Top Law Schools

italianlover wrote:Don't know if this thread is still active. But, if it is, I have a question.

I just finished undergrad at ND this May, and I'm applying to law schools this fall. My numbers are such that I'm focused mostly on T10 schools, but ND keeps lingering in my mind, and I'm trying to decide how much weight I should give it if, say, Harvard or Chicago or Virginia is in the picture. Reasons ND remains appealing: quantity of high quality, Catholic, conservative faculty; my obvious affection for and connection to ND as an alum; siblings currently in undergrad there; potentially (hopefully) generous scholarship opportunities / relatively small debt load (as compared to a T10); the fact of being at a Catholic school. In general, I just like Notre Dame very much.

I know the answer to this depends on what / where I'd like to practice. Unfortunately, I'm not sure. Definitely not biglaw. I'd like to pursue a clerkship, and I've always been interested in fed. gov. work or public interest (maybe something in the Catholic/conservative sphere) . A small part of me is interested in academia, which of course indicates I ought to be looking at the highest ranked school possible.

I know that NDLS punches above its weight in terms of putting students in prestigious positions (especially clerkships), but I'm wondering if it does that well enough that it would be worth sacrificing higher rankings for the relative financial safety and hospitable intellectual environment it provides.

Thanks for any input you all might have.

andythefir wrote:

italianlover wrote:Don't know if this thread is still active. But, if it is, I have a question.

I just finished undergrad at ND this May, and I'm applying to law schools this fall. My numbers are such that I'm focused mostly on T10 schools, but ND keeps lingering in my mind, and I'm trying to decide how much weight I should give it if, say, Harvard or Chicago or Virginia is in the picture. Reasons ND remains appealing: quantity of high quality, Catholic, conservative faculty; my obvious affection for and connection to ND as an alum; siblings currently in undergrad there; potentially (hopefully) generous scholarship opportunities / relatively small debt load (as compared to a T10); the fact of being at a Catholic school. In general, I just like Notre Dame very much.

I know the answer to this depends on what / where I'd like to practice. Unfortunately, I'm not sure. Definitely not biglaw. I'd like to pursue a clerkship, and I've always been interested in fed. gov. work or public interest (maybe something in the Catholic/conservative sphere) . A small part of me is interested in academia, which of course indicates I ought to be looking at the highest ranked school possible.

I know that NDLS punches above its weight in terms of putting students in prestigious positions (especially clerkships), but I'm wondering if it does that well enough that it would be worth sacrificing higher rankings for the relative financial safety and hospitable intellectual environment it provides.

Thanks for any input you all might have.

I'm currently transitioning to big fed gov 2 years out, but I don't think that's the usual outcome. You'd be out of your gourd to turn down Harvard or Chicago to go to NDLS, no matter where you'd like to be. Those schools blow away NDLS in every relevant metric. Specifically, NDLS has a relatively generous LRAP, but it still requires you to work in public interest. Harvard will pay your loans no matter where you work. Chicago and Virginia also blow away NDLS in the best reason to go there: getting a right wing clerkship.

Pomeranian wrote:WUSTL offers similar employment outcomes with MUCH better scholarships. I think some ND folks say ND has better alumni connections than Wash U, but whether this results in a boost in employment for grads is debatable. The numbers on LST show there's not much difference between the two.

Pomeranian wrote:WUSTL offers similar employment outcomes with MUCH better scholarships. I think some ND folks say ND has better alumni connections than Wash U, but whether this results in a boost in employment for grads is debatable. The numbers on LST show there's not much difference between the two.

ndirish2010 wrote:I've seen the number of people getting substantial scholarships to NDLS go up in recent years. But still, probably true that WashU gives more. I think NDLS has maybe a very slight advantage over WashU, but it depends upon the market and what you want to do. For example, WashU has a terrible clerkship placement record and several students and former students on here have told me, both on the board and PMs, that it caused them to significantly underperform. That won't happen at NDLS, especially if you're conservative.

andythefir wrote:

ndirish2010 wrote:I've seen the number of people getting substantial scholarships to NDLS go up in recent years. But still, probably true that WashU gives more. I think NDLS has maybe a very slight advantage over WashU, but it depends upon the market and what you want to do. For example, WashU has a terrible clerkship placement record and several students and former students on here have told me, both on the board and PMs, that it caused them to significantly underperform. That won't happen at NDLS, especially if you're conservative.

I'm frustrated that NDLS hasn't taken the opportunity of the down economy to out-bid its competitors. With that endowment they should have shrunk the classes and thrown huge money at top prospects when applications went down. Instead, it's my understanding the 1L class size has actually gone up.

ndirish2010 wrote:Bump.

hoy456 wrote:

ndirish2010 wrote:Bump.

Hey - chiming in with a question, if you are still monitoring this thread. thanks for taking the time. Really attracted to NDLS, as they've given me a 105k offer and it works well with elements of my personal life, being close to Chicago (wife currently working in Chicago).

I know this has been discussed ad nauseam, but I was wondering if you or anyone else had any new insight: how easy is it to get a well paying (160k+ post-grad) legal job in Chicago from NDLS? For what its worth, I went to UofC for undergrad.

From the data it looks like you need to be top 25% of the class (i.e. top 45 people) and on law review.

What are some habits or attributes of the people at NDLS who do get the limited biglaw jobs?

To that end, as well, how does NDLS compare to your experience in undergrad in terms of difficulty?

(And if any transfers are reading this, is NDLS more difficult than your previous school, and how so?)

I guess I'm trying to get a sense at what I need to do to succeed here and if it is worth the 105k vs. sticker at a low top 14?

I understand no law school is easy, but just trying to assess all of my options.

andythefir wrote:
I was in the top 45 people in my class (top ¼ or so), and I didn't get any biglaw offers; I know lots of people that struck me as goobers who graduated without honors (outside of the top 40% or so) and did get those jobs. NDLS does way better for the top of its class than its peers, but the bottom of the class can end up more screwed than its peers. Now that I've been in the workforce a couple years, I strongly suggest you check out an actual biglaw office before you work backwards from getting a job there. Almost every attorney in a big firm hates their life, and every one I've met hates their job.

My intuition is that competition in every class will be top-heavy like my class was. I knew lots of religious and/or right wing folks who turned down more highly ranked schools to go to NDLS, and I knew some people that turned down super highly ranked schools where they got in as transfers.

I started as a DA in a small town, and one of the 4 judges went to ND, along with another DA. That network, plus the LRAP, plus the financial support for students both during and after law school allow you to get crucial experience for much better jobs, like my current job. I don't want to out NDIrish2010, but in the real world, he had a true dream job. ND doesn't open doors like Stanford or Harvard, but I would be stunned if, say, Cornell's alumni were as distributed or as loyal.

hoy456 wrote: Thanks a lot! On biglaw, an immediate family member was a partner before retirement and they enjoyed their time, but I do understand what you mean. I am five years out of school and have been working in finance, but in a role that puts me in contact with a lot of biglaw lawyers, and i've enjoyed the competitiveness and complexity of the work that I do and attracted to elements of the work they do.

I know I want to be a lawyer. But I'd like to be a lawyer doing complex corporate or regulatory work - the work to which I've been exposed and working around for the last 5 years. I guess my worry is I don't want to put myself totally at a dead end career wise, whatever I decide to do, biglaw or not, by going to Notre Dame.

But it seems like I shouldn't be so pessimistic, based on your response?

andythefir wrote:

hoy456 wrote: Thanks a lot! On biglaw, an immediate family member was a partner before retirement and they enjoyed their time, but I do understand what you mean. I am five years out of school and have been working in finance, but in a role that puts me in contact with a lot of biglaw lawyers, and i've enjoyed the competitiveness and complexity of the work that I do and attracted to elements of the work they do.

I know I want to be a lawyer. But I'd like to be a lawyer doing complex corporate or regulatory work - the work to which I've been exposed and working around for the last 5 years. I guess my worry is I don't want to put myself totally at a dead end career wise, whatever I decide to do, biglaw or not, by going to Notre Dame.

But it seems like I shouldn't be so pessimistic, based on your response?

It sounds like you know better than most what the job would entail, but biglaw has gotten exponentially more grueling in the last generation when salaries went from $120 to $160 and now to $180-those salaries don't pay for themselves. Still, you get great training, and it seems like you've got a pretty good idea of what making the sausage looks like.

I knew some people who found themselves at dead ends at NDLS, but that was because they were either knuckleheads who didn't take anything seriously or flatly refused to move from a particular saturated market (as in my employer was hiring but they all turned the job down). Most of the people at the top of my class were not straight from undergrad, and a lot of the people who had success despite not being at the top of the class had work experience.

To be fair, I had a blast at NDLS, and it certainly punches above its paygrade compared to its peers. But if you're dead set on Cravath it's objectively dumb to go to ND over Virginia or Michigan.

hoy456 wrote:

andythefir wrote:

hoy456 wrote: Thanks a lot! On biglaw, an immediate family member was a partner before retirement and they enjoyed their time, but I do understand what you mean. I am five years out of school and have been working in finance, but in a role that puts me in contact with a lot of biglaw lawyers, and i've enjoyed the competitiveness and complexity of the work that I do and attracted to elements of the work they do.

I know I want to be a lawyer. But I'd like to be a lawyer doing complex corporate or regulatory work - the work to which I've been exposed and working around for the last 5 years. I guess my worry is I don't want to put myself totally at a dead end career wise, whatever I decide to do, biglaw or not, by going to Notre Dame.

But it seems like I shouldn't be so pessimistic, based on your response?

It sounds like you know better than most what the job would entail, but biglaw has gotten exponentially more grueling in the last generation when salaries went from $120 to $160 and now to $180-those salaries don't pay for themselves. Still, you get great training, and it seems like you've got a pretty good idea of what making the sausage looks like.

I knew some people who found themselves at dead ends at NDLS, but that was because they were either knuckleheads who didn't take anything seriously or flatly refused to move from a particular saturated market (as in my employer was hiring but they all turned the job down). Most of the people at the top of my class were not straight from undergrad, and a lot of the people who had success despite not being at the top of the class had work experience.

To be fair, I had a blast at NDLS, and it certainly punches above its paygrade compared to its peers. But if you're dead set on Cravath it's objectively dumb to go to ND over Virginia or Michigan.

Hey thanks for the followup! This is really helpful and encouraging. It does look like a good community and a good place to get a solid legal education. I just wanted to make sure the career outlook wasn't awful.

hoy456 wrote: Hey thanks for the followup! This is really helpful and encouraging. It does look like a good community and a good place to get a solid legal education. I just wanted to make sure the career outlook wasn't awful.