(Voyager) 4 years out. My advice? Go to business school Forum

[bailey8078]

It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?

[nickelanddime]

I have two reactions to this thread. The first is that Voyager is right about law - I'm c/o 2013, and many of my classmates are already making moves to get out altogether. Lots of people will stay in the field just long enough to pay off debt. But you all already know that. (That's not to say that law students understand the uniquely disheartening experience that is working in biglaw while being hugely in debt until they experience it for themselves, but at least they know its coming.)\

But I'm skeptical that things would be better if only we did consulting. I did MBB before law school, and I think the lifestyle, at least at McKinsey/BCG (Bain travels less) is worse. Hours are similar, but the travel can really take a toll on both your life and health. Second, if you go into consulting post-law school (as an associate, rather than an analyst), you are not going to have the instantly-lucrative exit options that so many fetishize (hedge fund, PE). Third, compensation aside, I also am not sure that working in middle-management at a F500 is necessarily more interesting or rewarding than working as a lawyer. (Of course, if you work at MBB, you can probably hold out for a position that is, but you've already agreed that not everyone will have that pedigree.)

I do agree that going that route is a lot more stable than working biglaw though.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.

I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.

[Colonel_funkadunk]

I haven't gone to law school yet.

Should I skip it and go big business?

[BruceWayne]

I do find it a bit odd that people are assuming that because you are at a top law school you have the credentials to do MBB. If anything it's probably an indication that you don't; as the level of math skills needed to impress MBB and excel in the case interview are such that someone who fits that profile would be unlikely to attend law school in the first place (unless they are truly passionate about being a lawyer over anything else). That's just a very different skill set and why I mentioned the more mid level companies that don't all focus on quant skills and case interviews.

[jimmymac]

Knowing what you know now, would you recommend HYSC over a full ride or close to it at MVP? Do you think there truly is significantly more value at the top schools to be worth giving up scholarship money at other places?

Thanks

[Voyager]

It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?

Actually, I was a biglaw summer associate at a V50. Got an offer to come back too.

I applied to McKinsey in September of 3L. I even applied online and did not do OCI.

Best best is probably to do OCI

[bailey8078]

It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?

Actually, I was a biglaw summer associate at a V50. Got an offer to come back too.

I applied to McKinsey in September of 3L. I even applied online and did not do OCI.

Best best is probably to do OCI

Oh thats good to hear. Any advice on things to do during the 2L SA experience that would be beneficial during interviews? Trying to work on a particular type of project, with a particular type of client, etc.

[Voyager]

OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.

I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.

Fair enough. Law school is probably not the answer, though.

What about PMF?

[Voyager]

I haven't gone to law school yet.

Should I skip it and go big business?

Hell yes! Not even joking, here, friend.

[Voyager]

Knowing what you know now, would you recommend HYSC over a full ride or close to it at MVP? Do you think there truly is significantly more value at the top schools to be worth giving up scholarship money at other places?

Thanks

I am out of touch with the current differences in legal hiring at this point. In 2010, during the Dark Times, however, there WAS a major difference. Only top 30% at Michigan was getting biglaw.

I guess knowing what I know about how awful law is, I guess I would recommend going for the scholarship so that when you inevitably find yourself in the midst of a law-induced suicidal depression, you at least can easily walk away from your job.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.

I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.

Fair enough. Law school is probably not the answer, though.

What about PMF?

I'm a 3L about to embark on big law. Good news is that I attended law school on full scholarship and so the plan is big law for 2-3 years and then hopefully mid law or in house.

[Voyager]

I do find it a bit odd that people are assuming that because you are at a top law school you have the credentials to do MBB. If anything it's probably an indication that you don't; as the level of math skills needed to impress MBB and excel in the case interview are such that someone who fits that profile would be unlikely to attend law school in the first place (unless they are truly passionate about being a lawyer over anything else). That's just a very different skill set and why I mentioned the more mid level companies that don't all focus on quant skills and case interviews.

Fair enough, friend. True.

[Voyager]

OP there is I'm sure some (or a lot of) truth to what you're saying, but a major consideration is that very few law students fit the profile of competent at math/excel, very good at social interaction, leadership skills. I agree that person with an MBA can make $200k+ in consulting with better hours. But even at a T14 the vast majority of law students are bad at math, mediocre to poor social skills, and no leadership experience/poor leadership.

I'm actually quite good at math, mediocre at social skills, and a poor leader bc I'm a control freak and have a hard time delegating important stuff unless I have a huge amount if confidence in the person I'm giving it to.

Fair enough. Law school is probably not the answer, though.

What about PMF?

I'm a 3L about to embark on big law. Good news is that I attended law school on full scholarship and so the plan is big law for 2-3 years and then hopefully mid law or in house.

Good luck to you! That full scholarship is a huge win. The firm won't have you chained to your desk. In house law gigs are pretty dang civilized, so you can look forward to that.

[Voyager]

I have two reactions to this thread. The first is that Voyager is right about law - I'm c/o 2013, and many of my classmates are already making moves to get out altogether. Lots of people will stay in the field just long enough to pay off debt. But you all already know that. (That's not to say that law students understand the uniquely disheartening experience that is working in biglaw while being hugely in debt until they experience it for themselves, but at least they know its coming.)\

But I'm skeptical that things would be better if only we did consulting. I did MBB before law school, and I think the lifestyle, at least at McKinsey/BCG (Bain travels less) is worse. Hours are similar, but the travel can really take a toll on both your life and health. Second, if you go into consulting post-law school (as an associate, rather than an analyst), you are not going to have the instantly-lucrative exit options that so many fetishize (hedge fund, PE). Third, compensation aside, I also am not sure that working in middle-management at a F500 is necessarily more interesting or rewarding than working as a lawyer. (Of course, if you work at MBB, you can probably hold out for a position that is, but you've already agreed that not everyone will have that pedigree.)

I do agree that going that route is a lot more stable than working biglaw though.

Fair points, all. I would say that the work you do at MBB is more impactful and interesting. I also think that the MBA kids I am hiring into my F500 team are also getting to solve real business problems and then present their work personally to EVPs. Feels much more rewarding and interesting than looking for commas in contracts to me.

[Voyager]

It looks like you applied for your job as a 2L and did an internship that summer. For those of us who have already done 2L OCI, but are still thinking about whether this would be a good opportunity, what do you think the odds are of landing a spot during 3L OCI or just generally during 2L summer? Any advice?

Actually, I was a biglaw summer associate at a V50. Got an offer to come back too.

I applied to McKinsey in September of 3L. I even applied online and did not do OCI.

Best best is probably to do OCI

Oh thats good to hear. Any advice on things to do during the 2L SA experience that would be beneficial during interviews? Trying to work on a particular type of project, with a particular type of client, etc.

No. They won't care. Doesn't matter.

[Elston Gunn]

McKinsey gave 1 callback from 20 interviews as Yale last year...

Just do McKinsey isn't particularly useful advice, true as it may be.

[Voyager]

McKinsey gave 1 callback from 20 interviews as Yale last year...

Just do McKinsey isn't particularly useful advice, true as it may be.

Yeah, we didn't hire too many Yalies ever. Never ran into a single one. Not sure why. We had LOADS of HLS kids, however. Some CLS and NYU as well.

But you are missing the main thrust of this thread. It's not about going to MBB from law school (although, yeah, much better idea than going to a law firm).

What I am saying is DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL TO BEGIN WITH. GO GET AN MBA. ANY TOP MBA post graduate option is superior to law school.

[juzam_djinn]

how about the job security at mck? I've read lots of data suggesting it's a ~50% shot to make it to your next promotion within the 2-3 year stint...this is actually a huge reason that i stopped looking at consulting gigs. The firm is a place where I can, admittedly, grind for 5+ years w/o needing to "make rank."

What is your view on the up or out culture?

[Voyager]

how about the job security at mck? I've read lots of data suggesting it's a ~50% shot to make it to your next promotion within the 2-3 year stint...this is actually a huge reason that i stopped looking at consulting gigs. The firm is a place where I can, admittedly, grind for 5+ years w/o needing to "make rank."

What is your view on the up or out culture?

Yes. It is up or out. Brutally so. But here is the thing: companies are killing themselves to hire you when you leave. You will bring a skill set to any company that is highly advanced and rare. Companies will pay a premium for it.

And MORE: McKinsey will let you job hunt for several MONTHS with FULL PAY when you decide to leave! They also put you in touch with the extensive McKInsey alumni network as well as a special McKinsey job board and executive head hunters.

You will land on your feet big time when you leave.

I will tell you right now that my team pretty much exclusively interviews MBB kids. We love them.

MBB kids are a rare commodity. Big law attorneys? Not so much. There are also fewer exit jobs for big law people. Simple supply and demand.

[Auraeolux]

Hi ! Thanks for making the thread.
I'm completely ignorant to the hiring process at your company and similar companies so this question may be obvious to you.

How did you and other law school graduates who did not have an extensive business history, demonstrate your math and communication proficiency over the B school graduates who didn't make it in?

I'm currently pursuing my finance major and have a great GPA, but don't know how easy to it is to get into a ~Top~ Business school straight out of undergrad since they notoriously require real world experience. Internship experience doesn't mean much, right? If I went straight to a top TLS (hopefully) , wouldn't it be quicker for me to graduate and hopefully land an interview? I realize that it's a lot riskier though, but then again, I'm not BBM or bust.

Thanks for making the thread! I did not realize that this could be an option.

[SemperLegal]

I am not sure why everyone is being such a shitlord. This is a really helpful thread, thanks.

[Gunnar Stahl]

What do you do at the F500 now?

[Voyager]

Hi ! Thanks for making the thread.
I'm completely ignorant to the hiring process at your company and similar companies so this question may be obvious to you.

How did you and other law school graduates who did not have an extensive business history, demonstrate your math and communication proficiency over the B school graduates who didn't make it in?

I'm currently pursuing my finance major and have a great GPA, but don't know how easy to it is to get into a ~Top~ Business school straight out of undergrad since they notoriously require real world experience. Internship experience doesn't mean much, right? If I went straight to a top TLS (hopefully) , wouldn't it be quicker for me to graduate and hopefully land an interview? I realize that it's a lot riskier though, but then again, I'm not BBM or bust.

Thanks for making the thread! I did not realize that this could be an option.

1) I just did better than them in the case interviews. I had clear, organized answers that I could explain well, that had clever solutions and that were arrived at through solid math. Check out http://www.caseinterview.com. You can see example case interviews there to get a sense of what I mean

2) Not sure about going straight to an MBA from undergrad. As you say, almost everyone has a few years of work experience. Why not go work for a bit as an analyst in a marketing department? Very good experience for you. You might try a prospective MBA forum to ask about going straight to business school. I really think you want some years of experience first. You'll be a more mature, self sufficient and experienced human being than your friends who just went right to law school

Also, marketing happens to be a math heavy business function that will get you thinking the way I need you to be thinking if you want to eventually go into business strategy.

3) Banking on going from law school to MBB is a huge gamble because the odds are low and there is no back up plan in the business world. If you go the top MBA route and strike out at MBB, you will still have lots of other GREAT options.

[Voyager]

What do you do at the F500 now?

I am a leader of a strategy team. I advise senior leaders/C-suite on how to improve various parts of the business, develop new revenue channels, reduce costs, etc.

As an aside: GO SPARTANS. I enjoyed watching U Michigan get demolished for the umpteenth year in a row.