are that post on TLS regularly. You'll remember this thread. And you'll feel better.
Umm why? Sorry I just want to know why I will feel better at law school? Are the reports untrue? Will my options be good? These employment outcomes sound utterly terrifying
I know some very level-headed and hardworking people in real life who are currently in biglaw and they tell me what they're doing is not sustainable. Some people cope better than others, but just look at the attrition rate in biglaw. It's clearly not for everyone - heck, even for most people. And these were already "winners" with good academic pedigree/top grades/both.
I would like to get into BigLaw and use that money to buy restaurants and small businesses (ie. small cafes, bars, etc). You can also use those for tax write-offs, thus keeping more of my biglaw bucks. then after i leave, i'll tend to my various small businesses.

I have good experience running small businesses; come from a family who runs various small businesses. You need pretty high upfront capital, however, which is what biglaw will provide
In that case, don't start by digging yourself into a hole where you're burning cash for 3 years and then spending the next 5+ years trying to bring yourself back to 0 net worth. Also, I'm not sure if you get just tax writeoffs for buying a business like that.
I'm not going to have any loans.
If you're not going to have any loans, why don't you take that money you'd be putting towards school and just use it to start your small businesses?
Last edited by blueapple on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theventriloquist

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by theventriloquist » Wed May 03, 2017 3:56 pm

blueapple wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
heythatslife wrote:
theventriloquist wrote:
heythatslife wrote:
Po$eidon wrote:
UpandDown97 wrote:
Once you get to law school, you'll figure out who the people are that post on TLS regularly. You'll remember this thread. And you'll feel better.
Umm why? Sorry I just want to know why I will feel better at law school? Are the reports untrue? Will my options be good? These employment outcomes sound utterly terrifying
I know some very level-headed and hardworking people in real life who are currently in biglaw and they tell me what they're doing is not sustainable. Some people cope better than others, but just look at the attrition rate in biglaw. It's clearly not for everyone - heck, even for most people. And these were already "winners" with good academic pedigree/top grades/both.
I would like to get into BigLaw and use that money to buy restaurants and small businesses (ie. small cafes, bars, etc). You can also use those for tax write-offs, thus keeping more of my biglaw bucks. then after i leave, i'll tend to my various small businesses.

I have good experience running small businesses; come from a family who runs various small businesses. You need pretty high upfront capital, however, which is what biglaw will provide
In that case, don't start by digging yourself into a hole where you're burning cash for 3 years and then spending the next 5+ years trying to bring yourself back to 0 net worth. Also, I'm not sure if you get just tax writeoffs for buying a business like that.
I'm not going to have any loans.
If you're not going to have any loans, why don't you take that money you'd be putting towards school and just use it to start your small businesses?
I mean if I get some money I shoulden't. It depends but even if i do it would be minimal. Small business is just a far-out thought. You need money for that. I'm interested in law. I'll continue to read cases, apply, and see what happens. If I get offers, I'll come back here and aks for opinions.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by nunumaster » Wed May 03, 2017 5:29 pm

theventriloquist wrote: I mean if I get some money I shoulden't. It depends but even if i do it would be minimal. Small business is just a far-out thought. You need money for that. I'm interested in law. I'll continue to read cases, apply, and see what happens. If I get offers, I'll come back here and aks for opinions.
Why are you reading cases before being in law school? Don't go to law school, trust me dude. You can build up capital quicker in the 3 years you're not in law school. What kind of college degree do you have and how much do you currently make? Also, you think you're "interested in the law." But if what you want to do is corporate transactional law, no, you're really not.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by mvp99 » Wed May 03, 2017 5:55 pm

nunumaster wrote:
theventriloquist wrote: I mean if I get some money I shoulden't. It depends but even if i do it would be minimal. Small business is just a far-out thought. You need money for that. I'm interested in law. I'll continue to read cases, apply, and see what happens. If I get offers, I'll come back here and aks for opinions.
Why are you reading cases before being in law school? Don't go to law school, trust me dude. You can build up capital quicker in the 3 years you're not in law school. What kind of college degree do you have and how much do you currently make? Also, you think you're "interested in the law." But if what you want to do is corporate transactional law, no, you're really not.
Reading cases before understanding how to read cases and how the prof grades is a nice road to failure. Dont do it either way.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by carsondalywashere » Wed May 03, 2017 9:31 pm

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but can we get back to discussing the misery/reality of NYC big law?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by SeewhathappensLarry » Wed May 03, 2017 9:39 pm

When I was in my 1L summer I was networking with some alumni. One lawyer told me that she went to a wedding with some old law school friends. Her description: everyone from NYC (that was able to make it) looked dead exhausted with circles under their eyes; one girl said she was close to a nervous breakdown; one guy said he was praying to be hit by a bus--not enough to get seriously hurt but enough where he could get time off by laying in a hospital bed.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by conker » Sat May 06, 2017 1:36 pm

BernieTrump wrote:You think you'll do a few years and go after your true calling. You won't. Nobody does. People become broken (lost relationships with friends, family and spouses; alcoholism; depression -- law firms are very sad places), and flame out, generally into something as bad or worse. Print this off and stick it somewhere that you'll find it in five years. Or better yet, don't make the mistakes I did (and which I felt strongly enough to spend 30 minutes writing this at my desk here on a Sunday night).

Taking questions.
Why would I be wrong in thinking I would quit after a few years? Could you elaborate on the phenomenon of nobody quitting after a few years? I am not talking about quitting to go after a calling, but just quitting. Do people change so much that they become hardly capable of removing themselves from the situation? If so, I would believe it. I just don't know.

I'm also not sure what it means to "flame out into" something. Flame out generally means to lose your spirit, right? So when you say flame out into something worse, are you talking about becoming an empty soul, or transferring to an even worse job, or . . . ?
Last edited by conker on Sat May 06, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sat May 06, 2017 1:38 pm

He didn't say people stay in biglaw; he said they don't leave it to pursue their true calling.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by conker » Sat May 06, 2017 1:40 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:He didn't say people stay in biglaw; he said they don't leave it to pursue their true calling.
That's a pretty specific rule, though. What about all the other options outside of Big Law and outside of someone's true calling?

Besides, I would say it is at least uncommon for people to leave any job to pursue their calling, be it bank teller or whatever.
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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sat May 06, 2017 1:43 pm

conker wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:He didn't say people stay in biglaw; he said they don't leave it to pursue their true calling.
That's a pretty specific rule, though. What about all the other options outside of Big Law and outside of someone's true calling?
I don't get what you mean. His point was that thinking biglaw will just be a stop on the way to what you really want to do is a bad approach because biglaw fucks you up. You seem to be overthinking the general message here.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by conker » Sat May 06, 2017 1:44 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
conker wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:He didn't say people stay in biglaw; he said they don't leave it to pursue their true calling.
That's a pretty specific rule, though. What about all the other options outside of Big Law and outside of someone's true calling?
I don't get what you mean. His point was that thinking biglaw will just be a stop on the way to what you really want to do is a bad approach because biglaw fucks you up. You seem to be overthinking the general message here.
Isn't that what I specifically asked if he meant?

"Do people change so much that they become hardly capable of removing themselves from the situation? If so, I would believe it. I just don't know."

Is it okay to ask for clarification?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Mr. Peanutbutter » Sat May 06, 2017 1:48 pm

"don't worry I'll just sink 10 years of my life getting trained to do something I don't really wanna do because I swear I'll be super diligent and save up like $100k while I'm doing it and then when I'm 35 and broken I'll get started with me real life!" is a shitty plan, that's all we're saying.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by conker » Sat May 06, 2017 1:51 pm

Mlk&Ckies wrote:"don't worry I'll just sink 10 years of my life getting trained to do something I don't really wanna do because I swear I'll be super diligent and save up like $100k while I'm doing it and then when I'm 35 and broken I'll get started with me real life!" is a shitty plan, that's all we're saying.
That's fine, but really I'm asking the guy (gal) a couple questions and it will be nice of him to answer them, and thank you for your point. I will keep that in mind.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sat May 06, 2017 2:07 pm

Many people go to big law thinking they'll just do it for a few years. Some don't quit because they get caught in the golden handcuffs of the salary. Some people don't quit because they do fine in biglaw. Some people don't quit because they don't know what else they'd do and they get used to misery. Some people quit and end up in worse jobs. Some people quit and end up in better jobs. Some people quit and get no jobs. Outcomes vary.

(I've never seen flame out used to mean losing your soul. Pretty sure OP meant burning out and leaving because you can't take the job any more.)

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by Mr. Peanutbutter » Sat May 06, 2017 2:21 pm

following up on what nony said, the thing that a lot of people don't keep in mind is that there isn't a formula, and things are so context dependent. you can be diligent and do your research and pretty confidently know what your experience at a particular UG or law school will end up like. you can know what grades you need to get a particular kind of job, and with a decent amount of certainty (at least more than most professions) of what kind of job you're in the running for way before you graduate.

Then you graduate and realize how much fucking luck is involved in where you land. I enjoy my job most days, and really like the people I work with. But if the stars had aligned only slightly differently, I could end up in the practice group down the hall and might absolutely hate my life, or the screamer POS partner that was pushed out before I got here could have still been here, or the first person I was assigned to work for could have been a total psychopath that is hell bent on making my life horrible because that's what he had to go through when he was a junior.

The way this industry is set up is super conducive to unhappiness, and changes to that are only being made very incrementally and at a snail's pace. It's not all doom and gloom, but I also wouldn't counsel anyone to come into this unless they have a preexisting interest in a particular practice area (still a crap shoot though) or they really want to be a lawyer and know what that means. Seeing it as a ticket to an upper-middle class lifestyle, or something to do with your humanities degree, or something your parents want you to do, etc., is setting yourself up to be one of those burned out people who hate their lives.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by BernieTrump » Thu May 11, 2017 11:22 pm

The above is correct. People don't leave for something better for all sorts of reasons, but the important thing is they don't leave for something better.

Some people get golden handcuffed. They have a kid. They're in a city they can't leave. They have a mortgage.

Many swap firms searching for a better life. I've never moved, but I've seen many make this mistake. When you're miserable, any movement seems like progress, and the easiest move is to another firm. To many's surprise, the next firm is worse. By the time they stop looking they're in their early or mid 30s, on the 2-4th firm, and have been a lawyer for ten years. At that point, it takes a "hard reset" to get out, and not many people want that (even if it is possible and usually it is not). They frown and then accept their lot in life.

It's tough to find time to look. Any given Sunday, after your 14 hours in the office, it's easier to open a bottle of wine, have two glasses and read the news for a few minutes before bed. It's difficult to spend your very few waking hours not in the office on precise cover letters and networking. It's even more difficult given that 99/100 perfectly tailored cover letters won't even be read because they'll see the JD and pass on you.

Most importantly, good exits are rare. Even if you want to stay in law, the $300K, 9-5 in-house job is a myth. I've seen maybe 5 people in jobs that fit this in my career. Hours may be better in-house generally, but there's a special type of ennui to doing the same form contract 20 times a day (with no ability to respond to comments except by reading a script) for 20 years, with no hope for advancement.

If you want out of law (is anyone's true calling really moving commas, losing self respect for yourself and annoying the juniors by pointing out they didn't follow firm protocol for defined terms and fighting with opposing counsel about the precise wording of an escrow that will not ever matter?) good luck. Nobody will hire a JD in 2017. People don't go after their true calling because those doors are, for almost every true calling, closed after starting as a firm lawyer.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by sener212 » Fri May 12, 2017 11:36 am

BernieTrump wrote:The above is correct. People don't leave for something better for all sorts of reasons, but the important thing is they don't leave for something better.

Some people get golden handcuffed. They have a kid. They're in a city they can't leave. They have a mortgage.

Many swap firms searching for a better life. I've never moved, but I've seen many make this mistake. When you're miserable, any movement seems like progress, and the easiest move is to another firm. To many's surprise, the next firm is worse. By the time they stop looking they're in their early or mid 30s, on the 2-4th firm, and have been a lawyer for ten years. At that point, it takes a "hard reset" to get out, and not many people want that (even if it is possible and usually it is not). They frown and then accept their lot in life.

It's tough to find time to look. Any given Sunday, after your 14 hours in the office, it's easier to open a bottle of wine, have two glasses and read the news for a few minutes before bed. It's difficult to spend your very few waking hours not in the office on precise cover letters and networking. It's even more difficult given that 99/100 perfectly tailored cover letters won't even be read because they'll see the JD and pass on you.

Most importantly, good exits are rare. Even if you want to stay in law, the $300K, 9-5 in-house job is a myth. I've seen maybe 5 people in jobs that fit this in my career. Hours may be better in-house generally, but there's a special type of ennui to doing the same form contract 20 times a day (with no ability to respond to comments except by reading a script) for 20 years, with no hope for advancement.

If you want out of law (is anyone's true calling really moving commas, losing self respect for yourself and annoying the juniors by pointing out they didn't follow firm protocol for defined terms and fighting with opposing counsel about the precise wording of an escrow that will not ever matter?) good luck. Nobody will hire a JD in 2017. People don't go after their true calling because those doors are, for almost every true calling, closed after starting as a firm lawyer.
Thanks for the perspective. While I understand and appreciate that some of this is true, what a terrible way to view your career/life. Here's one thing I'll guarantee: People with this defeatist attitude will never find success and fulfillment long-term in their careers. Maybe the people with a more positive outlook won't either, but I believe at least they have a shot.

As an aside, I work in biglaw, plan on doing the small firm thing at some point in hopes of doing more trial work, and then plan on pursuing more entrepreneurial non-law options after that. Not
sure exactly how that will turn out (how could I be?). I'm assume, based on this post, you'll assert it will go very poorly. I don't agree.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by lawlorbust » Fri May 12, 2017 12:54 pm

sener212 wrote:Thanks for the perspective. While I understand and appreciate that some of this is true, what a terrible way to view your career/life. Here's one thing I'll guarantee: People with this defeatist attitude will never find success and fulfillment long-term in their careers. Maybe the people with a more positive outlook won't either, but I believe at least they have a shot.

As an aside, I work in biglaw, plan on doing the small firm thing at some point in hopes of doing more trial work, and then plan on pursuing more entrepreneurial non-law options after that. Not
sure exactly how that will turn out (how could I be?). I'm assume, based on this post, you'll assert it will go very poorly. I don't agree.
While I agree with your claim that people convinced that they'll fail will fail, I also think that the particular career path you've designed for yourself is extraordinarily silly. But I guess we'll find out in a few decades!

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by sener212 » Fri May 12, 2017 1:14 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
sener212 wrote:Thanks for the perspective. While I understand and appreciate that some of this is true, what a terrible way to view your career/life. Here's one thing I'll guarantee: People with this defeatist attitude will never find success and fulfillment long-term in their careers. Maybe the people with a more positive outlook won't either, but I believe at least they have a shot.

As an aside, I work in biglaw, plan on doing the small firm thing at some point in hopes of doing more trial work, and then plan on pursuing more entrepreneurial non-law options after that. Not
sure exactly how that will turn out (how could I be?). I'm assume, based on this post, you'll assert it will go very poorly. I don't agree.
While I agree with your claim that people convinced that they'll fail will fail, I also think that the particular career path you've designed for yourself is extraordinarily silly. But I guess we'll find out in a few decades!
Yea I mean, I have no debt, make 210K in Texas, do like some things about law, and am going to give this profession a run for a while. Later I'll probably do something else. I suppose you think every career move should build off my previous experience (i.e. I should never be in law in the first place if I want to ever do entrepreneurial pursuits at some point in my life). Meh. That ignores the many, many happy, successful ppl who did not make totally linear, straightforward career moves their whole lives, and instead were "extraordinarily silly" and it worked out well.

That said, I get (to some extent) what you guys are trying to get across to prospective students. Just think it needs to be toned down some.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by lawlorbust » Fri May 12, 2017 1:26 pm

sener212 wrote:Yea I mean, I have no debt, make 210K in Texas, do like some things about law, and am going to give this profession a run for a while. Later I'll probably do something else. I suppose you think every career move should build off my previous experience (i.e. I should never be in law in the first place if I want to ever do entrepreneurial pursuits at some point in my life). Meh. That ignores the many, many happy, successful ppl who did not make totally linear, straightforward career moves their whole lives, and instead were "extraordinarily silly" and it worked out well.

That said, I get (to some extent) what you guys are trying to get across to prospective students. Just think it needs to be toned down some.
Well, you sound like a pretty chill guy who'll be fine with himself regardless of whether Plan A works out. I mean that in the best way.

If you needed to reach your "non-law entrepreneurship" endpoint in order to be happy, then sure you probably should have taken a path other than law school / legal practice. But if you're alright with not maximizing towards career success, and letting luck play its part in where you end up, ... sure, go for it?

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by sener212 » Fri May 12, 2017 1:46 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
sener212 wrote:Yea I mean, I have no debt, make 210K in Texas, do like some things about law, and am going to give this profession a run for a while. Later I'll probably do something else. I suppose you think every career move should build off my previous experience (i.e. I should never be in law in the first place if I want to ever do entrepreneurial pursuits at some point in my life). Meh. That ignores the many, many happy, successful ppl who did not make totally linear, straightforward career moves their whole lives, and instead were "extraordinarily silly" and it worked out well.

That said, I get (to some extent) what you guys are trying to get across to prospective students. Just think it needs to be toned down some.
Well, you sound like a pretty chill guy who'll be fine with himself regardless of whether Plan A works out. I mean that in the best way.

If you needed to reach your "non-law entrepreneurship" endpoint in order to be happy, then sure you probably should have taken a path other than law school / legal practice. But if you're alright with not maximizing towards career success, and letting luck play its part in where you end up, ... sure, go for it?
Fair enough. I've been a pretty happy, successful dude (I guess) without taking the purported "maximizing" path for my end goals thus far in life, and it's worked out. I worked in between undergrad and law school in a totally non-law related field. Did not help prepare me in any straightforward way for law school or being a lawyer. Nevertheless, I really value the three years I spent doing something totally different. Provides perspective, and I'm just happy I've done something totally different than the law grind. Guess that's part of why I view future career moves the way I do.

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Re: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate?

Post by legends159 » Fri May 12, 2017 3:53 pm

sener212 wrote: Fair enough. I've been a pretty happy, successful dude (I guess) without taking the purported "maximizing" path for my end goals thus far in life, and it's worked out. I worked in between undergrad and law school in a totally non-law related field. Did not help prepare me in any straightforward way for law school or being a lawyer. Nevertheless, I really value the three years I spent doing something totally different. Provides perspective, and I'm just happy I've done something totally different than the law grind. Guess that's part of why I view future career moves the way I do.
Sounds like you have a good perspective on life. Respect.

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