BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

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rad lulz
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby rad lulz » Thu May 01, 2014 7:06 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby 09042014 » Thu May 01, 2014 7:52 pm

Ironically it's the firms who have already discounted who are getting squeezed. You are better off fighting for the work that actually pays than trying to walmart your way to fat stacks.

oblig.lawl.ref
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby oblig.lawl.ref » Thu May 01, 2014 9:29 pm

Any transactional side attorneys have input on the subject?

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IAFG
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby IAFG » Thu May 01, 2014 11:48 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Theopliske8711 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:No one makes partner. Its harder than it was before when it was nearly impossible.


I'm just wondering what the point would be of moving to a different firm. What would they negotiate with you on?


The only people I've known who have lateraled from biglaw firm to another biglaw firm did so because they wanted to be closer to family or follow a job their spouse had gotten. I have no idea why someone would try to lateral to a different biglaw firm to make partner (lol). None of the biglaw firms want to make you partner. Just accept that fact and your life will be a lot simpler. It's like some kind of sick reverse-Hunger Games thing where they choose a few of you to become partner just to keep hope alive, when in reality they really would prefer all of you to just work for them for free while they go boating in the Mediterranean.

Except being a partner is less boating and more 2 a.m. ragefits. I do not understand wanting biglaw partnership as an end goal.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri May 02, 2014 12:09 am

IAFG wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
Theopliske8711 wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:No one makes partner. Its harder than it was before when it was nearly impossible.


I'm just wondering what the point would be of moving to a different firm. What would they negotiate with you on?


The only people I've known who have lateraled from biglaw firm to another biglaw firm did so because they wanted to be closer to family or follow a job their spouse had gotten. I have no idea why someone would try to lateral to a different biglaw firm to make partner (lol). None of the biglaw firms want to make you partner. Just accept that fact and your life will be a lot simpler. It's like some kind of sick reverse-Hunger Games thing where they choose a few of you to become partner just to keep hope alive, when in reality they really would prefer all of you to just work for them for free while they go boating in the Mediterranean.

Except being a partner is less boating and more 2 a.m. ragefits. I do not understand wanting biglaw partnership as an end goal.


Yeah, but that doesn't mean they WANT to work that much. ...or maybe they do?

09042014
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby 09042014 » Fri May 02, 2014 12:13 am

My partner works 10-6 every single day.

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patogordo
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby patogordo » Fri May 02, 2014 12:59 am

Blindmelon wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:From what I hear, run, don't walk, from GENERAL litigation. Everyone is specializing.


Even specialized litigation - its just not great (unless IP Lit + STEM background). School and grades still mater for your next job although not as much as when trying to get the initial job. Connections are king for anything but going to another bigfirm. Some in-house jobs will say top ten schools only, but its usually BS.

really? i though patent lit exit options (besides other biglaw or w/e) were basically nonexistent

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IAFG
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby IAFG » Fri May 02, 2014 1:43 am

patogordo wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:From what I hear, run, don't walk, from GENERAL litigation. Everyone is specializing.


Even specialized litigation - its just not great (unless IP Lit + STEM background). School and grades still mater for your next job although not as much as when trying to get the initial job. Connections are king for anything but going to another bigfirm. Some in-house jobs will say top ten schools only, but its usually BS.

really? i though patent lit exit options (besides other biglaw or w/e) were basically nonexistent

you just exit into more lit. which doesn't have to be such a bad outcome. once you're actually good for something, there are actually decent gigs.

El Principe
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby El Principe » Fri May 02, 2014 4:53 am

As someone who's still, at the moment, interested in both transactional & litigation, I'm wondering to what extent is there even a possibility that one can do specialized litigation in big law as an associate?

I'm aware firms have different methodologies when it comes to assigning associates to practice areas and assigning cases/deals, but from your experience, how would a(n) summer/associate go about specializing? Do they split litigation associates into sub-specialty groups or is the pressure on you to to pick and choose what kind of cases you want to be staffed on? What if the firm just assigns cases without input from associates (if such a system exists) ?

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Blindmelon
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby Blindmelon » Fri May 02, 2014 8:44 am

El Principe wrote:As someone who's still, at the moment, interested in both transactional & litigation, I'm wondering to what extent is there even a possibility that one can do specialized litigation in big law as an associate?

I'm aware firms have different methodologies when it comes to assigning associates to practice areas and assigning cases/deals, but from your experience, how would a(n) summer/associate go about specializing? Do they split litigation associates into sub-specialty groups or is the pressure on you to to pick and choose what kind of cases you want to be staffed on? What if the firm just assigns cases without input from associates (if such a system exists) ?


As a summer no need to do any specializing. I let it be known that I wanted to do one specific type of cases and now I'm only a second year but very specialized in non-IP lit. Just let everyone know what you want to specialize in - find the few partners that work on that - and only do that. Most lit. associates are generalists, but some will immediately specialize in IP, Antitrust, or securities. It actually helps a lot in getting on good cases.

As for the IP lit thing, if you have a tech background (and only if you do), there are actual in-house jobs available. For other litigators? Not so much unless you're trying to go inhouse at MS, BOA, etc. (good luck!).

Humbert Humbert
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby Humbert Humbert » Fri May 02, 2014 9:34 am

oblig.lawl.ref wrote:Any transactional side attorneys have input on the subject?

Jchance
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby Jchance » Fri May 02, 2014 9:37 am

patogordo wrote:really? i though patent lit exit options (besides other biglaw or w/e) were basically nonexistent


I've seen some patent lit. ppl exit into patent pros. (even a 9th year patent lit), not sure how common this is. At least its another path to consider.

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IAFG
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby IAFG » Fri May 02, 2014 10:05 am

I really recommend asking people to walk you through their daily tasks on a typical, awesome and good day as a summer, in as many specialties as you can.

run26.2
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby run26.2 » Fri May 02, 2014 2:26 pm

IAFG wrote:I really recommend asking people to walk you through their daily tasks on a typical, awesome and good day as a summer, in as many specialties as you can.

This is generally a good idea. But SAs should keep in mind that they will need multiple opinions to get an accurate representation, even for a single practice group, because individual experiences will vary a lot. What you might do is try to determine 1-2 partners in the practice group you like and then ask associates that work for those partners.

Theopliske8711
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby Theopliske8711 » Fri May 02, 2014 2:36 pm

run26.2 wrote:
IAFG wrote:I really recommend asking people to walk you through their daily tasks on a typical, awesome and good day as a summer, in as many specialties as you can.

This is generally a good idea. But SAs should keep in mind that they will need multiple opinions to get an accurate representation, even for a single practice group, because individual experiences will vary a lot. What you might do is try to determine 1-2 partners in the practice group you like and then ask associates that work for those partners.


I feel like everything with biglaw gets to be such a gamble. Finding the right group with the right people and the right partner feels like it's inevitably going to come down to a roll of the die.

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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby sighsigh » Fri May 02, 2014 3:04 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: Most litigators go to other firms (either big or small law). After you get to be more senior and you don't make partner (like the vast majority of senior associates), no one wants you. That's when things get really dicey. I've spoken to several recruiters who say it's nearly impossible to place a 9th+ year commercial lit associate who was passed over for partnership.

Is this true only for biglaw firms or for all sized law firms?

Isn't the majority of the work done in law litigation, and most lawyers litigators? If the quoted is true, then where are all these litigators going if they can't make government or the tiny handful of in-house jobs, and get turned down for partner (which most do)? Do they all just drop out of the law?

Great thread, btw.

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rayiner
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby rayiner » Fri May 02, 2014 3:40 pm

sighsigh wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: Most litigators go to other firms (either big or small law). After you get to be more senior and you don't make partner (like the vast majority of senior associates), no one wants you. That's when things get really dicey. I've spoken to several recruiters who say it's nearly impossible to place a 9th+ year commercial lit associate who was passed over for partnership.

Is this true only for biglaw firms or for all sized law firms?

Isn't the majority of the work done in law litigation, and most lawyers litigators? If the quoted is true, then where are all these litigators going if they can't make government or the tiny handful of in-house jobs, and get turned down for partner (which most do)? Do they all just drop out of the law?

Great thread, btw.


Why do you think so many lawyers drop out to "write?"

Jchance
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby Jchance » Fri May 02, 2014 3:53 pm

You may want to consider this--"The Dark Side of Going In-House"
http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60637/ ... -In-House/

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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby sighsigh » Fri May 02, 2014 4:02 pm

rayiner wrote: Why do you think so many lawyers drop out to "write?"

I didn't know they did.

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patogordo
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby patogordo » Fri May 02, 2014 4:08 pm

Jchance wrote:You may want to consider this--"The Dark Side of Going In-House"
http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60637/ ... -In-House/

interesting article but what's the alternative? stay at your firm (or move to other firms) until you eventually get pushed out? doesn't sound like you're all that employable after that, either. i mean what are you supposed to do, stay and make partner? lol

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rayiner
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby rayiner » Fri May 02, 2014 4:31 pm

patogordo wrote:
Jchance wrote:You may want to consider this--"The Dark Side of Going In-House"
http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60637/ ... -In-House/

interesting article but what's the alternative? stay at your firm (or move to other firms) until you eventually get pushed out? doesn't sound like you're all that employable after that, either. i mean what are you supposed to do, stay and make partner? lol


It's all a byproduct of law being an oversaturated profession, at all levels. You 0L's think that once you make big law, you're golden, but in reality it's just the next step in what will be a weeding-out process that continues the rest of your career. Even if you make partner, you'll probably start out as non-equity, and constantly be looking over your shoulder because you'll be the first one off the boat when things get rough. And when you make equity you'll be looking over your shoulder because partner de-equitization is a thing now.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri May 02, 2014 6:03 pm

sighsigh wrote:
rayiner wrote: Why do you think so many lawyers drop out to "write?"

I didn't know they did.

Well, they do.

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Fri May 02, 2014 6:10 pm

rayiner wrote:
patogordo wrote:
Jchance wrote:You may want to consider this--"The Dark Side of Going In-House"
http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60637/ ... -In-House/

interesting article but what's the alternative? stay at your firm (or move to other firms) until you eventually get pushed out? doesn't sound like you're all that employable after that, either. i mean what are you supposed to do, stay and make partner? lol


It's all a byproduct of law being an oversaturated profession, at all levels. You 0L's think that once you make big law, you're golden, but in reality it's just the next step in what will be a weeding-out process that continues the rest of your career. Even if you make partner, you'll probably start out as non-equity, and constantly be looking over your shoulder because you'll be the first one off the boat when things get rough. And when you make equity you'll be looking over your shoulder because partner de-equitization is a thing now.


Yep.

The problem is that clients don't want to pay top dollar for the second best lawyer. They want to pay top dollar for the best lawyer, and if they can't get him/her, well, maybe they won't even try to sue (or maybe they'll just wait until the best lawyer says he/she has time to take on another matter). As a result, you get a lot of rainmakers "supervising" dozens of cases that they realistically don't know anything about, but in house counsel is fine with this because they only want top rainmakers to have their names at the top of case captions or on deals. It lets senior management know that they've hired "the best." If you're not one of these top rainmakers, you're easily replaceable for a firm (to varying degrees, obviously, depending on your level of experience, etc.).

And to counter any feeling of reassurance that you might have about thinking, "Gee, I just have to become a rainmaker and I'll be set!": The competition among these top rainmakers and among top rainmakers and up-and-comers is almost unimaginably competitive. 0Ls just can't comprehend it. I'm talking about political in-fighting, ass kissing, back biting, yelling, threatening, bloviating, and straight up LYING to get books of business at a level rarely rivaled in other industries. We're talking about big cases and deals worth tens of millions of dollars (or more) for firms. Of course the competition for this kind of work is going to be intense.

shock259
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby shock259 » Fri May 02, 2014 6:37 pm

Jchance wrote:You may want to consider this--"The Dark Side of Going In-House"
http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60637/ ... -In-House/


Interesting article. When was it written? Guessing in the early 2000's based on some of the content. Curious if anything has changed then. The difficulty of switching between in house positions is particularly depressing.

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FattyMcFatFat
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Re: BigLaw Exit Options: The Vale Part 2?

Postby FattyMcFatFat » Fri May 02, 2014 7:05 pm

shock259 wrote:
Jchance wrote:You may want to consider this--"The Dark Side of Going In-House"
http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60637/ ... -In-House/


Interesting article. When was it written? Guessing in the early 2000's based on some of the content. Curious if anything has changed then. The difficulty of switching between in house positions is particularly depressing.


The tone, use of anecdotes, and moderately vague analysis in this article make it seem like whoever wrote it doesn't really know what the fuck he is talking about.




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