(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school Forum

[jmjm]

There is little actual learning is business school and it's a 2 year trip to socialize and network. As you stated in one of your posts, 4 months in there is little difference between and mba and non-mba. mba degree is only as good as the name of the school and placement it gives you. Brand matters a lot in the mba world.

op, can you describe your background prior to law school? How do you compare graduates of top law schools compare with mbas considering lsat is a far tougher test than anything an mba has ever done? If one can score top percentile in lsat one can demolish most of the things an mba will do besides learning to be more social.

Your rc guide is well known and useful even though i have not been able to click with the annotation approach. how did you end up doing on the test?

[Johann]

some of the guys in the mckinsey video said a couple weeks was plenty of time to prep. do your colleagues think the same? also, that basic ass math test - does that really trip people up?

[Voyager]

There is little actual learning is business school and it's a 2 year trip to socialize and network. As you stated in one of your posts, 4 months in there is little difference between and mba and non-mba. mba degree is only as good as the name of the school and placement it gives you. Brand matters a lot in the mba world.

op, can you describe your background prior to law school? How do you compare graduates of top law schools compare with mbas considering lsat is a far tougher test than anything an mba has ever done? If one can score top percentile in lsat one can demolish most of the things an mba will do besides learning to be more social.

Your rc guide is well known and useful even though i have not been able to click with the annotation approach. how did you end up doing on the test?

I think the top MBAs and top law students I worked with at McKinsey were both very very smart. I can't really say one group was clearly smarter than the other.

The trick is that many fewer law students have a good grip on math and that puts them at a huge disadvantage in the consulting hiring process- and for good reason. Much of what I do involves decomposing business problems into math, analyzing, coming up with solutions and then testing.

My background: served in the Marines as an officer. Then went on to run a large business unit for a F500. So yes, I do have a bit of a unique background. That said, I also had a buddy at McKinsey who had a History PhD and no business experience whatsoever...

[lacrossebrother]

Is anyone besides Fortune 500 executives ever impressed when someone mentions that they work for a fortune X company?

I'm not particularly impressed either, but it is a quick way to describe where I work without telling you the company name.

Honestly, what is it with this place? There is always some minority on kids here who are hyper defensive and very sensitive if they think anyone is bragging. I'm not bragging about working where I work. So relax.

Idk why I felt compelled to make sure you're not bragging. Probably not much different than your need to remind me that I know nothing as a law student. But your general tone that MBA is the best career path because biglaw blows is kind of ridiculous. And you definitely approach some sort of arrogance when you say that the career or career goal of most people on this website is dumb, and you have a really good job and everyone should aspire to follow in your footsteps.

[Voyager]

some of the guys in the mckinsey video said a couple weeks was plenty of time to prep. do your colleagues think the same? also, that basic ass math test - does that really trip people up?

Yeah, I've heard them say that too but I really think this is like what my law school friends would say regarding the LSAT or the Bar exam: "oh I just studied for a few weeks and was fine. It was no big deal."

I didn't really buy it when I heard it from them, and I didn't buy when I heard my McKinsey peers talk about how they just ambled into the interviews and killed it.

The hire rate AFTER resume screening (so after you got to the 1st rd of interviews) was 2%(!!!) my year. Remember that the competition is all very gifted people culled from the most elite universities. Anyone who is confident that they can beat those kids out is fooling themselves.

I prepped hard. Heck, maybe I over did it? I don't know. But here's the thing: because I got the offer, I don't spend much energy thinking about it. If I had bee rejected I would probably still be wondering what I could have done differently.

[Mack.Hambleton]

are u the guy from American psycho

[Johann]

im not trying to say you over prepped. im more trying to gage what the general consensus on prep is. i think you are attributing everyone elses negativity to me.

[iliketurtles123]

some of the guys in the mckinsey video said a couple weeks was plenty of time to prep. do your colleagues think the same? also, that basic ass math test - does that really trip people up?

Yeah, I've heard them say that too but I really think this is like what my law school friends would say regarding the LSAT or the Bar exam: "oh I just studied for a few weeks and was fine. It was no big deal."

I didn't really buy it when I heard it from them, and I didn't buy when I heard my McKinsey peers talk about how they just ambled into the interviews and killed it.

The hire rate AFTER resume screening (so after you got to the 1st rd of interviews) was 2%(!!!) my year. Remember that the competition is all very gifted people culled from the most elite universities. Anyone who is confident that they can beat those kids out is fooling themselves.

I prepped hard. Heck, maybe I over did it? I don't know. But here's the thing: because I got the offer, I don't spend much energy thinking about it. If I had bee rejected I would probably still be wondering what I could have done differently.

So it seems (based on observation), the low rate for JD's getting hired in consulting and investment banking and the like is due to people not taking the prep seriously. Do you think that's the case?

Does the hire rate of 2% include everyone from all across different schools? Perhaps it's higher if you're only accounting for the top schools, and perhaps even higher if you only consider those who actually took the process seriously?

[jmjm]

I think the top MBAs and top law students I worked with at McKinsey were both very very smart. I can't really say one group was clearly smarter than the other.

The trick is that many fewer law students have a good grip on math and that puts them at a huge disadvantage in the consulting hiring process- and for good reason. Much of what I do involves decomposing business problems into math, analyzing, coming up with solutions and then testing.

My background: served in the Marines as an officer. Then went on to run a large business unit for a F500. So yes, I do have a bit of a unique background. That said, I also had a buddy at McKinsey who had a History PhD and no business experience whatsoever...

The math bschool guys do is rudimentary but I can see that it can trip people who haven't done it before. do people even in the lsat top percentile have difficulty with that math? What was your lsat score?

you ran business unit before law school or after? Major/college/age?

I have never seen someone who is good in business world and scores well in lsat in my many years of workex. Most of the people who are good with the social corporate culture suck at hard academics and tests.

[Voyager]

Is anyone besides Fortune 500 executives ever impressed when someone mentions that they work for a fortune X company?

I'm not particularly impressed either, but it is a quick way to describe where I work without telling you the company name.

Honestly, what is it with this place? There is always some minority on kids here who are hyper defensive and very sensitive if they think anyone is bragging. I'm not bragging about working where I work. So relax.

Idk why I felt compelled to make sure you're not bragging. Probably not much different than your need to remind me that I know nothing as a law student. But your general tone that MBA is the best career path because biglaw blows is kind of ridiculous. And you definitely approach some sort of arrogance when you say that the career or career goal of most people on this website is dumb, and you have a really good job and everyone should aspire to follow in your footsteps.

It's just the odds, friend. You can say you are a unique snow flake, but it is highly unlikely. Odds are that the BEST case scenario is you ending up bitter, sad, in debt and looking for ways out of law 4 years from now. I have watched it play out with all of my friends. These are people at Cravath, Cleary, Covington, Skadden, Debovoise, Davis Polk, etc. They hate it barring a couple of exceptions.

And that's the BEST scenario.

What's the WORST scenario? Unemployment. That sucks. And because law is not a particularly fungible degree, you end up in deep crap.

And my point is I've been working for some years now. You haven't. Just a fact. I also know lots of people who have pursued some variation of both career paths. You don't. So I probably have some useful perspective for you. It doesn't make me smarter than you or better than you... it just means I happen to have have more years of experience with these questions than you. That's all.

It might behoove you to listen. You may still decide to continue down your path. That's fine. I really do wish you the best. Maybe you ARE the one dude out of 100 that thinks being a jr. associate is not awful or heck, maybe you are the 1 dude out of 1000 who actually LIKES it.

But maybe, just maybe, I am trying to give you guys some insight into a universe you have had no exposure to and should rightly be wary of. Maybe, just maybe, not all of you realize there are other options aside from practicing law. Maybe you are like the other 99 law grads who would be happier doing something else.

Most people on this website are going to end up miserable. Fact. How do I know that? Because most of my Columbia friends who went into law are miserable. You guys aren't any different from them. My peers (me included) all thought the big law firm and the big pay check would be great and that the practice of law would be a fun, intellectual and stimulating challenge.

It isn't.

[Voyager]

I think the top MBAs and top law students I worked with at McKinsey were both very very smart. I can't really say one group was clearly smarter than the other.

The trick is that many fewer law students have a good grip on math and that puts them at a huge disadvantage in the consulting hiring process- and for good reason. Much of what I do involves decomposing business problems into math, analyzing, coming up with solutions and then testing.

My background: served in the Marines as an officer. Then went on to run a large business unit for a F500. So yes, I do have a bit of a unique background. That said, I also had a buddy at McKinsey who had a History PhD and no business experience whatsoever...

The math bschool guys do is rudimentary but I can see that it can trip people who haven't done it before. do people even in the lsat top percentile have difficulty with that math? What was your lsat score?

you ran business unit before law school or after? Major/college/age?

I have never seen someone who is good in business world and scores well in lsat in my many years of workex. Most of the people who are good with the social corporate culture suck at hard academics and tests.

I scored a 174 back in 2006 when the number of testers was much much higher. I also have proven myself as a leader in the public and private sector.

McKinsey specifically screens for people that are good at both math/tests/academics and social interaction. It's why the hire rate is so low.

I ran a business unit post undergrad but before law school.

The math is simple. No doubt. But you would be surprised how few people can really do it well... and that includes my top law school peers.

[Voyager]

im not trying to say you over prepped. im more trying to gage what the general consensus on prep is. i think you are attributing everyone elses negativity to me.

No not at all! I am saying that everywhere I have gone, I have observed my peers sandbag their test prep efforts. Law students claiming they aren't studying but are actually grinding away.

I wonder if the McKinsey people you met and claimed they only prepped for 3 weeks are being truly honest with everyone? Maybe. I don't know. My peers at McKinsey said something similar. So maybe I did over prep.

I think you probably need 6-8 weeks of solid prep to feel confident on the case interviews.

[iliketurtles123]

im not trying to say you over prepped. im more trying to gage what the general consensus on prep is. i think you are attributing everyone elses negativity to me.

No not at all! I am saying that everywhere I have gone, I have observed my peers sandbag their test prep efforts. Law students claiming they aren't studying but are actually grinding away.

I wonder if the McKinsey people you met and claimed they only prepped for 3 weeks are being truly honest with everyone? Maybe. I don't know. My peers at McKinsey said something similar. So maybe I did over prep.

I think you probably need 6-8 weeks of solid prep to feel confident on the case interviews.

How many hours per day?

[Voyager]

some of the guys in the mckinsey video said a couple weeks was plenty of time to prep. do your colleagues think the same? also, that basic ass math test - does that really trip people up?

Yeah, I've heard them say that too but I really think this is like what my law school friends would say regarding the LSAT or the Bar exam: "oh I just studied for a few weeks and was fine. It was no big deal."

I didn't really buy it when I heard it from them, and I didn't buy when I heard my McKinsey peers talk about how they just ambled into the interviews and killed it.

The hire rate AFTER resume screening (so after you got to the 1st rd of interviews) was 2%(!!!) my year. Remember that the competition is all very gifted people culled from the most elite universities. Anyone who is confident that they can beat those kids out is fooling themselves.

I prepped hard. Heck, maybe I over did it? I don't know. But here's the thing: because I got the offer, I don't spend much energy thinking about it. If I had bee rejected I would probably still be wondering what I could have done differently.

So it seems (based on observation), the low rate for JD's getting hired in consulting and investment banking and the like is due to people not taking the prep seriously. Do you think that's the case?

Does the hire rate of 2% include everyone from all across different schools? Perhaps it's higher if you're only accounting for the top schools, and perhaps even higher if you only consider those who actually took the process seriously?

Yeah, partly. Partly. I also think it is just that it is hard as crap to get in. The combo of math, communication skills, organized thinking, business acumen is really tough to demonstrate.

That 2% was during the Dark Times of 2009/2010 when there were no jobs anywhere. It was a scary time, friends. Summer Associates getting no offered at the law firms etc.. I imagine it is easier now. Maybe 5% chance total?

McKInsey ONLY hires from the top schools and ONLY interviews the very smartest... so the 2% (or 5%) is consistent.

[lacrossebrother]

Do you think it's a military thing or do you take taking yourself way too seriously to unique heights?

[jmjm]

I scored a 174 back in 2006 when the number of testers was much much higher. I also have proven myself as a leader in the public and private sector.

McKinsey specifically screens for people that are good at both math/tests/academics and social interaction. It's why the hire rate is so low.

I ran a business unit post undergrad but before law school.

The math is simple. No doubt. But you would be surprised how few people can really do it well... and that includes my top law school peers.

Did you prep harder for lsat or for mck job? I would be shocked if you have done math before but still prepped more for mck job.

Can you describe job/industry/b-unit size for the post ug job? How did you get to run the bunit right out of ug? What was you ug college and your study concentration during college?

[Voyager]

im not trying to say you over prepped. im more trying to gage what the general consensus on prep is. i think you are attributing everyone elses negativity to me.

No not at all! I am saying that everywhere I have gone, I have observed my peers sandbag their test prep efforts. Law students claiming they aren't studying but are actually grinding away.

I wonder if the McKinsey people you met and claimed they only prepped for 3 weeks are being truly honest with everyone? Maybe. I don't know. My peers at McKinsey said something similar. So maybe I did over prep.

I think you probably need 6-8 weeks of solid prep to feel confident on the case interviews.

How many hours per day?

It's been 5 years since I did it. Memory is fuzzy. Call it 5-6 hr/day on average? You have to include the non-case interview prep as well. I had 4 interview stories I memorized that demonstrated critical consulting skills. They were 5 minutes each and were tailored to reflect what a consultant does. Those helped me stand out. I told those stories to myself all day long to and from class, in the shower, etc.

Keep in mind that you have 2-3 weeks between each interview round. So I started hard prep maybe 4 weeks out from the 1st round and then continued hard through the 2nd round?

By the 3rd round, I felt pretty good.

[Voyager]

Do you think it's a military thing or do you take taking yourself way too seriously to unique heights?

Hey man, you clicked on this thread. You knew it was going to challenge the rosy fantasy future you have constructed for yourself. Why get all defensive about it?

If you don't like what I am saying, that's cool. Dismiss me and go read the Thomas Jefferson School of Law thread about how they are all going to do GREAT (or is that school no longer on here in light of the fact that it is about to go into bankruptcy?). There are lots of places on TLS for you to get your plan affirmed. Lots. Go to one of those places. Hell, the whole board is, and has always been, a bunch of self-congratulatory back slapping.

I'd LOVE to find out where some of the guys I knew on here from 5 years ago are today. The ones who were so FERVENTLY SURE that law was for them and they were destined for a bright future. Did the Dark Times eat them up and spit them out? I wonder...

[Voyager]

I scored a 174 back in 2006 when the number of testers was much much higher. I also have proven myself as a leader in the public and private sector.

McKinsey specifically screens for people that are good at both math/tests/academics and social interaction. It's why the hire rate is so low.

I ran a business unit post undergrad but before law school.

The math is simple. No doubt. But you would be surprised how few people can really do it well... and that includes my top law school peers.

Did you prep harder for lsat or for mck job? I would be shocked if you have done math before but still prepped more for mck job.

Can you describe job/industry/b-unit size for the post ug job? How did you get to run the bunit right out of ug? What was you ug college and your study concentration during college?

Fair question. LSAT for sure. I prepped like a demon for 2-3 months. 20 hours per week. So you make a fair point.

Post undergrad I was a Marine Officer. Had command everywhere I went. Got out and leveraged the military experience to enter a leadership fast track program where I quickly ended up running a $60 million/year, 240 employee business.

My undergrad major was some social studies nonsense major. I am very lucky my dad insisted on making me a high achiever in math.

[Mack.Hambleton]

>20 hour days

You've taken it too far

[EricHosmer]

OP, what were some of the end results for people who weren't near top of their class in top MBA programs? Do you know of people who struggled to find meaningful employment for a while after graduation? How much did a lack of business background hurt them in their ability to find meaningful employment?

[Voyager]

>20 hour days

You've taken it too far

Sorry my bad. 20 hours per week. Typo! I will edit the post, if that is ok with you.

[jmjm]

Fair question. LSAT for sure. I prepped like a demon for 2-3 months. 20 hour days. So you make a fair point.

Post undergrad I was a Marine Officer. Had command everywhere I went. Got out and leveraged the military experience to enter a leadership fast track program where I quickly ended up running a $60 million/year, 240 employee business.

My undergrad major was some social studies nonsense major. I am very lucky my dad insisted on making me a high achiever in math.

Many big companies have leadership track hirings but they hire only from highly applied majors (stem/business) or after professional programs such as mba.

What was the industry and what were you duties?

How did you get the job after marines, just applied online or something else?

Are you from some ivy college with exceptional softs?

[Voyager]

OP, what were some of the end results for people who weren't near top of their class in top MBA programs? Do you know of people who struggled to find meaningful employment for a while after graduation? How much did their lack of business background hurt them in their ability to find meaningful employment?

They end up joining Target or Macys or GE, etc. making $110k their first year but working 50 hour work weeks. Not bad, I'd say. 50 hours a week is a very civilized work schedule.

In this economy, top MBAs are not having trouble getting hired.

Because these roles are designed for people who no ZERO about the industry, it makes no difference that they have no prior business training.

[Voyager]

Fair question. LSAT for sure. I prepped like a demon for 2-3 months. 20 hour days. So you make a fair point.

Post undergrad I was a Marine Officer. Had command everywhere I went. Got out and leveraged the military experience to enter a leadership fast track program where I quickly ended up running a $60 million/year, 240 employee business.

My undergrad major was some social studies nonsense major. I am very lucky my dad insisted on making me a high achiever in math.

Many big companies have leadership track hirings but they hire only from highly applied majors (stem/business) or after professional programs such as mba.

What was the industry and what were you duties?

How did you get the job after marines, just applied online or something else?

Are you from some ivy college with exceptional softs?

Military officers are actually highly sought after. We have a lot of leadership experience at a young age and are used to working long hours in adverse conditions for shitty pay.

The fast track program I went after was specifically targeting military officers. There are also recruiting firms that specialize in placing guys like that. I used one of those as well.

I have given plenty of info on the responsibilities I had. Can I just leave it at that? I can assure you that Manufacturers and Retailers all over the U.S. have similar programs.

I went to a flagship state university for undergrad.