(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

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Voyager

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(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:57 pm

1) all of my top law school classmates are miserable in biglaw. It sucks.
2) MBA is 1 year less of debt and 1 year more of income
3) the work you do out of a top MBA program is vastly more impactful and interesting than what jr associates end up doing
4) your hours are much better, even at a big consulting firm
5) you will earn as much as your biglaw friends and will likely earn more than them long term

I wrote a few handy LSAT prep guides you may have used. I ended up going to a big consulting firm instead of biglaw out of Columbia. Now I am an executive at a F500.

I'm not trying to "kill your dreams"... Just trying to make you aware of an objectively superior option.

Taking questions (nice, slow Halloween Friday at the office)

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t-14orbust

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby t-14orbust » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:10 pm

I'm highly considering consulting post LS.
Did you have a business background/experience prior to law school?
How important are LS grades for MBB consulting?
How stable do you feel your job is?
How long did it take you to lateral to F500?
What is the pay like?
Any general advice about the career path?

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:18 pm

1) yes, I have an extensive pre-law school business background but many of my consulting PhD/law grad consulting peers did not

2) my jobs have always been 100x more stable than that of the average biglaw associate. Those dudes get waxed.

3) MBB kids are highly sought after. It is a golden ticket. I left after 2 years. Now I work 50 hrs/week with minimal travel

4) McKinsey (which is the only firm that really hires law school grads) offers a base of $140k ( I think... Was $135k when I did it), a $20k signing bonus, a 20% performance bonus and a 15%(?) retirement bonus (paid annually into a retirement account)

5) exit options beat that. I currently make more than a 4th year biglaw associate when including stock grants and bonus but I work much much less

6) advice to get into it? Attend CCN or better, sign up at OCI, prep the crap out of cases

Actual career advice upon arrival is a bit premature.

iliketurtles123

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby iliketurtles123 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:28 pm

Thinking about business school (I'm a 2L)
would JD MBA be a poor choice? I'm a strike out at CCN>

I would like to note that getting an MBA was something I've thought about and it's not something I want to do just because I struck out.

ClubberLang

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby ClubberLang » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:40 pm

Voyager wrote:1) all of my top law school classmates are miserable in biglaw. It sucks.

I'm not trying to "kill your dreams"... Just trying to make you aware of an objectively superior option.

Taking questions (nice, slow Halloween Friday at the office)


Since you are taking questions, why did you think this would be a worthwhile post? Anyone who will read your post has already heard how bad big law is and how poor a life choice going to law school was. Objectively, you sound like a tool. Congrats on your remarkable success though.

Yours was literally one of the worst posts I have ever read. I hope the F500 where you are a bigshot executive goes bankrupt. Just awful.
Last edited by ClubberLang on Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:47 pm

ClubberLang wrote:
Voyager wrote:1) all of my top law school classmates are miserable in biglaw. It sucks.

I'm not trying to "kill your dreams"... Just trying to make you aware of an objectively superior option.

Taking questions (nice, slow Halloween Friday at the office)


Since you are taking questions, why did you think this would be a worthwhile post? Anyone who will read your post has already heard how bad big law is and how poor a life choice going to law school was. Objectively, you sound like a tool. Congrats on your remarkable success though.


Nice to see this place hasn't changed much in 5 years.

Good luck to you. I am sure you will be successful as you seem utterly delightful.

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:50 pm

iliketurtles123 wrote:Thinking about business school (I'm a 2L)
would JD MBA be a poor choice? I'm a strike out at CCN>

I would like to note that getting an MBA was something I've thought about and it's not something I want to do just because I struck out.


Yeah, the problem with the JD/MBA is that you will never fully leverage the degree. You will always be wasting half of it.

I have 2 buddies who did it.

1 is a corporate attorney in biglaw who never uses the MBA

the other went to McKinsey where his law degree is worthless


In short: it is very expensive to go get that dual degree. Do it if you KNOW you want to do business instead. If you plan on going into law anyway, stay the course and stuck with a JD only

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gnomgnomuch

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby gnomgnomuch » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:51 pm

Currently considering doing an MPP before LS - or maybe instead of LS - at LSE or a school of that quality, are MPP's objectively worse than MBA's?
Also, what type of consulting? - forgive ignorance, but I don't know what consulting even is, so if you clear that up it would be helpful.

No business background - taken some basic classes like calc 1 and 2, econ and marketing - but that's it.

Also, your RC guide was super helpful, thank you for that as well.

iliketurtles123

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby iliketurtles123 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:52 pm

Voyager wrote:
iliketurtles123 wrote:Thinking about business school (I'm a 2L)
would JD MBA be a poor choice? I'm a strike out at CCN>

I would like to note that getting an MBA was something I've thought about and it's not something I want to do just because I struck out.


Yeah, the problem with the JD/MBA is that you will never fully leverage the degree. You will always be wasting half of it.

I have 2 buddies who did it.

1 is a corporate attorney in biglaw who never uses the MBA

the other went to McKinsey where his law degree is worthless


In short: it is very expensive to go get that dual degree. Do it if you KNOW you want to do business instead. If you plan on going into law anyway, stay the course and stuck with a JD only


I think I wouldn't mind either way. Although I do have a greater interest in business. I'm taking some classes at the business school and I think I'd be happier in business.
The problem is I'm here at sticker. I would graduate at probably with almost 400k in debt for the extra year + interest.
I also have only 1-2 years of work experience. Don't know how an MBA will work out for me without WE.

As a strike out, both of those options are okay with me ...

ClubberLang

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby ClubberLang » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:55 pm

Voyager wrote:
ClubberLang wrote:
Voyager wrote:1) all of my top law school classmates are miserable in biglaw. It sucks.

I'm not trying to "kill your dreams"... Just trying to make you aware of an objectively superior option.

Taking questions (nice, slow Halloween Friday at the office)


Since you are taking questions, why did you think this would be a worthwhile post? Anyone who will read your post has already heard how bad big law is and how poor a life choice going to law school was. Objectively, you sound like a tool. Congrats on your remarkable success though.


Nice to see this place hasn't changed much in 5 years.

Good luck to you. I am sure you will be successful as you seem utterly delightful.


Thanks man. Keep fighting the good fight. We look forward to hearing more about your successes and superior life decisions.

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:56 pm

gnomgnomuch wrote:Currently considering doing an MPP before LS - or maybe instead of LS - at LSE or a school of that quality, are MPP's objectively worse than MBA's?
Also, what type of consulting? - forgive ignorance, but I don't know what consulting even is, so if you clear that up it would be helpful.

No business background - taken some basic classes like calc 1 and 2, econ and marketing - but that's it.

Also, your RC guide was super helpful, thank you for that as well.


McKinsey hires PhDs, JDs, MBAs and MDs. No masters degrees... At least not for Associate positions.

PhD in public policy would get you considered, assuming a top program.

Business background is a plus but not required.

I am glad those guides I wrote are still helping people.

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:58 pm

iliketurtles123 wrote:
Voyager wrote:
iliketurtles123 wrote:Thinking about business school (I'm a 2L)
would JD MBA be a poor choice? I'm a strike out at CCN>

I would like to note that getting an MBA was something I've thought about and it's not something I want to do just because I struck out.


Yeah, the problem with the JD/MBA is that you will never fully leverage the degree. You will always be wasting half of it.

I have 2 buddies who did it.

1 is a corporate attorney in biglaw who never uses the MBA

the other went to McKinsey where his law degree is worthless


In short: it is very expensive to go get that dual degree. Do it if you KNOW you want to do business instead. If you plan on going into law anyway, stay the course and stuck with a JD only


I think I wouldn't mind either way. Although I do have a greater interest in business. I'm taking some classes at the business school and I think I'd be happier in business.
The problem is I'm here at sticker. I would graduate at probably with almost 400k in debt for the extra year + interest.
I also have only 1-2 years of work experience. Don't know how an MBA will work out for me without WE.

As a strike out, both of those options are okay with me ...


Schools are pretty flexible in helping you get into a joint degree program.

The real problem is what you pointed out: the massive debt at graduation

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:58 pm

ClubberLang wrote:
Voyager wrote:
ClubberLang wrote:
Voyager wrote:1) all of my top law school classmates are miserable in biglaw. It sucks.

I'm not trying to "kill your dreams"... Just trying to make you aware of an objectively superior option.

Taking questions (nice, slow Halloween Friday at the office)


Since you are taking questions, why did you think this would be a worthwhile post? Anyone who will read your post has already heard how bad big law is and how poor a life choice going to law school was. Objectively, you sound like a tool. Congrats on your remarkable success though.


Nice to see this place hasn't changed much in 5 years.

Good luck to you. I am sure you will be successful as you seem utterly delightful.


Thanks man. Keep fighting the good fight. We look forward to hearing more about your successes and superior life decisions.


You are welcome.

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sesto elemento

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby sesto elemento » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:00 pm

No question, but thanks for the RC tips. Best of luck in your future endeavors!

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Rahviveh

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:01 pm

"Just do McKinsey bro"

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banjo

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby banjo » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:01 pm

Any career advice for 2Ls or 3Ls who are probably going to start at big firms?

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:03 pm

Rahviveh wrote:"Just do McKinsey bro"

More like: "just do top MBA. Even if you go to F500 right away, you will be better off"

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:07 pm

banjo wrote:Any career advice for 2Ls or 3Ls who are probably going to start at big firms?


Poop, friend. From what I gather from my 4th yr biglaw friends:

1) build good relationship with a few key partners
2) get ready to work long hours while being treated badly
3) be very aware of firm hierarchy. Partners may care about even the order in which you put them in an Email address bar
4) try to pick a specialty. Seems to me that Tax and Employment Law are good ones.
Better hours and culture

I'm the wrong guy to ask, though

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Dr Clifford Huxtable

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Dr Clifford Huxtable » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:10 pm

Thanks for doing this.

Question:

Did you also prepare for Big Law jobs while trying to get consulting? If so, how difficult was it to prep cases for McKinsey while also bidding firms?

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:19 pm

Dr Clifford Huxtable wrote:Thanks for doing this.

Question:

Did you also prepare for Big Law jobs while trying to get consulting? If so, how difficult was it to prep cases for McKinsey while also bidding firms?


I had already accepted an offer from a V50 by the time I was interviewing at McKinsey. I took great delight in retracting my acceptance when I got the McKinsey offer. Don't feel bad for the law firm: those guys have ZERO loyalty to you (I watched firms-mine included- retract offers)

I focused almost exclusively on case interview prep for about 6-8 weeks. Blew off class work etc.

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby ClubberLang » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:43 pm

1. How did you become so prestigious?

2. How big is your house?

3. Is your wife hot?

4. Would you quit your job if you found out you were going to have to report to someone younger than you?

5. What font is best for business cards?

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BruceWayne

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:52 pm

How do I get into PwC, Accenture, KPMG type business roles with no professional W/E prior to law school but one year of public interest government work afterwards? Top 10 JD and business type ugrad major. Very bad JD grades.

Used your LSAT guide back in the day; it was helpful.

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:05 pm

ClubberLang wrote:1. How did you become so prestigious?

2. How big is your house?

3. Is your wife hot?

4. Would you quit your job if you found out you were going to have to report to someone younger than you?

5. What font is best for business cards?


Excellent questions, all.

1) lots of hard work. I learned math and how to lead early

2) it is a nice house. I actually own 2, though. The one in FL is bigger (bought at bottom of market)

3) my wife is beautiful, witty and very smart she speaks 5 languages. I love her very much.

4) Nope! At McKinsey I once worked for an Engagement Manager who was 10 years my junior but was damn smart. Learned a lot from her. I don't believe in tenure as a proxy for ability. People should get promoted as fast as they can handle it.

5) I have never designed my own business cards. I like the current font I have but am not sure the style.

I hope that helps. I assume you are 23 or something? Good luck to you.
Last edited by Voyager on Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Voyager

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby Voyager » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:06 pm

BruceWayne wrote:How do I get into PwC, Accenture, KPMG type business roles with no professional W/E prior to law school but one year of public interest government work afterwards? Top 10 JD and business type ugrad major. Very bad JD grades.

Used your LSAT guide back in the day; it was helpful.


I don't know. I have no real exposure to that tier of consulting firm. Those firms are more about tactical implementation than strategy.

You might try Wall Street Oasis for such questions.

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twenty

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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school

Postby twenty » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:21 pm

I honestly know nothing about this path, but it seems odd to me that only CCN+ would have access to this as a career option. This all feels a bit unicorn-y. Like, "hey, don't do biglaw, do a bristow fellowship instead!" What advice would you have for someone with 1-3 years of meh work experience attending a lower T14 on a partial scholarship? If you attended a "less prestigious" school like Cornell or Northwestern, is this career option just not in the cards?



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