GULC Students Taking Questions

A forum for applicants and admitted students to ask law students and graduates about law school and the practice of law.
Londonbear
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Londonbear » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:58 pm

Hand wrote:Tell me about the LRW in-class exam. What even is this thing?


This is probably the easiest exam you will have in 1L.

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Gray
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Gray » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:53 pm

Just wanted to chime in to say that I've been incredibly happy with the support from/access to profs. In my (relatively short) experience so far, they seem to really care about helping and are willing to put you in touch with their contacts who can help you with the job-related stuff.

Also the people here are really fun. There is a very friendly, collaborative culture, at least in my section.

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Glasseyes
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Glasseyes » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:17 am

Fellow 2L from Section 2, just stopping by to say hi. I'm an older, non-traditional student, happy to answer any questions for fellow weirdos like me.

As for the central question floating through this thread: I'm happy I chose Georgetown. I frequently bitch about the workload (which will destroy you somewhat in the fall, and utterly in the spring), but I like the majority of professors I've come across, and even our stranger classmates add to the breadth and diversity of the overall experience. EIW is madness due to the size of the class, but if you go along for the ride and focus on improving throughout the process, you can have a great outcome. I get the general sense that folks did pretty well. A lot of us landed DC biglaw, and I know lots headed to NY or elsewhere. For comparison sake, the drop off in hiring at even GW is precipitous. GW has absurdly high GPA cutoffs for many firms, to the point where the winners feast and the rest starve. GULC is no cakewalk, but you've got a far better shot of landing something at top half or top third.

If you're considering GULC, be aggressive with scholarship negotiations. You have to fight to get money up front, but once you get it you can negotiate before the first deposit deadline, again before the second deposit (MAKE SURE YOU DOUBLE DEPOSIT SOMEWHERE THAT OFFERED YOU MORE MONEY), and even again a week or two before orientation. They won't offer any of this up unless you ask, so be sure to ask. People complain that GULC is stingy with aid, but it's more that they're cautious in handing it out.

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Glasseyes
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Glasseyes » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:29 am

re: the LRW exam. I had DeLaurentis, whom I loved, but her in-class exam... I did not love. Horrible, nitpicky bluebooking questions, which are fine, paired with horrible, nitpicky research and study-method questions, which are bullshit because we barely covered the material. The questions I got wrong had nothing to do with any form of research I've actually used for LRW or in any other legal context. Not sure how to prepare for the exam, other than take better notes than I did, even on obvious things like research methods, and regurgitate that shit.

re: section 3 / curriculum B. I was section 2, so traditional curriculum all the way. Can't comment on the substantive learning experience, however: many attorneys at firm receptions, at the govt agency where I worked 1L summer, OCI interviewers, and even other GULC professors have made disparaging cracks in front of me at the expense of section 3. It's not really fair, as everyone I know who did section three is reasonably normal and perfectly chill (they all loved the classes, fwiw). But as much as GULC tries to downplay it, there is a stigma you'll have to explain away if you're looking for a firm job, and possibly even for some government work. It's unlikely to be the determining factor in hiring, but law school is one long exercise in tipping the scales in your favor. Unless you have a compelling reason to go section three, i'd go the traditional route.

Londonbear
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Londonbear » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:02 am

Glasseyes wrote:
As for the central question floating through this thread: I'm happy I chose Georgetown. I frequently bitch about the workload (which will destroy you somewhat in the fall, and utterly in the spring).


Completely agree. Second semester was so much worse than first semester. First semester, all you really have to worry about are your classes. You're pretty much shielded from everything else. Second semester, even though you kind of have a better feel for what's expected on the exams, you're bombarded with (1) finding and interviewing for internships for the summer - and yes you will be stressed until you get something, (2) another class that will add another 100+ pages of reading per week, (3) networking events that will suck up the rest of your day after classes, (4) moot/mock/ADR competitions, and (5) work from any clubs you might have been coaxed into joining.

Best thing about EIW is if you land something, you can be set by the beginning of the semester. You can do as little as you want for the next two years, without having to feel the need to add more to your plate. I do not envy those that are still looking and interviewing for 2L summer, whether it's firm or gov or PI. It's stressful and time consuming, especially if you're working, doing clinic, moot/mock, have an externship, or on a journal - which seems like most people do.

schmooky
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby schmooky » Tue Oct 20, 2015 7:28 am

Glasseyes wrote:re: section 3 / curriculum B. I was section 2, so traditional curriculum all the way. Can't comment on the substantive learning experience, however: many attorneys at firm receptions, at the govt agency where I worked 1L summer, OCI interviewers, and even other GULC professors have made disparaging cracks in front of me at the expense of section 3. It's not really fair, as everyone I know who did section three is reasonably normal and perfectly chill (they all loved the classes, fwiw). But as much as GULC tries to downplay it, there is a stigma you'll have to explain away if you're looking for a firm job, and possibly even for some government work. It's unlikely to be the determining factor in hiring, but law school is one long exercise in tipping the scales in your favor. Unless you have a compelling reason to go section three, i'd go the traditional route.


Just want to correct a few things re: §3 & EIW: I interviewed only with non-DC firms and no one had heard of it except the alumnus who had been in it. Could be an entirely different beast in DC.

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Glasseyes
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Glasseyes » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:23 am

schmooky wrote:
Glasseyes wrote:re: section 3 / curriculum B. I was section 2, so traditional curriculum all the way. Can't comment on the substantive learning experience, however: many attorneys at firm receptions, at the govt agency where I worked 1L summer, OCI interviewers, and even other GULC professors have made disparaging cracks in front of me at the expense of section 3. It's not really fair, as everyone I know who did section three is reasonably normal and perfectly chill (they all loved the classes, fwiw). But as much as GULC tries to downplay it, there is a stigma you'll have to explain away if you're looking for a firm job, and possibly even for some government work. It's unlikely to be the determining factor in hiring, but law school is one long exercise in tipping the scales in your favor. Unless you have a compelling reason to go section three, i'd go the traditional route.


Just want to correct a few things re: §3 & EIW: I interviewed only with non-DC firms and no one had heard of it except the alumnus who had been in it. Could be an entirely different beast in DC.


Ah, makes sense. I was interviewing in DC and wound up with a lot of GULC alumni interviewers. Whatever stigma exists probably comes from our own ranks, like the age-old stereotype that section 1 is the gunner section.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby BmoreOrLess » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:05 pm

A few notes from someone with a good bit of work experience (not prestigious, but good enough to fill a whole interview talking about it):

-Apply up and down to paid jobs. You have a very good shot at something paid because 1) firm 1L hiring seems to be up (I didn't really apply and kicked myself for it) and 2) in-house really likes prior work experience (because they know they don't have to babysit you, give you constant feedback, etc.). Don't listen to this if you really want to do Fed Agency work. I think that also generally looks really good to firms, just note that you have a decent shot at getting paid.

-Make sure you have a narrative crafted for why you went to law school. It doesn't need to be great, you just need a logical story and it needs to be coherent; you're absolutely going to get why law school every time.

-For NYC bidding (Note: I was going purely transactional): Feel free to get a little aggressive. Make sure you have firms in your GPA range, but good work experience definitely seemed to go far this year.

-Don't worry about Orgs/Moot Court/Mock Trial if you don't want to. I don't think they really matter if you have a full resume and can spend 30 minutes talking about work experience/why law school. Might be different for Lit, but I'd still imagine grades or more important than spending a week on Moot Court briefing over spring break.

-Journal. Ugh Journal. I want to say being on a secondary didn't matter, but I have no idea. It almost never came up, an often wasn't even on most of the resumes my interviewers had, but fuck if I know if it actually had an impact behind the scenes. I did it so I wouldn't have to answer "Why are you not on a Journal." However, be weary of doing ACLR, seems like a truly excessive amount of work for a secondary. Tax is annoying but hasn't been bad.

Feel free to ask or PM me with any questions; always happy to help GULC'ers/Potential GULC'ers.

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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:27 pm

basedvulpes wrote:
Hand wrote:
There are also some more dinky complexes close by if you don't mind not having amenities (and/or sharing the place with roaches, going by online reviews). Another way to live cheaper is to find a (floor of) a rowhouse to share, or living in an english basement. I haven't looked into the prices of those nearby, so you gotta do your own digging there. Yet another alternative is to live in a complex a little further away, in a residential neighborhood and/or not super close to a metro stop. Those places are typically still pretty nice and quite a bit cheaper, but you then you do have to deal with transportation.

Really appreciate the info, thanks!


If you're diligent about craigslisting/ok with roommates/ don't need to be a 1 minute walk from campus its not all doom and gloom. I've found pretty much no downside to being 30 minutes away (by bus). Granted I live in a tiny studio with my SO which isn't ideal, but i was looking at pretty cheap options for rooms in houses around where I live

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basedvulpes
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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:41 pm

basedvulpes wrote:Would it be unheard of for someone to commute from Bethesda or Silver Spring? Just wondering because of family in those areas.

i know there's at least one 1L who does it. I chatted with him the other day and he said his commute is an hour by metro which he called "not ideal but manageable"

However the prices for metro accessible apts isn't really that much cheaper

If you mean driving in, I haven't heard of anyone that does that, and it would be miserable, and parking is like $9 a day (but if you take metro in from that far out it might be the same anyway with rush hour prices idk)

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basedvulpes
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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:48 pm

How important is 1L networking actually? Assuming my plan is to try for federal gov't 1L summer and do EIW.

Also is career services generally trustworthy enough for 1L summer advice? (or advice generally? I suppose i'm inherently distrustful of the whole administration but career services could be an ok department and thats unfounded distrust)

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby BmoreOrLess » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:03 pm

buckiguy_sucks wrote:How important is 1L networking actually? Assuming my plan is to try for federal gov't 1L summer and do EIW.


It can be either incredibly important or not very important; depending on your grades/target market. I don't think it was a coincidence that I did well with the firms I networked with during 1L. But I also found myself doing fine with firms I had no connection with what-so-ever.

Edit: If you're looking at DC, I'd probably recommend networking since it's easy and DC is competitive.

While not directly important, I think the 1L receptions (which will come next semester) are very valuable because they give you a chance to talk to a lot of attorneys. This in turn helps you 1) learn how to have conversations with attorneys, 2) get your stupid questions/comments out of the way before they matter (e.g., "I'm interested in your [random secondary market office]/[Niche Practice]," "We don't have an office there/that Practice"), 3) allows you to create connections with the recruiters (doesn't happen too often, but when it does it is invaluable), and 4) (most importantly) help you craft your elevator pitch and dumb stories you'll tell at EIW.

Also is career services generally trustworthy enough for 1L summer advice? (or advice generally? I suppose i'm inherently distrustful of the whole administration but career services could be an ok department and thats unfounded distrust)


They're useful if you have no idea what your doing or have specific questions for them, otherwise not totally helpful (but I didn't find them useless). Their events are usually OK, especially the more specific ones (e.g., the non-NYC/DC market presentations).

The general advise on TLS is probably better tho.

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Hand
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Hand » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:11 pm

Glasseyes wrote:
schmooky wrote:
Glasseyes wrote:re: section 3 / curriculum B. I was section 2, so traditional curriculum all the way. Can't comment on the substantive learning experience, however: many attorneys at firm receptions, at the govt agency where I worked 1L summer, OCI interviewers, and even other GULC professors have made disparaging cracks in front of me at the expense of section 3. It's not really fair, as everyone I know who did section three is reasonably normal and perfectly chill (they all loved the classes, fwiw). But as much as GULC tries to downplay it, there is a stigma you'll have to explain away if you're looking for a firm job, and possibly even for some government work. It's unlikely to be the determining factor in hiring, but law school is one long exercise in tipping the scales in your favor. Unless you have a compelling reason to go section three, i'd go the traditional route.


Just want to correct a few things re: §3 & EIW: I interviewed only with non-DC firms and no one had heard of it except the alumnus who had been in it. Could be an entirely different beast in DC.


Ah, makes sense. I was interviewing in DC and wound up with a lot of GULC alumni interviewers. Whatever stigma exists probably comes from our own ranks, like the age-old stereotype that section 1 is the gunner section.


There's self-selection going on too here, which may make the issue of whether there's a stigma attached to the alternative curriculum less relevant for a good chunk of those who choose it - half of the ~75 current 1Ls in the public interest fellow program come from section 3, for example. But then again, the overrepresentation of folks wanting to do public interest work in section 3 may of course just further reinforce the stigma.

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Hand
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Hand » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:15 pm

Glasseyes wrote:If you're considering GULC, be aggressive with scholarship negotiations. You have to fight to get money up front, but once you get it you can negotiate before the first deposit deadline, again before the second deposit (MAKE SURE YOU DOUBLE DEPOSIT SOMEWHERE THAT OFFERED YOU MORE MONEY), and even again a week or two before orientation. They won't offer any of this up unless you ask, so be sure to ask. People complain that GULC is stingy with aid, but it's more that they're cautious in handing it out.


This deserves emphasis. They ended up matching my highest scholarship offer after a few rounds, despite coming in at only a little more than half of that amount in their initial offer.

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buckiguy_sucks
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby buckiguy_sucks » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:20 pm

BmoreOrLess wrote:
buckiguy_sucks wrote:How important is 1L networking actually? Assuming my plan is to try for federal gov't 1L summer and do EIW.


It can be either incredibly important or not very important; depending on your grades/target market. I don't think it was a coincidence that I did well with the firms I networked with during 1L. But I also found myself doing fine with firms I had no connection with what-so-ever.

Edit: If you're looking at DC, I'd probably recommend networking since it's easy and DC is competitive.

While not directly important, I think the 1L receptions (which will come next semester) are very valuable because they give you a chance to talk to a lot of attorneys. This in turn helps you 1) learn how to have conversations with attorneys, 2) get your stupid questions/comments out of the way before they matter (e.g., "I'm interested in your [random secondary market office]/[Niche Practice]," "We don't have an office there/that Practice"), 3) allows you to create connections with the recruiters (doesn't happen too often, but when it does it is invaluable), and 4) (most importantly) help you craft your elevator pitch and dumb stories you'll tell at EIW.



Staying in DC would be cool, but it's not a high priority. I'm just really lazy I suppose and don't want to network which is a bad excuse but whatever

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Hand
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Hand » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:21 pm

Glasseyes wrote:re: the LRW exam. I had DeLaurentis, whom I loved, but her in-class exam... I did not love. Horrible, nitpicky bluebooking questions, which are fine, paired with horrible, nitpicky research and study-method questions, which are bullshit because we barely covered the material. The questions I got wrong had nothing to do with any form of research I've actually used for LRW or in any other legal context. Not sure how to prepare for the exam, other than take better notes than I did, even on obvious things like research methods, and regurgitate that shit.


Thanks for the responses y'all. I really should start doing those online bluebooking exercises, shouldn't I.

Londonbear
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Londonbear » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:43 pm

For metro commuting, I commuted my first semester from Virginia, and it was really annoying. Metro can be extremely unreliable, especially if it is a long commute. Sometimes a train will break down or whatever, and you'll be sitting there for twice as long, if not more. And this manages to happen when I had something more important to get to. I just drove instead since garage parking is about likely cheaper if you are coming from afar and if you're going during rush hour, but I guess that doesn't factor in gas. However, I was very happy living away from campus, especially around finals.

As for networking events, I found that going to a law firm panel on interviewing was helpful (although OCS did do a panel for EIW interviewing but it's much later in the semester). Don't feel the need to do more than one though, it's pretty much the same advice. Whether the networking events lead to a job, I agree that it doesn't help directly. Unless you build a substantial contact, it's not going to do anything for you. It will give you an idea of the attorneys, whether you can see yourself there, and if you'd like to bid for it come EIW time. I would also suggest that if you get a chance, do a mock interview at a law firm. Sign up for Diversity listserv if you haven't already. It's good for telling you when mock interviews and other fellowships openings happen. In general, feel free to reach out to alumni. I've never had someone ignore my emails or request for an informational interview or coffee. While it might not lead to a job, they tend to give valuable advice. One-on-ones are always better than those law firm receptions.

As for 1L summer internships, try your best to get an internship in the area you're interested in. I know people say it doesn't really matter what your 1L internship is, but the thing is it CAN make a difference. Especially if you want to do corporate work - look for a firm, any size firm and anywhere. 1L really doesn't do anything for you to get a sense of what it entails. I realized that everything I learned in 1L was pretty useless, except maybe LRW.

Which reminds me, use the Writing Center. You have your law fellows, but sometimes you have to wait for them, whereas you can just make an appointment and not have to wait.

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Glasseyes
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Glasseyes » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:49 pm

Another on-campus recruiting type event I can't recommend highly enough: the practice area series. Last year they were called something different and included lunch; this year they're called pastries and practice areas or something like that. Go to all of them. You'll get the chance to learn much more about the actual work in smaller groups or sub-groups within larger practices like lit or corporate.

These gave me more fodder to fall back on at interviews than any other source of information, and attorneys tend to react better when you express interest in, say, the day to day work involved in internal investigations rather than your lofty/unrealistic ideals behind serving justice through white collar defense.

You also get the chance to meet attorneys from a range of firms, and every time you interact with that firm down the line you can mention that talk, name drop a few of the attorneys, and show why you're interested in the given firm or practice group.

All in all I did less 1L networking than I should have, and what networking I did engage in was hugely important during recruiting season. Don't attend events at the expense of grades, but do pay attention to what's going on around you, and if you're afraid of the schmoozing process, work at overcoming that during 1L rather than the following summer where your awkwardness will cost you jobs.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Capitol_Idea » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:20 am

basedvulpes wrote:Would it be unheard of for someone to commute from Bethesda or Silver Spring? Just wondering because of family in those areas.

I commute from much, much farther away (15 minutes outside of Shady Grove). It's not ideal but goddamn I love owning a house and paying less per month than most people do for a little one bedroom in DC.

Lived in Silver Spring/Takoma Park once upon a time - highly recommend it as it is somewhat affordable, has some decent things to do (bars/restaurants/shopping/etc.), and is only ~20-30 minutes or less to campus.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:23 am

I commuted from Friendship Heights my 1L year. It really wasn't bad. Certainly nowhere near an hour, but I lived right next to the metro. The only thing that I would note is that if you see yourself going to evening activities/bar reviews/lectures/whatever, it can be annoying to go all the way home and back. I didn't care about that stuff so much, but if you see yourself being really involved in social stuff/extracurricular groups maybe live a little closer.

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Glasseyes
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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby Glasseyes » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:37 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:I commuted from Friendship Heights my 1L year. It really wasn't bad. Certainly nowhere near an hour, but I lived right next to the metro. The only thing that I would note is that if you see yourself going to evening activities/bar reviews/lectures/whatever, it can be annoying to go all the way home and back. I didn't care about that stuff so much, but if you see yourself being really involved in social stuff/extracurricular groups maybe live a little closer.


Yeah, my commute is similar: smack dab in between Tenleytown and Friendship Heights, about 12 minutes to the metro. 35-45 minutes door-to-door, which is nothing in the grand scheme of commute times. Younger folks would probably do better to live closer to your classmates, at places like 77H, 425 Mass, or Senate Square, but for an old fuck like me, I appreciate having a house and a yard and a whole foods close at hand in Tenleytown.

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Re: GULC Students Taking Questions

Postby EzraFitz » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:51 pm

Commuted from Silver Spring half of last year, and it was actually fine. Come in early enough to get a metro seat and you have work time, and not too terrible traffic to deal with in terms of packed metros.

In terms of 1L networking, every callback and offer I had was from 1L networking. Didn't even need to do EIW. YMMV, but it was literally everything for me.




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