(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school Forum
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
I have two reactions to this thread. The first is that Voyager is right about law - I'm c/o 2013, and many of my classmates are already making moves to get out altogether. Lots of people will stay in the field just long enough to pay off debt. But you all already know that. (That's not to say that law students understand the uniquely disheartening experience that is working in biglaw while being hugely in debt until they experience it for themselves, but at least they know its coming.)\
But I'm skeptical that things would be better if only we did consulting. I did MBB before law school, and I think the lifestyle, at least at McKinsey/BCG (Bain travels less) is worse. Hours are similar, but the travel can really take a toll on both your life and health. Second, if you go into consulting post-law school (as an associate, rather than an analyst), you are not going to have the instantly-lucrative exit options that so many fetishize (hedge fund, PE). Third, compensation aside, I also am not sure that working in middle-management at a F500 is necessarily more interesting or rewarding than working as a lawyer. (Of course, if you work at MBB, you can probably hold out for a position that is, but you've already agreed that not everyone will have that pedigree.)
I do agree that going that route is a lot more stable than working biglaw though.
But I'm skeptical that things would be better if only we did consulting. I did MBB before law school, and I think the lifestyle, at least at McKinsey/BCG (Bain travels less) is worse. Hours are similar, but the travel can really take a toll on both your life and health. Second, if you go into consulting post-law school (as an associate, rather than an analyst), you are not going to have the instantly-lucrative exit options that so many fetishize (hedge fund, PE). Third, compensation aside, I also am not sure that working in middle-management at a F500 is necessarily more interesting or rewarding than working as a lawyer. (Of course, if you work at MBB, you can probably hold out for a position that is, but you've already agreed that not everyone will have that pedigree.)
I do agree that going that route is a lot more stable than working biglaw though.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.
I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.
I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.
Last edited by Hutz_and_Goodman on Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Colonel_funkadunk
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
I haven't gone to law school yet.
Should I skip it and go big business?
Should I skip it and go big business?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
I do find it a bit odd that people are assuming that because you are at a top law school you have the credentials to do MBB. If anything it's probably an indication that you don't; as the level of math skills needed to impress MBB and excel in the case interview are such that someone who fits that profile would be unlikely to attend law school in the first place (unless they are truly passionate about being a lawyer over anything else). That's just a very different skill set and why I mentioned the more mid level companies that don't all focus on quant skills and case interviews.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Knowing what you know now, would you recommend HYSC over a full ride or close to it at MVP? Do you think there truly is significantly more value at the top schools to be worth giving up scholarship money at other places?
Thanks
Thanks
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Actually, I was a biglaw summer associate at a V50. Got an offer to come back too.bailey8078 wrote:It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?
I applied to McKinsey in September of 3L. I even applied online and did not do OCI.
Best best is probably to do OCI
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Oh thats good to hear. Any advice on things to do during the 2L SA experience that would be beneficial during interviews? Trying to work on a particular type of project, with a particular type of client, etc.Voyager wrote:Actually, I was a biglaw summer associate at a V50. Got an offer to come back too.bailey8078 wrote:It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?
I applied to McKinsey in September of 3L. I even applied online and did not do OCI.
Best best is probably to do OCI
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Fair enough. Law school is probably not the answer, though.Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.
I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.
What about PMF?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Hell yes! Not even joking, here, friend.Colonel_funkadunk wrote:I haven't gone to law school yet.
Should I skip it and go big business?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
I am out of touch with the current differences in legal hiring at this point. In 2010, during the Dark Times, however, there WAS a major difference. Only top 30% at Michigan was getting biglaw.jimmymac wrote:Knowing what you know now, would you recommend HYSC over a full ride or close to it at MVP? Do you think there truly is significantly more value at the top schools to be worth giving up scholarship money at other places?
Thanks
I guess knowing what I know about how awful law is, I guess I would recommend going for the scholarship so that when you inevitably find yourself in the midst of a law-induced suicidal depression, you at least can easily walk away from your job.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
I'm a 3L about to embark on big law. Good news is that I attended law school on full scholarship and so the plan is big law for 2-3 years and then hopefully mid law or in house.Voyager wrote:Fair enough. Law school is probably not the answer, though.Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.
I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.
What about PMF?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Fair enough, friend. True.BruceWayne wrote:I do find it a bit odd that people are assuming that because you are at a top law school you have the credentials to do MBB. If anything it's probably an indication that you don't; as the level of math skills needed to impress MBB and excel in the case interview are such that someone who fits that profile would be unlikely to attend law school in the first place (unless they are truly passionate about being a lawyer over anything else). That's just a very different skill set and why I mentioned the more mid level companies that don't all focus on quant skills and case interviews.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Good luck to you! That full scholarship is a huge win. The firm won't have you chained to your desk. In house law gigs are pretty dang civilized, so you can look forward to that.Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I'm a 3L about to embark on big law. Good news is that I attended law school on full scholarship and so the plan is big law for 2-3 years and then hopefully mid law or in house.Voyager wrote:Fair enough. Law school is probably not the answer, though.Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.
I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.
What about PMF?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Fair points, all. I would say that the work you do at MBB is more impactful and interesting. I also think that the MBA kids I am hiring into my F500 team are also getting to solve real business problems and then present their work personally to EVPs. Feels much more rewarding and interesting than looking for commas in contracts to me.nickelanddime wrote:I have two reactions to this thread. The first is that Voyager is right about law - I'm c/o 2013, and many of my classmates are already making moves to get out altogether. Lots of people will stay in the field just long enough to pay off debt. But you all already know that. (That's not to say that law students understand the uniquely disheartening experience that is working in biglaw while being hugely in debt until they experience it for themselves, but at least they know its coming.)\
But I'm skeptical that things would be better if only we did consulting. I did MBB before law school, and I think the lifestyle, at least at McKinsey/BCG (Bain travels less) is worse. Hours are similar, but the travel can really take a toll on both your life and health. Second, if you go into consulting post-law school (as an associate, rather than an analyst), you are not going to have the instantly-lucrative exit options that so many fetishize (hedge fund, PE). Third, compensation aside, I also am not sure that working in middle-management at a F500 is necessarily more interesting or rewarding than working as a lawyer. (Of course, if you work at MBB, you can probably hold out for a position that is, but you've already agreed that not everyone will have that pedigree.)
I do agree that going that route is a lot more stable than working biglaw though.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
No. They won't care. Doesn't matter.bailey8078 wrote:Oh thats good to hear. Any advice on things to do during the 2L SA experience that would be beneficial during interviews? Trying to work on a particular type of project, with a particular type of client, etc.Voyager wrote:Actually, I was a biglaw summer associate at a V50. Got an offer to come back too.bailey8078 wrote:It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?
I applied to McKinsey in September of 3L. I even applied online and did not do OCI.
Best best is probably to do OCI
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
McKinsey gave 1 callback from 20 interviews as Yale last year...
Just do McKinsey isn't particularly useful advice, true as it may be.
Just do McKinsey isn't particularly useful advice, true as it may be.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Yeah, we didn't hire too many Yalies ever. Never ran into a single one. Not sure why. We had LOADS of HLS kids, however. Some CLS and NYU as well.Elston Gunn wrote:McKinsey gave 1 callback from 20 interviews as Yale last year...
Just do McKinsey isn't particularly useful advice, true as it may be.
But you are missing the main thrust of this thread. It's not about going to MBB from law school (although, yeah, much better idea than going to a law firm).
What I am saying is DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL TO BEGIN WITH. GO GET AN MBA. ANY TOP MBA post graduate option is superior to law school.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
how about the job security at mck? I've read lots of data suggesting it's a ~50% shot to make it to your next promotion within the 2-3 year stint...this is actually a huge reason that i stopped looking at consulting gigs. The firm is a place where I can, admittedly, grind for 5+ years w/o needing to "make rank."
What is your view on the up or out culture?
What is your view on the up or out culture?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Yes. It is up or out. Brutally so. But here is the thing: companies are killing themselves to hire you when you leave. You will bring a skill set to any company that is highly advanced and rare. Companies will pay a premium for it.juzam_djinn wrote:how about the job security at mck? I've read lots of data suggesting it's a ~50% shot to make it to your next promotion within the 2-3 year stint...this is actually a huge reason that i stopped looking at consulting gigs. The firm is a place where I can, admittedly, grind for 5+ years w/o needing to "make rank."
What is your view on the up or out culture?
And MORE: McKinsey will let you job hunt for several MONTHS with FULL PAY when you decide to leave! They also put you in touch with the extensive McKInsey alumni network as well as a special McKinsey job board and executive head hunters.
You will land on your feet big time when you leave.
I will tell you right now that my team pretty much exclusively interviews MBB kids. We love them.
MBB kids are a rare commodity. Big law attorneys? Not so much. There are also fewer exit jobs for big law people. Simple supply and demand.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
Hi ! Thanks for making the thread.
I'm completely ignorant to the hiring process at your company and similar companies so this question may be obvious to you.
How did you and other law school graduates who did not have an extensive business history, demonstrate your math and communication proficiency over the B school graduates who didn't make it in?
I'm currently pursuing my finance major and have a great GPA, but don't know how easy to it is to get into a ~Top~ Business school straight out of undergrad since they notoriously require real world experience. Internship experience doesn't mean much, right? If I went straight to a top TLS (hopefully) , wouldn't it be quicker for me to graduate and hopefully land an interview? I realize that it's a lot riskier though, but then again, I'm not BBM or bust.
Thanks for making the thread! I did not realize that this could be an option.
I'm completely ignorant to the hiring process at your company and similar companies so this question may be obvious to you.
How did you and other law school graduates who did not have an extensive business history, demonstrate your math and communication proficiency over the B school graduates who didn't make it in?
I'm currently pursuing my finance major and have a great GPA, but don't know how easy to it is to get into a ~Top~ Business school straight out of undergrad since they notoriously require real world experience. Internship experience doesn't mean much, right? If I went straight to a top TLS (hopefully) , wouldn't it be quicker for me to graduate and hopefully land an interview? I realize that it's a lot riskier though, but then again, I'm not BBM or bust.
Thanks for making the thread! I did not realize that this could be an option.
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- SemperLegal
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
I am not sure why everyone is being such a shitlord. This is a really helpful thread, thanks.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
What do you do at the F500 now?
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
1) I just did better than them in the case interviews. I had clear, organized answers that I could explain well, that had clever solutions and that were arrived at through solid math. Check out http://www.caseinterview.com. You can see example case interviews there to get a sense of what I meanAuraeolux wrote:Hi ! Thanks for making the thread.
I'm completely ignorant to the hiring process at your company and similar companies so this question may be obvious to you.
How did you and other law school graduates who did not have an extensive business history, demonstrate your math and communication proficiency over the B school graduates who didn't make it in?
I'm currently pursuing my finance major and have a great GPA, but don't know how easy to it is to get into a ~Top~ Business school straight out of undergrad since they notoriously require real world experience. Internship experience doesn't mean much, right? If I went straight to a top TLS (hopefully) , wouldn't it be quicker for me to graduate and hopefully land an interview? I realize that it's a lot riskier though, but then again, I'm not BBM or bust.
Thanks for making the thread! I did not realize that this could be an option.
2) Not sure about going straight to an MBA from undergrad. As you say, almost everyone has a few years of work experience. Why not go work for a bit as an analyst in a marketing department? Very good experience for you. You might try a prospective MBA forum to ask about going straight to business school. I really think you want some years of experience first. You'll be a more mature, self sufficient and experienced human being than your friends who just went right to law school
Also, marketing happens to be a math heavy business function that will get you thinking the way I need you to be thinking if you want to eventually go into business strategy.
3) Banking on going from law school to MBB is a huge gamble because the odds are low and there is no back up plan in the business world. If you go the top MBA route and strike out at MBB, you will still have lots of other GREAT options.
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Re: (Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school
I am a leader of a strategy team. I advise senior leaders/C-suite on how to improve various parts of the business, develop new revenue channels, reduce costs, etc.Gunnar Stahl wrote:What do you do at the F500 now?
As an aside: GO SPARTANS. I enjoyed watching U Michigan get demolished for the umpteenth year in a row.
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