(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school Forum

[Voyager]

I am not sure why everyone is being such a shitlord. This is a really helpful thread, thanks.

Thanks man. Glad to help. Semper Fi. The EGA tattoo is starting to fade a bit, but its still on my shoulder.

[juzam_djinn]

how about the job security at mck? I've read lots of data suggesting it's a ~50% shot to make it to your next promotion within the 2-3 year stint...this is actually a huge reason that i stopped looking at consulting gigs. The firm is a place where I can, admittedly, grind for 5+ years w/o needing to "make rank."

What is your view on the up or out culture?

Yes. It is up or out. Brutally so. But here is the thing: companies are killing themselves to hire you when you leave. You will bring a skill set to any company that is highly advanced and rare. Companies will pay a premium for it.

And MORE: McKinsey will let you job hunt for several MONTHS with FULL PAY when you decide to leave! They also put you in touch with the extensive McKInsey alumni network as well as a special McKinsey job board and executive head hunters.

You will land on your feet big time when you leave.

I will tell you right now that my team pretty much exclusively interviews MBB kids. We love them.

MBB kids are a rare commodity. Big law attorneys? Not so much. There are also fewer exit jobs for big law people. Simple supply and demand.

Appreciate the response. It really does echo everything else I've heard about how brutal the up or out system is. Good point re: exit options, and I guess the positive compared to big law is that you "get" to exit earlier. However, I've read tons and tons of info and know more than enough MBB alum, and I can't help but feel that your account of the golden ticket is a bit exaggerated. Most of the alum I know end up going back to b-school (HWS, fwiw) or taking some meh corporate strategy gig. Sounds like you cashed in big time though, so props on that. I guess it really comes down to how risk-averse you are w/ your starting job out of grad school.

[Voyager]

how about the job security at mck? I've read lots of data suggesting it's a ~50% shot to make it to your next promotion within the 2-3 year stint...this is actually a huge reason that i stopped looking at consulting gigs. The firm is a place where I can, admittedly, grind for 5+ years w/o needing to "make rank."

What is your view on the up or out culture?

Yes. It is up or out. Brutally so. But here is the thing: companies are killing themselves to hire you when you leave. You will bring a skill set to any company that is highly advanced and rare. Companies will pay a premium for it.

And MORE: McKinsey will let you job hunt for several MONTHS with FULL PAY when you decide to leave! They also put you in touch with the extensive McKInsey alumni network as well as a special McKinsey job board and executive head hunters.

You will land on your feet big time when you leave.

I will tell you right now that my team pretty much exclusively interviews MBB kids. We love them.

MBB kids are a rare commodity. Big law attorneys? Not so much. There are also fewer exit jobs for big law people. Simple supply and demand.

Appreciate the response. It really does echo everything else I've heard about how brutal the up or out system is. Good point re: exit options, and I guess the positive compared to big law is that you "get" to exit earlier. However, I've read tons and tons of info and know more than enough MBB alum, and I can't help but feel that your account of the golden ticket is a bit exaggerated. Most of the alum I know end up going back to b-school (HWS, fwiw) or taking some meh corporate strategy gig. Sounds like you cashed in big time though, so props on that. I guess it really comes down to how risk-averse you are w/ your starting job out of grad school.

The alums you know were analysts (undergrads). I am talking about associates and higher (grad school kids). And all of us at that level land nice gigs post-MBBs. ALL of them. It's safe, fun, lucrative, sustainable.

EDIT: need to add that the MBB analysts? Yeah they ALSO can go to Goldman Sachs or PE and MAKE LOADS OF MONEY. MUCH more than those biglaw guys. Much more.

[Auraeolux]

1) I just did better than them in the case interviews. I had clear, organized answers that I could explain well, that had clever solutions and that were arrived at through solid math. Check out http://www.caseinterview.com. You can see example case interviews there to get a sense of what I mean

2) Not sure about going straight to an MBA from undergrad. As you say, almost everyone has a few years of work experience. Why not go work for a bit as an analyst in a marketing department? Very good experience for you. You might try a prospective MBA forum to ask about going straight to business school. I really think you want some years of experience first. You'll be a more mature, self sufficient and experienced human being than your friends who just went right to law school

Also, marketing happens to be a math heavy business function that will get you thinking the way I need you to be thinking if you want to eventually go into business strategy.

3) Banking on going from law school to MBB is a huge gamble because the odds are low and there is no back up plan in the business world. If you go the top MBA route and strike out at MBB, you will still have lots of other GREAT options.

So would I be in a more advantageous position to switch from a Finance Major to Marketing? I'm not too deep into my major and already have like 35 more credits than the average student who entered in the same year as me so I wouldn't be sacrificing much time wise if I switch. My school offers a degree in digital Marketing management that is very research/ number intensive. Obviously your answer won't be the sole factor in my decision, but it would definitely be appreciated!

[Gunnar Stahl]

What do you do at the F500 now?

I am a leader of a strategy team. I advise senior leaders/C-suite on how to improve various parts of the business, develop new revenue channels, reduce costs, etc.

As an aside: GO SPARTANS. I enjoyed watching U Michigan get demolished for the umpteenth year in a row.

Are you willing to say what industry you work in? If not that's cool.

[Voyager]

What do you do at the F500 now?

I am a leader of a strategy team. I advise senior leaders/C-suite on how to improve various parts of the business, develop new revenue channels, reduce costs, etc.

As an aside: GO SPARTANS. I enjoyed watching U Michigan get demolished for the umpteenth year in a row.

Are you willing to say what industry you work in? If not that's cool.

I'd prefer not to, if that's ok. I don't think that piece of information really matters much in this conversation.

[oldtimeywestern]

I would like to echo the thanks. I can't understand why so many people here are hostile to you in this very helpful and informative thread.

MBB have hosted a number of recruiting events at my lower T14, maybe the recruiting is picking up?

How much variation is there in your schedule? Do you have many weeks with spikes in work hours, and how foreseeable are those longer weeks? Do you know months ahead of time if one week is going to be particularly bad, or is it ever last minute?

[romothesavior]

Everyone tone down the hostility. Thanks.

[loomy78]

taggy

[84651846190]

Business school is waaaaaay better for people who have prior work experience in engineering or some other useful field. Law school is better for people who don't.

[84651846190]

Everyone tone down the hostility. Thanks.

Will do. Thanks,

[twenty]

You're subconsciously making a better argument than I think you're aware you're making. Most of the other posters are (probably rightfully) upset that you're coming across as "just do McKinsey bro." On its face, this is not particularly helpful, since very few other posters on this site have McKinsey as a viable option. On the other hand, this is actually a really valuable thread for previously mentioned reasons.

The thing is, McKinsey/F500/whatever is not even a OH THANK GOD I GOT THIS job in comparison to the other spots you had available with your background. You're kind of downplaying some of your experience a bit, which I think is unfortunate, because people on TLS should be doing exactly what you did. You didn't succeed because you did everything the way TLS told you you should, you did because you're an outlier in doing what most TLSers won't. For non-masturbatory reasons, typical prospective law students should read this thread to see what career options they'll be missing out on by attending law school straight out of undergrad.

It is kind of shitty that when this thread dies, most people on this site will write you off as a special snowflake exception. But that's also the nature of echo chambers - people end up hearing what they want to hear.

Did you have the GI Bill?

[paranoia4ya]

How do I get into PwC, Accenture, KPMG type business roles with no professional W/E prior to law school but one year of public interest government work afterwards? Top 10 JD and business type ugrad major. Very bad JD grades.

Used your LSAT guide back in the day; it was helpful.

I don't know. I have no real exposure to that tier of consulting firm. Those firms are more about tactical implementation than strategy.

You might try Wall Street Oasis for such questions.

TCR is pass the cpa exam before you apply if you qualify

[juzam_djinn]

how about the job security at mck? I've read lots of data suggesting it's a ~50% shot to make it to your next promotion within the 2-3 year stint...this is actually a huge reason that i stopped looking at consulting gigs. The firm is a place where I can, admittedly, grind for 5+ years w/o needing to "make rank."

What is your view on the up or out culture?

Yes. It is up or out. Brutally so. But here is the thing: companies are killing themselves to hire you when you leave. You will bring a skill set to any company that is highly advanced and rare. Companies will pay a premium for it.

And MORE: McKinsey will let you job hunt for several MONTHS with FULL PAY when you decide to leave! They also put you in touch with the extensive McKInsey alumni network as well as a special McKinsey job board and executive head hunters.

You will land on your feet big time when you leave.

I will tell you right now that my team pretty much exclusively interviews MBB kids. We love them.

MBB kids are a rare commodity. Big law attorneys? Not so much. There are also fewer exit jobs for big law people. Simple supply and demand.

Appreciate the response. It really does echo everything else I've heard about how brutal the up or out system is. Good point re: exit options, and I guess the positive compared to big law is that you "get" to exit earlier. However, I've read tons and tons of info and know more than enough MBB alum, and I can't help but feel that your account of the golden ticket is a bit exaggerated. Most of the alum I know end up going back to b-school (HWS, fwiw) or taking some meh corporate strategy gig. Sounds like you cashed in big time though, so props on that. I guess it really comes down to how risk-averse you are w/ your starting job out of grad school.

The alums you know were analysts (undergrads). I am talking about associates and higher (grad school kids). And all of us at that level land nice gigs post-MBBs. ALL of them. It's safe, fun, lucrative, sustainable.

EDIT: need to add that the MBB analysts? Yeah they ALSO can go to Goldman Sachs or PE and MAKE LOADS OF MONEY. MUCH more than those biglaw guys. Much more.

yeah I know they were analysts, and as an analyst your exit options are actually better. Very few associates exiting MBB are getting PE gigs (unless you have data that says otherwise, but from what I hear this is undeniable)...From what you say though, it's an absolute guarantee to land a comfortable position in a big company, which sounds pretty good as well.

either way, thanks for the perspective it is very helpful. I agree that biz is the way to go for 90% of people making the decision. I would say that some people went into law school not b/c they solely wanted to make $ and have good QoL jobs. Rather, they went in b/c they were idealistic or prestige-hungry (and prestige DNE $), or some combination of both. So no matter what, your advice doesn't hold for everyone. As a caveat for those people though, it is VERY hard to get those unicorn jobs out of law school (prestigious gov, SCOTUS clerk, super elite boutique, politics, etc.). Very likely to be disappointed if this is the goal. So as funny as it sounds, b-school seems like the more risk-averse option at times. Interview process for finance/consulting is way harder than biglaw's, but not nearly as hard as trying to finish top 5% in your T14, which is what you need to be competitive for the jobs that rival or exceed those of your MBA counterparts. =/

[Voyager]

I would like to echo the thanks. I can't understand why so many people here are hostile to you in this very helpful and informative thread.

MBB have hosted a number of recruiting events at my lower T14, maybe the recruiting is picking up?

How much variation is there in your schedule? Do you have many weeks with spikes in work hours, and how foreseeable are those longer weeks? Do you know months ahead of time if one week is going to be particularly bad, or is it ever last minute?

At McKinsey? Expect to travel 4 days a week. Expect to show up at the client site at 8:30am. Expect to keep working even back at the hotel through 10pm. Fridays are in your home office. 8:30am/9am to about 5pm. Expect some weekend work (~4 hours). Expect about 65 hours/week on average.

Depends on the project and where in the project life cycle you are.

You can roughly guess when times are going to be bad.

Taking time off between projects is easy, generally.

[iliketurtles123]

I would like to echo the thanks. I can't understand why so many people here are hostile to you in this very helpful and informative thread.

MBB have hosted a number of recruiting events at my lower T14, maybe the recruiting is picking up?

How much variation is there in your schedule? Do you have many weeks with spikes in work hours, and how foreseeable are those longer weeks? Do you know months ahead of time if one week is going to be particularly bad, or is it ever last minute?

At McKinsey? Expect to travel 4 days a week. Expect to show up at the client site at 8:30am. Expect to keep working even back at the hotel through 10pm. Fridays are in your home office. 8:30am/9am to about 5pm. Expect some weekend work (~4 hours). Expect about 65 hours/week on average.

Depends on the project and where in the project life cycle you are.

You can roughly guess when times are going to be bad.

Taking time off between projects is easy, generally.

Do you consider Sundays as an "off day"? If you're going to the client site on Monday morning, wouldn't Sunday just be getting ready to travel?

This doesn't sound all that bad except the travel aspect.

[dabigchina]

I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.

[jmjm]

Why you not chose hys? I assume that your lsat/gpa/work ex would have given you a strong shot there.

If someone is set on consulting then they should go to b school over law school, it's not new. NW places about 30% of their class into mbb alone and they are not even a top 3 b school.

[Voyager]

You're subconsciously making a better argument than I think you're aware you're making. Most of the other posters are (probably rightfully) upset that you're coming across as "just do McKinsey bro." On its face, this is not particularly helpful, since very few other posters on this site have McKinsey as a viable option. On the other hand, this is actually a really valuable thread for previously mentioned reasons.

The thing is, McKinsey/F500/whatever is not even a OH THANK GOD I GOT THIS job in comparison to the other spots you had available with your background. You're kind of downplaying some of your experience a bit, which I think is unfortunate, because people on TLS should be doing exactly what you did. You didn't succeed because you did everything the way TLS told you you should, you did because you're an outlier in doing what most TLSers won't. For non-masturbatory reasons, typical prospective law students should read this thread to see what career options they'll be missing out on by attending law school straight out of undergrad.

It is kind of shitty that when this thread dies, most people on this site will write you off as a special snowflake exception. But that's also the nature of echo chambers - people end up hearing what they want to hear.

Did you have the GI Bill?

Fair points, friend. I want to reiterate that this thread is NOT about going to MBB over law firms. It is actually about going to business school over law school. I also think that getting into a top MBA program is quite achievable for someone who is gunning for a top 10 law school... which is a nice segue to the rest of your post:

YES, I AGREE, there is another discussion to be had around using your 20s well. So many of my law school peers lost their 20s to studying and researching worthless legal garbage for 70 hours a week starting in law school.

It's sad. Your will never be in as good shape as you are in your 20s. You will never have as much freedom and ability to recover from major errors as you do in your 20s. Why waste them on Lexis Nexis?

To your point, I did not do that. I was a Marine, a business leader, a commission salesman, a real estate investor.

I lived on a sail boat. I lived on 2 different beaches. I lived on a sail boat next to a 3rd beach. I lived on the West Coast, the Mid-Atlantic, the deep South and the Far East.

I dated a spy (as in literally an intelligence agent), a hardcore feminist writer, a nurse, a non-profit social justice warrior, several female Marines and sailors, and all manner of cashiers, waitresses, college students etc

I made HUGE mistakes. Colossal mistakes. Work mistakes and dating mistakes both. Sometimes at the same time.

I learned to surf. I learned to sail. I learned to ride a motorcycle.

Those experiences are what make me who I am. They give you perspective. They teach you about other humans. They teach you about career paths. They give you fantastic stories to tell at parties.

You think people want to hear you regale them regarding that time you stayed up to 1am reading about Palsgraf?

Another poster above said "business school is great for those with experience; law school is great for those with none." My point is: why not go get some "experience" (however you define it) instead of just trotting off to law school? You only need 3-5 years of work time doing something half-way useful for business schools to take you seriously. Why not go do that?

GO LIVE. HAVE ADVENTURES. I think one reason why many lawyers are so sad is that they never went and lived a bit. They went right into the grind.

Point is: Twenty raises a very important topic. He's right. I suppose this topic probably deserves a thread of its own...


EDIT: No GI bill. I was a Navy ROTC guy.

[Voyager]

I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.

Heh. Yes. I very much regret going to law school over business school.

I am telling these people to go get some work experience. If they can prep the LSAT and score a 172, they can sure as hell prep GMAT and score a 720+.

[WhirledWorld]

As a duder who picked V5 over MBB, I agree with a lot that's been said, just need to throw in a few caveats:

• Biggest thing is that I think MBB lifestyle < NYC biglaw lifestyle. The constant travel is part of it; the lifestyle demands de-prioritizing your family and friends. At least in biglaw you can have one meal most days with your family. MBB is even more up-or-out and is definitely higher pressure than being a biglaw junior (some people may like that though). That was probably the biggest shock in looking into consulting -- it sounded so awesome, but everyone seemed so miserable.
• Why aren't we talking about in-house legal jobs? I'd say they're almost as good as the coveted in-house strategy jobs that MBB folks target. Usually good hours for very high pay (all in comp is often $200k or more at F500). If we're gonna talk about top MBA v. top JD or biglaw v. bigcorp, seems we should also compare biglaw exits with bigconsulting exits.
• Getting a top MBA (nearly) requires top business experience -- something equivalent to analyst for BB bank or marketing analyst for Coca-cola or whatever. A lot of people just don't have the connections/luck/undergrad degree to snag those jobs.

[Voyager]

Why you not chose hys? I assume that your lsat/gpa/work ex would have given you a strong shot there.

If someone is set on consulting then they should go to b school over law school, it's not new. NW places about 30% of their class into mbb alone and they are not even a top 3 b school.

My undergrad GPA was not great. So I was rejected at HYS. I did well on the LSAT, though.

AGAIN, I am not arguing consulting specifically. I am saying that most options post business school are much better than law school options.

[Voyager]

As a duder who picked V5 over MBB, I agree with a lot that's been said, just need to throw in a few caveats:

• Biggest thing is that I think MBB lifestyle < NYC biglaw lifestyle. The constant travel is part of it; the lifestyle demands de-prioritizing your family and friends. At least in biglaw you can have one meal most days with your family. MBB is even more up-or-out and is definitely higher pressure than being a biglaw junior (some people may like that though). That was probably the biggest shock in looking into consulting -- it sounded so awesome, but everyone seemed so miserable.
• Why aren't we talking about in-house legal jobs? I'd say they're almost as good as the coveted in-house strategy jobs that MBB folks target. Usually good hours for very high pay (all in comp is often $200k or more at F500). If we're gonna talk about top MBA v. top JD or biglaw v. bigcorp, seems we should also compare biglaw exits with bigconsulting exits.
• Getting a top MBA (nearly) requires top business experience -- something equivalent to analyst for BB bank or marketing analyst for Coca-cola or whatever. A lot of people just don't have the connections/luck/undergrad degree to snag those jobs.

Fair points. I quibble with the last one. I know lots of people who went to top MBAs and had rather average business experience. You don't need much, really. Kill the GMAT and worked in any number of various corporate functions and you should have a great shot.

In house jobs are more difficult to get for big law guys than anything is for MBB guys. There are lots of attorneys out there. Lots of them.

But sure, I agree that going in house is nice for lawyers.

[dabigchina]

I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.

Heh. Yes. I very much regret going to law school over business school.

I am telling these people to go get some work experience. If they can prep the LSAT and score a 172, they can sure as hell prep GMAT and score a 720+.

Problem is you can't just go out and get experience at a f500, consulting, banking (not going to mention big4 accounting because that will get you laughed out of town). There's a reason those jobs are so coveted. For your run of the mill student at a mediocre state u with a 3.7 in history I'd say law school/biglaw is much more attainable and reasonably lucrative.

[Voyager]

I'm shocked you went to law school in the first place. Your work experience positioned you well for elite MBA.

For most of the other people on this forum though, it's just not possible for them to get in. Work experience that would count as being very legit for law school would get you laughed out of town at an elite MBA.

This is why people perceive your posts as self congratulatory and not very useful.

Heh. Yes. I very much regret going to law school over business school.

I am telling these people to go get some work experience. If they can prep the LSAT and score a 172, they can sure as hell prep GMAT and score a 720+.

Problem is you can't just go out and get experience at a f500, consulting, banking (not going to mention big4 accounting because that will get you laughed out of town). There's a reason those jobs are so coveted. For your run of the mill student at a mediocre state u with a 3.7 in history I'd say law school/biglaw is much more attainable and reasonably lucrative.

I think you are way overestimating the work pedigrees top MBA programs require. I have seen all kinds of backgrounds. And they are not all F500, MBB people. Not by a long shot.

Ex-military, non-profits, nurses, programmers, analysts in various corporate functions. Hell, an assistant manager from Target would probably be highly sought after! Why? Because MBA programs want a class with diverse backgrounds. It makes the discussion more interesting.

In short: I disagree with you. I think that a decent undergrad kid could go work in commission sales for 4 years, go kill the GMAT and get in to any number of top MBA programs.