(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

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Instinctive

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Instinctive » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:18 pm

dabigchina wrote:I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.


This is especially true for straight through people.

There should be some recognition of going straight from a big state school vs elite Ivy UG. Your "2-4 years of work" options are very different at that point. One of the biggest reasons I am doing a JD/MBA (which I believe Voyager takes a couple of admittedly fair shots at earlier) is because I straight up couldn't get into a top MBA otherwise.

Applying for joint or applying as a 1L are both significantly higher chances at getting into a top MBA with a lesser resume/background. I don't want this to read as though I did nothing and a joint degree was a magic solution (I was one of the top students at my entire university and have some pretty great experience for someone who came straight through), but it is absolutely a way to leverage what you do have to offer to get the MBA. I was straight rejected from 4 of the schools anyway, made it to final round of HBS interviews, and then got into 2 MBAs (including the one I am at now). My experience absolutely shined through as evidencing that a law school acceptance made a huge difference. Admissions deans call the other admissions deans at their university. These things are real and can be used to your advantage.

The cost equation is different too. My situation (foregoing a top end of maybe 70k a year in salary pre-tax) has significantly lower opportunity costs and the burden of debt on a 22 year old is less than it is on a 30 year old purely because of the extra time to pay it back. I also get more aid because I had no assets.


TLS is great and has been super helpful to me. But a point I think Voyager gets at some and dances around a bit as well is that "special snowflakes" gets taken too far. There are significant differences in costs and benefits depending on how old somebody is and what else they can do. For blanket advice, TLS is great, but a little bit more contextual awareness in the culture would be valuable.




Tl;dr - Voyager making some great points here, but be aware that the straight through people can't necessarily take advantage. Remember your situation and read things through that lens.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Instinctive » Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:32 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
banjo wrote:
jingosaur wrote:The top LSAT scorers generally worked their asses off where most top GMAT takers are taking it while they have a very demanding job and are just looking for a score to be in the running.


Agree with this completely. If T14-type law students devoted a FRACTION of the effort they put into the LSAT to the quant section on the GMAT, they would probably do fine. Instead, they throw their hands up at the first sign of math. A lack of WE is a major hurdle to this MBA idea; simple algebra/geometry is not.


No,just no. The mathematical topics themselves do not go beyond algebra/geometry (although frankly considering how different those topics are from reading comp and logical reasoning this is still completely irrelevant in terms of making the determination that the GMAT quant is somehow "easy" compared to the LSAT--the two skill sets just do not intersect) but the questions are designed in such a way as to be brain teasers. The GMAT takes those mathematical topics and then asks the test taker to perform abstract reasoning. They don't just give you 20 questions of " please solve 2x + some integer= some integer". That the demographics of the two groups are so different should provide a hint. There's a reason why many of the top performers on the GMAT are very quant heavy background type test takers like engineers etc. It's also one of the reasons you see far more Indians and Asians represented in top MBA programs than you do at the top law schools. I'm sorry but strong reading comp skills does not automatically equal strong at permutations and combinatorics.


The GMAT math is not hard. I honestly would have scored higher on quant if I had taken it the same day as the SAT in high school. It was 100% high school math that I had taken (and I was a public school kid).

I took my GMAT with zero prep (at the time I wasn't trying to qualify for an MBA program). My previous LSAT prep alone let me ace reading comp, and math from high school was enough for the rest.

With prep? GMAT is an EASY test. As someone who has taken both and done well on them. It's night and day.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:34 am

People, really. This idea that getting into a good MBA program is impossible therefore go spend a bunch of money to get into a career that almost all of you will hate seems silly to me.

1) first, you are way over estimating the necessary credentials to get in
2) second, why NOT go work for a few years before jumping into a grad program? You guys make it sound like it is law school or nothing. Going right to law school will most likely be a terrible choice for many of you.
3) third, prepping GMAT is eminently doable for the type of person who is capable of killing the LSAT.... a person who has most likely been a top academic performer for their entire lives
4) fourth, even if you believe I am delusional regarding the MBA, do NOT think your only option is law school. Years ago I proved that becoming an electrician is financially much smarter than becoming an attorney for most potential law students.

I get that many of you are fixated on law school as the answer. I am challenging you to consider other options in light of the bad news I bring: the lot of lawyers is bleak.
Last edited by Voyager on Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:37 am

mudiverse wrote:
jingosaur wrote:Thank you for posting Voyager. I agree with some of what you say, but even at the very top law schools, a lot of students have absolutely no experience that will get them anything close to a top MBA and many didn't have the means to get good employment out of undergrad. However, I do agree that getting some kind of work experience after undergrad is in most cases a lot more valuable than going straight through to law school.

If you're good at math, it's pretty easy to kill the GMAT if you have any handle on the LSAT. The top LSAT scorers generally worked their asses off where most top GMAT takers are taking it while they have a very demanding job and are just looking for a score to be in the running. Anecdotally, I got a 780 on the GMAT between a 169 and a 170 on the LSAT with a perfect score on the Quant section.

At a lot of the top 6 law schools, there are a bunch of students who start out there looking to be in business long term. For people with undergraduate business degrees, an MBA can be kind of repetitive since you're basically retaking the entire first year curriculum. The top law schools are starting to get a lot more business friendly. HLS offers a lot of finance and business courses and a negotiation program. Chicago has the Doctoroff program that takes students who enter law school with no intention of practicing law. NYU has something similar with the Jacobson program and if you want to get an MBA from Stern, they only consider your LSAT score and it has a high acceptance rate (people have told me basically nobody gets rejected).

I'm not necessarily condoning law school as a way to business, but people with business backgrounds before law school can get a lot of benefits from law school that they may not get from business school. It's obviously an extra year, but "good work experience" in law school is considered 2-3 years where b-schools generally like 4-5.

I think business firms are starting to notice this trend. The Doctoroff program has been very successful thus far and BCG announced that for the first time they are going to take 1L interns from HLS (and McKinsey will probably do so soon).


jingosaur brings up a valid point here that 1L's should take note off. There are a number of strong 3-yr JD/MBA programs available at the T14 (all of which happen to overlap with the M7, with the exception of MIT). There is also not an insignificant amount of anecdotal evidence out there that says getting into the MBA when you've already been accepted as a 1L is just a matter of piecing together a complete application.

Voyager, I'm curious why you don't recommend trying for the JD/MBA. Although one inevitably takes a backseat to the other in terms of long-term career, it does seem to provide a lot of options for those who are potentially interested in both fields. I don't mean that 0L's should apply to law school with the intention of backdooring into the MBA program, but for those who have some WE and want the skillset provided by both degrees, why not apply? Even as insurance, the MBA programs are not really challenging and can be leveraged in case you strike out at OCI.

Obviously this opinion is sans costs sensitivity. Tuition costs for a JD/MBA are roughly 150% of one degree, but one could argue that it lays a very lucrative and broad career path.


Because it is obscenely expensive. It costs something like $200k ABOVE the JD cost (+1 year of tuition and -1 year of income) for NO ADDITIONAL INCOME POTENTIAL.

Zero.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Shortterm12 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:15 am

Is it possible to get large amounts of merit aid for MBA programs? It just seems so expensive. Even applying is very expensive. You can go to a T14 with $$$ with a high LSAT score which I don't think is a bad deal if you want to practice law.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby 2transferornot » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:16 am

YMMV, but I just cannot STAND them elite MBAs, their overconfident personalities, their unnerving pretentiousness, and mainly, their relentless optimism. Lawyers are kinda bad too, but at least, they are pessimistic.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby lhanvt13 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:06 am

2transferornot wrote:YMMV, but I just cannot STAND them elite MBAs, their overconfident personalities, their unnerving pretentiousness, and mainly, their relentless optimism. Lawyers are kinda bad too, but at least, they are pessimistic.

hmm I've had Kellogg, Booth, and Wharton friends. Their colleagues all seem nice and the type of people I would want to hang out with. a lot more Law school have more of a ... pretentiousness aura. Idk, small sample size though, but just my experience.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby WhirledWorld » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:30 pm

ITT: I've never had a full-time legal job but I can 100% guarantee that they suck based on some anecdotal evidence. Instead you should all go get degrees I didn't get but based on other anecdotal evidence it sounds pretty cool. Trust me, I made a post you read once.

Also my house is big and my wife is hot #CoffeeIsForClosers

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby twenty » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:51 pm

I've never had a full-time legal job but I can 100% guarantee that they suck based on some anecdotal evidence


lol @ needing to work in biglaw to know it sucks

Instead you should all go get degrees I didn't get but based on other anecdotal evidence it sounds pretty cool.


lol @ PERTINENT HESITATION at jumping to the conclusion that a top MBA would be beneficial to someone looking to get into this kind of work

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:55 pm

WhirledWorld wrote:ITT: I've never had a full-time legal job but I can 100% guarantee that they suck based on some anecdotal evidence. Instead you should all go get degrees I didn't get but based on other anecdotal evidence it sounds pretty cool. Trust me, I made a post you read once.

Also my house is big and my wife is hot #CoffeeIsForClosers


It was one of you guys who was rude enough to ask me questions about my wife and home.

I also think your RC is poor. Have you seen the guide I wrote?

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby 2x2Matrix » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:30 am

As someone who went to MBB out of college and am currently deferring law school to keep working, this thread was a great read. Thanks Voyager for sparking the discussion.

I think this point below needs more attention:
Voyager wrote:2) second, why NOT go work for a few years before jumping into a grad program? You guys make it sound like it is law school or nothing. Going right to law school will most likely be a terrible choice for many of you.

I get that many of you are fixated on law school as the answer. I am challenging you to consider other options in light of the bad news I bring: the lot of lawyers is bleak.


Going straight through to law school results in a lack of perspective when it comes to jobs. I always think it's crazy when a lawyer wants to become an investment banker at age 27.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby mizzou1987 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:35 pm

Voyager wrote:
dabigchina wrote:
Voyager wrote:
dabigchina wrote:I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.


Heh. Yes. I very much regret going to law school over business school.

I am telling these people to go get some work experience. If they can prep the LSAT and score a 172, they can sure as hell prep GMAT and score a 720+.


Problem is you can't just go out and get experience at a f500, consulting, banking (not going to mention big4 accounting because that will get you laughed out of town). There's a reason those jobs are so coveted. For your run of the mill student at a mediocre state u with a 3.7 in history I'd say law school/biglaw is much more attainable and reasonably lucrative.


I think you are way overestimating the work pedigrees top MBA programs require. I have seen all kinds of backgrounds. And they are not all F500, MBB people. Not by a long shot.

Ex-military, non-profits, nurses, programmers, analysts in various corporate functions. Hell, an assistant manager from Target would probably be highly sought after! Why? Because MBA programs want a class with diverse backgrounds. It makes the discussion more interesting.

In short: I disagree with you. I think that a decent undergrad kid could go work in commission sales for 4 years, go kill the GMAT and get in to any number of top MBA programs.


Out of curiosity, have ever seen or heard of enlisted military making it into a high-ranked MBA program? By top program, assume top 20, not just HSW.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby lhanvt13 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:43 pm

mizzou1987 wrote:
Out of curiosity, have ever seen or heard of enlisted military making it into a high-ranked MBA program? By top program, assume top 20, not just HSW.

I've met one in an M7.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Instinctive » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:00 am

lhanvt13 wrote:
mizzou1987 wrote:
Out of curiosity, have ever seen or heard of enlisted military making it into a high-ranked MBA program? By top program, assume top 20, not just HSW.

I've met one in an M7.


There are multiple JD/MBAs with me who came straight from the military to school. Quite a few more who are only MBAs as well.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Bronte » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:46 am

I know people who have been unhappy and unsuccessful going the MBB route out of law school. I also know people who have been happy and successful in big law.

These degrees and career paths are not fungible things that should be compared solely based on salary, hours, and time spent partying while getting the degree. You should be wary of the idea that OP has found you a career path that is "objectively" superior to another one, especially when that conclusion is so self-serving.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby rdawkins28 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:09 am

Instinctive wrote:
dabigchina wrote:I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.


This is especially true for straight through people.

There should be some recognition of going straight from a big state school vs elite Ivy UG. Your "2-4 years of work" options are very different at that point. One of the biggest reasons I am doing a JD/MBA (which I believe Voyager takes a couple of admittedly fair shots at earlier) is because I straight up couldn't get into a top MBA otherwise.

Applying for joint or applying as a 1L are both significantly higher chances at getting into a top MBA with a lesser resume/background. I don't want this to read as though I did nothing and a joint degree was a magic solution (I was one of the top students at my entire university and have some pretty great experience for someone who came straight through), but it is absolutely a way to leverage what you do have to offer to get the MBA. I was straight rejected from 4 of the schools anyway, made it to final round of HBS interviews, and then got into 2 MBAs (including the one I am at now). My experience absolutely shined through as evidencing that a law school acceptance made a huge difference. Admissions deans call the other admissions deans at their university. These things are real and can be used to your advantage.

The cost equation is different too. My situation (foregoing a top end of maybe 70k a year in salary pre-tax) has significantly lower opportunity costs and the burden of debt on a 22 year old is less than it is on a 30 year old purely because of the extra time to pay it back. I also get more aid because I had no assets.


TLS is great and has been super helpful to me. But a point I think Voyager gets at some and dances around a bit as well is that "special snowflakes" gets taken too far. There are significant differences in costs and benefits depending on how old somebody is and what else they can do. For blanket advice, TLS is great, but a little bit more contextual awareness in the culture would be valuable.




Tl;dr - Voyager making some great points here, but be aware that the straight through people can't necessarily take advantage. Remember your situation and read things through that lens.


Nice. Agree. Voyager makes great points. But the problem is that he (and most of TLS) makes it sound, intentionally or not, as if the groupthink is gospel and there can be no exception. And there's such a drone mindset here that any deviation is laughed at. O well, such is the internet mob mentality. Can't beat it. Can only raise an objection here and there (then expect to be laughed at naturally).

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:42 am

Bronte wrote:I know people who have been unhappy and unsuccessful going the MBB route out of law school. I also know people who have been happy and successful in big law.

These degrees and career paths are not fungible things that should be compared solely based on salary, hours, and time spent partying while getting the degree. You should be wary of the idea that OP has found you a career path that is "objectively" superior to another one, especially when that conclusion is so self-serving.


Friend, we have objective data on this issue. You are muddying the waters in a rather disingenuous way through a false equivalency.

Lawyers are not only 3.6 times more likely to suffer from depression but also are currently committing suicide in record numbers:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawyer-suicides/

Lawyers HATE biglaw. And by that I mean, they hate it in much larger numbers and with more hate: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140518202841-11656958-what-is-big-law-doing-about-lawyer-unhappiness
-37 percent of associates at big law firms quit their firms by the end of their third years of practice.”[5]
-45% of those working at 101–250 lawyer firms and 55% of those working at law firms with more than 250 lawyers either expected to or were actively planning to change jobs within the next two years.[6]
-Female associates leave private practice at almost twice the rate of comparable male associates.[7]
-Minority women, although satisfied with their choice of career, are leaving their jobs at large law firms at record rates.[8]
-In 2005, 81% of female associates of color changed jobs within five years.[9]
-Other indicators of career dissatisfaction are the high rates of depression, alcoholism, and suicide among members of the profession.[10]

For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous. I am actually helping a major company function fix a 14% turnover rate right now. If we can lower it to 8% it will be worth $3 million in profit a year.

Lawyers have a tendency to be alcoholics. After 2 years of practice, 18% of attorneys are alcoholics. After 20 years it is 25%. Compare to 7.2% for the rest of the population. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Kids who go to MBB have more varied and better exit options that generally pay very well. Lawyers who hate being lawyers can... go in house to be a lawyer.

Look: you've got to be honest with yourself and others about this law profession. It sucks for the vast majority of lawyers. Objectively. Maybe you are one of the handful of graduates out of your class of 500 who actually likes it? {note that this ALSO requires you to be one of the people who actually gets a job... not a sure thing}. Maybe. MUCH more likely that you will be miserable as shit and will want to quit in 4 years.

If that is the case, you should seriously consider the possibility that you are not special and that you should consider other options. Becoming a plumber, for instance, is much more likely to set you up better financially, requires fewer hours, and teaches you a useful skill.

Sure, I know 3 attorneys (at Quinn, DPW, and Boise Schiller respectively) who like their jobs. The entire rest of my CLS network hates it 4 years out. Some of those are grinding it out to make partner... does not mean they are happy.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:45 pm

lol at happiness

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:49 pm

Voyager wrote:
Bronte wrote:I know people who have been unhappy and unsuccessful going the MBB route out of law school. I also know people who have been happy and successful in big law.

These degrees and career paths are not fungible things that should be compared solely based on salary, hours, and time spent partying while getting the degree. You should be wary of the idea that OP has found you a career path that is "objectively" superior to another one, especially when that conclusion is so self-serving.


Friend, we have objective data on this issue. You are muddying the waters in a rather disingenuous way through a false equivalency.

Lawyers are not only 3.6 times more likely to suffer from depression but also are currently committing suicide in record numbers:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawyer-suicides/

Lawyers HATE biglaw. And by that I mean, they hate it in much larger numbers and with more hate: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20140518202841-11656958-what-is-big-law-doing-about-lawyer-unhappiness
-37 percent of associates at big law firms quit their firms by the end of their third years of practice.”[5]
-45% of those working at 101–250 lawyer firms and 55% of those working at law firms with more than 250 lawyers either expected to or were actively planning to change jobs within the next two years.[6]
-Female associates leave private practice at almost twice the rate of comparable male associates.[7]
-Minority women, although satisfied with their choice of career, are leaving their jobs at large law firms at record rates.[8]
-In 2005, 81% of female associates of color changed jobs within five years.[9]
-Other indicators of career dissatisfaction are the high rates of depression, alcoholism, and suicide among members of the profession.[10]

For reference: I consider a turnover rate in a corporate environment of over 10% as disastrous. I am actually helping a major company function fix a 14% turnover rate right now. If we can lower it to 8% it will be worth $3 million in profit a year.

Lawyers have a tendency to be alcoholics. After 2 years of practice, 18% of attorneys are alcoholics. After 20 years it is 25%. Compare to 7.2% for the rest of the population. http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics

Kids who go to MBB have more varied and better exit options that generally pay very well. Lawyers who hate being lawyers can... go in house to be a lawyer.

Look: you've got to be honest with yourself and others about this law profession. It sucks for the vast majority of lawyers. Objectively. Maybe you are one of the handful of graduates out of your class of 500 who actually likes it? {note that this ALSO requires you to be one of the people who actually gets a job... not a sure thing}. Maybe. MUCH more likely that you will be miserable as shit and will want to quit in 4 years.

If that is the case, you should seriously consider the possibility that you are not special and that you should consider other options. Becoming a plumber, for instance, is much more likely to set you up better financially, requires fewer hours, and teaches you a useful skill.

Sure, I know 3 attorneys (at Quinn, DPW, and Boise Schiller respectively) who like their jobs. The entire rest of my CLS network hates it 4 years out. Some of those are grinding it out to make partner... does not mean they are happy.


Bare attrition stats are deceptive too. The risks associated with high turnover are totally industry dependent, you know this, and it's always been part of the partnership/apprenticeship model. Its not like consulting firms or investment banks have strong retention; you left your job after a couple years as well. I left my consulting firm to go back to school. It would inefficient for every starting analyst or associate to stay in their position; that's the industry model.

It's a totally inapposite comparison to Boeing or Target Corp or Kaiser or Caterpillar or Box or hundreds of other industries where retaining talent is a key management goal and training new people is costly and inefficient. Many partners will encourage a promising/high billing associate to leave to clerk, join the US attorneys office, or go in-house -- any some of these people will return as partners, which is hidden by the attrition data. Tl;dr your example lacks comparative force to white collar services like law where >90% retention would be absurd.

It's worth mentioning from the supply side, most fresh attorneys join large firms specifically to receive the training, pay down their debt and exit. I grant you, 70% attrition is too high and exposes some industry wide problems with the biglaw model, but most people plan on leaving, you're mistaking causation and correlation when you assume everyone is so miserable that they decide to quit once they've started. Only a few firms encourage every associate to become partner (i.e. Munger) and even there you're expected to leave for years to pursue academic or public service interests for a while.

So I don't think attrition and a few business insider phone surveys qualify as a sufficiently rigorous measure of how much drastically more miserable attorneys are in their jobs than everyone else.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby rdawkins28 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:08 pm

Yeh yeh yeh... we know. law sucks. no one should go into law. isn't that pretty much one of the main themes of TLS?

but like newton said, for every statistic, there's an equal an opposite statistic. or something like that.

on the bright side, lawyers didn't make this list:

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-alcoholic-jobs-2011-10?op=1 (alcoholic)

or this

http://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20428990,00.html (depression)

or this

http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Performance-Termination/Alcohol-and-Drugs-Testing/5-Jobs-with-Highest-Rate-of-Drug-Use# hey, legal is among the lowest

and apparently 25% might just be normal: http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/professions-with-alcohol-problems/

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:31 pm

rdawkins28 wrote:Yeh yeh yeh... we know. law sucks. no one should go into law. isn't that pretty much one of the main themes of TLS?

but like newton said, for every statistic, there's an equal an opposite statistic. or something like that.

on the bright side, lawyers didn't make this list:

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-alcoholic-jobs-2011-10?op=1 (alcoholic)

or this

http://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20428990,00.html (depression)

or this

http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Performance-Termination/Alcohol-and-Drugs-Testing/5-Jobs-with-Highest-Rate-of-Drug-Use# hey, legal is among the lowest

and apparently 25% might just be normal: http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/professions-with-alcohol-problems/


Heh. Seems like every stat/article I go look at regarding law paints a dire picture. While correlation does not equal causation, at some point there are enough correlations that some connection is implied

By the way, main theme of TLS has always been: "follow your DREAMS and don't listen to the dissenters." This applies to all of the various discussions around employment prospects from different types of schools to going into law to begin with. I wonder what happened to all of those kids who disagreed with me years ago regarding post low tier law school employment? The Dark Times were serious business.

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:32 pm

fats provolone wrote:lol at happiness


Fair enough. If "happiness" (however you want to define it) is not part of your equation, then godspeed.

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Bronte

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Bronte » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:35 pm

fats provolone wrote:lol at happiness


"Satisfied" and "unsatisfied" would have been better word choices.

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fats provolone

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby fats provolone » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:36 pm

Bronte wrote:
fats provolone wrote:lol at happiness


"Satisfied" and "unsatisfied" would have been better word choices.

all the evidence suggests that suicide is pretty satisfying

rdawkins28

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby rdawkins28 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:57 pm

Voyager wrote:
rdawkins28 wrote:Yeh yeh yeh... we know. law sucks. no one should go into law. isn't that pretty much one of the main themes of TLS?

but like newton said, for every statistic, there's an equal an opposite statistic. or something like that.

on the bright side, lawyers didn't make this list:

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-alcoholic-jobs-2011-10?op=1 (alcoholic)

or this

http://www.health.com/health/gallery/0,,20428990,00.html (depression)

or this

http://hr.blr.com/HR-news/Performance-Termination/Alcohol-and-Drugs-Testing/5-Jobs-with-Highest-Rate-of-Drug-Use# hey, legal is among the lowest

and apparently 25% might just be normal: http://alcoholrehab.com/alcoholism/professions-with-alcohol-problems/


Heh. Seems like every stat/article I go look at regarding law paints a dire picture. While correlation does not equal causation, at some point there are enough correlations that some connection is implied

By the way, main theme of TLS has always been: "follow your DREAMS and don't listen to the dissenters." This applies to all of the various discussions around employment prospects from different types of schools to going into law to begin with. I wonder what happened to all of those kids who disagreed with me years ago regarding post low tier law school employment? The Dark Times were serious business.


There are worse careers according to some of those articles.
Also, the main themes of the TLS collective have been:

Retake. No exceptions.
Law sucks. No exceptions.
If you're not retaking or think law is great, then, my o my, aren't you a special snowflake?



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