Yale 1L Tells All Forum

[Cicero76]

Hi LochnerMonster and Cicero!

First, thanks so much for offering to answer questions!! I was just admitted Yale and am also trying to choose between HYS so your replies have been very helpful!

A couple of quick questions:

1) What are the living options like, and what would you estimate is the COL in New Haven? Is it close to the 17k listed on the website, or do you think it runs over/under?
2) On ATL, one alum commented that once the second semester starts, everyone becomes more gunnery. In your experience, is this true? Or does the collaborative atmosphere continue into the second semester and beyond?

Again, thanks a bunch! Your thoughtful answers are really making Yale more and more appealing as my final choice

1. Living options are pretty varied here. Some people live in apartments, others rent houses. I'm reluctant to give you an exact COL here, because I think it depends on how frugally you choose to live. Housing will run you anywhere from $450 - $1000 a month, depending on a) where you want to live and b) how picky you are about living with roommates. I live about a nine minute walk from the law school and my rent is on the low end of the spectrum. As for food, during the week you never need to buy lunch here (there are multiple free lunch lectures every day) and you often don't need to buy dinner either (for the same reason). Unless you bring a car, there are probably no transportation costs. So again, I think the COL can be very low here, but obviously that depends on you. If you insist on living alone in down town, and buying your own lunch/dinner every day, you'll be looking at a very different figure.

2. I haven't found my second semester to be more gunnery, but obviously the twin looming menaces of grades and clerkship applications make life less carefree. People are busier and have less free time, but seem just as friendly and collaborative as last semester -- at least, in my experience.

On 1), I think the COA estimate is a bit lower than what it actually costs first year. Moving is super expensive, and they don't account for all of those costs plus furnishing, security deposits, etc. Rent can also be pretty high downtown.
2) Gunna have to disagree with LM on this one. I think second semester, and in particular the journal process, have really brought out the gunner in many of my classmates. I had the misfortune of picking a couple gunner heavy classes though, so my view may be skewed by that. People are still friendly and collaborative and nice, because it's not a zero sum game here, but they're definitely still super strivey like law students everywhere. Also, by now people have stopped pretending that "grades never matter" and 2Ls are telling me that I better get at least one H if I want FIP to be a breeze and more Hs if I want a chance at clerkships and blahblahblah. The kool aid is watered down, but I wouldn't say it's gone entirely.

[LochnerMonster]

Hi LochnerMonster and Cicero!

First, thanks so much for offering to answer questions!! I was just admitted Yale and am also trying to choose between HYS so your replies have been very helpful!

A couple of quick questions:

1) What are the living options like, and what would you estimate is the COL in New Haven? Is it close to the 17k listed on the website, or do you think it runs over/under?
2) On ATL, one alum commented that once the second semester starts, everyone becomes more gunnery. In your experience, is this true? Or does the collaborative atmosphere continue into the second semester and beyond?

Again, thanks a bunch! Your thoughtful answers are really making Yale more and more appealing as my final choice

1. Living options are pretty varied here. Some people live in apartments, others rent houses. I'm reluctant to give you an exact COL here, because I think it depends on how frugally you choose to live. Housing will run you anywhere from $450 - $1000 a month, depending on a) where you want to live and b) how picky you are about living with roommates. I live about a nine minute walk from the law school and my rent is on the low end of the spectrum. As for food, during the week you never need to buy lunch here (there are multiple free lunch lectures every day) and you often don't need to buy dinner either (for the same reason). Unless you bring a car, there are probably no transportation costs. So again, I think the COL can be very low here, but obviously that depends on you. If you insist on living alone in down town, and buying your own lunch/dinner every day, you'll be looking at a very different figure.

2. I haven't found my second semester to be more gunnery, but obviously the twin looming menaces of grades and clerkship applications make life less carefree. People are busier and have less free time, but seem just as friendly and collaborative as last semester -- at least, in my experience.

On 1), I think the COA estimate is a bit lower than what it actually costs first year. Moving is super expensive, and they don't account for all of those costs plus furnishing, security deposits, etc. Rent can also be pretty high downtown.
2) Gunna have to disagree with LM on this one. I think second semester, and in particular the journal process, have really brought out the gunner in many of my classmates. I had the misfortune of picking a couple gunner heavy classes though, so my view may be skewed by that. People are still friendly and collaborative and nice, because it's not a zero sum game here, but they're definitely still super strivey like law students everywhere. Also, by now people have stopped pretending that "grades never matter" and 2Ls are telling me that I better get at least one H if I want FIP to be a breeze and more Hs if I want a chance at clerkships and blahblahblah. The kool aid is watered down, but I wouldn't say it's gone entirely.

That's fair. I think our disagreement is mostly semantic, i.e. I define "gunner" as a person who embodies certain extreme competitive behaviors.

[Elston Gunn]

I'm hoping someone else offers their view on this too, but:

Since by OCI (or whatever it's called), YLS will have only 1 semester of grades, and even then the grades don't really distinguish anyone besides the top 10% who collects all the HPs, doesn't this just mean that getting a job is more reliant on good interviewing skills @ YLS than at anywhere else?

I'm a K-JD so it's not like I've survived McKinsey's 50-round interview. Not a master interviewer.
Would I be better served distinguishing myself via HLS's abundantly clear and unambiguous grading system?

or do interviewers give YLS kids a "pass" on this too?

YLS either makes it easier for me because it can get me to a callback that I'd need 6Hs @ HLS to get but then it's all up to my interviewing skills, or it may make it harder because then it's all up to my interviewing skills--once YLS takes me to the callback stage, I'm on my own.

But here's the thing: It's really, really easy to get a law firm job out of Yale. Because there are so few Yalies, even people with straight P's can get an SA at a V10 or V15 at the very worst. Seriously. If you take a look at the Harvard OCI treads, this is simply not the case there. So yes, interviewing skills matter "more" here relative to other schools. But they don't matter much.

I am a K-JD who has not gone through any McKinsey-type interviews before, and I have talked with many 2L and 3L K-JD's. None of them had any trouble whatsoever getting jobs at the very best firms, and they didn't feel they need to be interview ninjas to get Big Law.

2L cosigns this.

The lack of grades insulates you from being at the bottom of the class, but it's not really the grading system that makes things easy. It's just that Yale grads are in very high demand from firms.

[Howl]

Hi LochnerMonster and Cicero!

First, thanks so much for offering to answer questions!! I was just admitted Yale and am also trying to choose between HYS so your replies have been very helpful!

A couple of quick questions:

1) What are the living options like, and what would you estimate is the COL in New Haven? Is it close to the 17k listed on the website, or do you think it runs over/under?
2) On ATL, one alum commented that once the second semester starts, everyone becomes more gunnery. In your experience, is this true? Or does the collaborative atmosphere continue into the second semester and beyond?

Again, thanks a bunch! Your thoughtful answers are really making Yale more and more appealing as my final choice

1. Living options are pretty varied here. Some people live in apartments, others rent houses. I'm reluctant to give you an exact COL here, because I think it depends on how frugally you choose to live. Housing will run you anywhere from $450 - $1000 a month, depending on a) where you want to live and b) how picky you are about living with roommates. I live about a nine minute walk from the law school and my rent is on the low end of the spectrum. As for food, during the week you never need to buy lunch here (there are multiple free lunch lectures every day) and you often don't need to buy dinner either (for the same reason). Unless you bring a car, there are probably no transportation costs. So again, I think the COL can be very low here, but obviously that depends on you. If you insist on living alone in down town, and buying your own lunch/dinner every day, you'll be looking at a very different figure.

2. I haven't found my second semester to be more gunnery, but obviously the twin looming menaces of grades and clerkship applications make life less carefree. People are busier and have less free time, but seem just as friendly and collaborative as last semester -- at least, in my experience.

On 1), I think the COA estimate is a bit lower than what it actually costs first year. Moving is super expensive, and they don't account for all of those costs plus furnishing, security deposits, etc. Rent can also be pretty high downtown.
2) Gunna have to disagree with LM on this one. I think second semester, and in particular the journal process, have really brought out the gunner in many of my classmates. I had the misfortune of picking a couple gunner heavy classes though, so my view may be skewed by that. People are still friendly and collaborative and nice, because it's not a zero sum game here, but they're definitely still super strivey like law students everywhere. Also, by now people have stopped pretending that "grades never matter" and 2Ls are telling me that I better get at least one H if I want FIP to be a breeze and more Hs if I want a chance at clerkships and blahblahblah. The kool aid is watered down, but I wouldn't say it's gone entirely.

That's fair. I think our disagreement is mostly semantic, i.e. I define "gunner" as a person who embodies certain extreme competitive behaviors.

Wow that was fast. Thanks so much for the detailed and honest replies! It's nice to know what I'm about to get into.

Another question - and not quite sure if I should be asking 2Ls about this instead of 1Ls - I heard that there has been some anger and bitterness over some people not getting clinics. What's the deal with that? Are there like some super desirable clinics that everyone tries to get in? Or if one has a niche, is it relatively easy to get a clinic spot? Also, don't people take different clinics each semester, anyways?

[LochnerMonster]

[

Another question - and not quite sure if I should be asking 2Ls about this instead of 1Ls - I heard that there has been some anger and bitterness over some people not getting clinics. What's the deal with that? Are there like some super desirable clinics that everyone tries to get in? Or if one has a niche, is it relatively easy to get a clinic spot? Also, don't people take different clinics each semester, anyways?

Yes, there was a bit of kerfuffle over clinics this year, but I personally think it was wildly overblown -- the sort of issue that students anywhere else wish they had.

Here are the two most salient statistics from this semester:

For all students, 87% (332/379) who applied were accepted into a clinic.

For first-year students only, 74% (92/125) who applied were accepted into a clinic.

Just to break down the rejection numbers a little further: only 33 first year students and 14 (combined) second and third year students did not get into a clinic. I'd say those numbers are minuscule, especially when you consider that no other law school even allows 1L's to enter clinics.

On top of this, Yale is the only law school (as far as I know) that doesn't place a cap on how many clinics you can take and on how many semesters you can spend in a clinic.

The bottom line: 3/4 of 1L's who want clinics get a clinic. Pretty much all of the 2L's and 3L's get a clinic.

So, what was the fuss about? Some 1L's believed the school had advertised during ASW that *every* 1L can take a clinic in their spring semester. Obviously it's disappointing to not get into a course you want, but I think some people need to get a little bit of perspective.

[bhs12]

I'm currently struggling to decide between Yale and Stanford. My interests are in constitutional and criminal law, and their intersection with political/legal philosophy. I aspire to a career in appellate litigation and potentially, academia.

This weekend I went to Stanford's ASW, and what impressed me most was the faculty's accessibility-- literal and figurative. I also appreciated SLS' casual and open academic culture.

With this in mind, do any of you have advice/insight that might be helpful in making this difficult (but admittedly awesome) decision?

eta: thanks

[Instinctive]

Have any of you heard/encountered any issues with joint degree students?

(As I think most of the Yalies on here know from how much help they've given me thus far in my decision, I'm choosing Yale JD/MBA or Ruby w/ Doctoroff)

[jbagelboy]

I'm currently struggling to decide between Yale and Stanford. My interests are in constitutional and criminal law, and their intersection with political/legal philosophy. I aspire to a career in appellate litigation and potentially, academia.

This weekend I went to Stanford's ASW, and what impressed me most was the faculty's accessibility-- literal and figurative. I also appreciated SLS' casual and open academic culture.

With this in mind, do any of you have advice/insight that might be helpful in making this difficult (but admittedly awesome) decision?

eta: thanks

So ASW's are great, but given your "potential" interests in academia, you may want to check out this, this, and especially this chart.

Academia is basically Yale, then a gap, then Harvard, then everyone else. Adjusting for size, Stanford tends to fall somewhere as a distant fourth with Chicago and NYU, but its really a wash. SLS is incredible for nearly any career, but it can't touch Yale in producing the next rank and file of legal academia.

disclaimer: not a yale student, just an impartial observer.

[LochnerMonster]

I'm currently struggling to decide between Yale and Stanford. My interests are in constitutional and criminal law, and their intersection with political/legal philosophy. I aspire to a career in appellate litigation and potentially, academia.

This weekend I went to Stanford's ASW, and what impressed me most was the faculty's accessibility-- literal and figurative. I also appreciated SLS' casual and open academic culture.

With this in mind, do any of you have advice/insight that might be helpful in making this difficult (but admittedly awesome) decision?

eta: thanks

So ASW's are great, but given your "potential" interests in academia, you may want to check out this, this, and especially this chart.

Academia is basically Yale, then a gap, then Harvard, then everyone else. Adjusting for size, Stanford tends to fall somewhere as a distant fourth with Chicago and NYU, but its really a wash. SLS is incredible for nearly any career, but it can't touch Yale in producing the next rank and file of legal academia.

disclaimer: not a yale student, just an impartial observer.

There are many ways to analyze the Yale v. Stanford debate, but I will focus on culture and career placement because that's how you framed your question.

Culture: Yale and Stanford feature similar academic cultures and similarly accessible faculty. The main difference between the two, in my mind, really comes down to East Coast v. West Coast or (as I like to think of it) hustle vs. chill. Yale is casual and low stress, but the people here are not "chill" -- they are driven go-getters who often live with a sense of urgency. Stanford, on the other hand, is chill. There's a certain zen feeling to the place, manifested in its sprawling campus.

I recognize that I'm making broad generalizations, but I don't think there's much other choice when talking about "culture." Neither culture is objectively better than the other. I strongly prefer hustle, but many others prefer chill.

When it comes to faculty in particular, here is how a Stanford Law professor who attended Yale Law School described the difference. She said that Stanford professors are generally more invested in pedagogy, but Yale professors are generally more invested in individualized scholarly mentorship. I can't verify the truth of this claim, but it has the ring of truth to it. (Although there are certainly professors at Yale invested in pedagogy.)

Employment: If you're interested in academia, Yale definitely has the edge. I remember that Stanford tried to argue at ASW that Yale only places better in academia because academic types self select there, but I think Yale's numbers are too strong for this to be the case.

You should take a look at jbagelboy's links, and also check out Brian Leiter's data: http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml

Notice the raw numbers, the per capita numbers, and the quality of placement (i.e. among the T14). I've also discussed Yale's placement record with a number of outside sources who are experts on legal academia placement (PM me if you're curious), and their impression was that there is actually an advantage in academia for Yale.

Also, based on your interest in appellate litigation and academia, I assume you care about clerkships. Stanford's clerkship placement is pretty good, but Yale's is even stronger. I can vouch for the fact that Yale students are not just getting lots of district court clerkships -- they land many of the best court of appeals clerkships. And for Supreme Court clerkships, Yale dominates. For the current term (2013), Yale had 10 Supreme Court clerks (matching Harvard, with three times as many students) to Stanford's 3. Obviously, you shouldn't base your decision on Supreme Court clerkship placement, but I think it gives a sense of the power of Yale's brand.

Anyways, that should give you plenty to mull over.

[LochnerMonster]

Have any of you heard/encountered any issues with joint degree students?

(As I think most of the Yalies on here know from how much help they've given me thus far in my decision, I'm choosing Yale JD/MBA or Ruby w/ Doctoroff)

No, I haven't heard of any issues. It's common for students to do joint degrees. Yale is particularly invested in the JD/MBA program.

[gottago]

edit

[LochnerMonster]

So Yale helps you get your first job, but is that afterward you're on your own?

For example, if I get pushed out of biglaw at year 5, will a YLS degree ensure that I'm not searching for work endlessly, or is it "get in line, buddy"?

Just trying to figure out what a "lifetime of job security" means.

As the title of this thread makes explicit, I am a 1L and thus cannot comment with authority on what happens 5, 10, etc. years after graduation.

I have found that alumni uniformly enjoyed their time at Yale, and have in many instances taken the time to meet with me and even offer substantial help with particular career paths. The most common thing I hear alumni tell me is to meet as many classmates as possible, because people here go on to fantastic careers. So, the alumni network seems strong to me, from my admittedly limited vantage point.

I don't think any degree can ensure a "lifetime of job security." But I imagine that graduates of Yale Law School have it at least as good as graduates of any other law school -- and probably even have it better.

[Kimikho]

Another KJD question:

did you experience burnout? did not having grades the first semester help you with that?

[Dafaq]

Are you a member of the Yale Club? Most of the Ivies have one in NYC (location makes sense for Columbia, not sure about Yale, Harvard, Penn and Cornell). Benefits of being a member are...?

[LochnerMonster]

Are you a member of the Yale Club? Most of the Ivies have one in NYC (location makes sense for Columbia, not sure about Yale, Harvard, Penn and Cornell). Benefits of being a member are...?

No. I doubt many (if any) current students or recent alumni students are members. I don't get what the benefits are either. Maybe if you're old, have lots of money, and need an excuse to hang out with other rich/smart/old people?

[Instinctive]

How important do yall feel it is to live in East Rock or the Towers? It seems a ton of 1Ls live there.

Are there any amazing classes/professors you recommend taking purely for who they are, as opposed to having any interest in the topic? Or are pretty much all the professors amazing so take what you want and just soak it all in?

Anything in particular to watch out for as a 1L because it might bite you in the ass later? Or because you don't want to miss out on it?

Things that matter personally:
Do any of you know about pickup basketball culture at the gym?
Do people date within YLS or is that taboo? (speaking with law students at the school where I am in UG it seems a bit taboo, but the SOM seems to have it happen quite often)

Thanks!!!

[Elston Gunn]

How important do yall feel it is to live in East Rock or the Towers? It seems a ton of 1Ls live there.

Not important at all IMO. You're right that tons live in one of those two places, and you won't regret if you do, but you won't feel isolated or anything if you live in Wooster Square or on Dwight, or wherever else.

Are there any amazing classes/professors you recommend taking purely for who they are, as opposed to having any interest in the topic? Or are pretty much all the professors amazing so take what you want and just soak it all in?

I'm a 2L, and I honestly haven't really had this experience yet, but it's probably just because I'm a bad law student that doesn't actually like law classes. My favorite professor was a visitor that won't be there next year. I've like other professors in class, but none so much that I feel like you *have* to take their class. Ellickson is the one that I'm going to make sure I take and sounds amazing regardless of particular interest (though makes you work for it).

Anything in particular to watch out for as a 1L because it might bite you in the ass later? Or because you don't want to miss out on it?

I'm not sure what you're looking for here. From a career perspective, make sure to know reasonably well at least one, ideally two of your first semester professors. That's more valuable to you than doing any class work at all.

Things that matter personally:
Do any of you know about pickup basketball culture at the gym?

Don't have personal experience, but I think it's relatively prevalent. There's also definitely a weekly LS basketball game.

Do people date within YLS or is that taboo? (speaking with law students at the school where I am in UG it seems a bit taboo, but the SOM seems to have it happen quite often)

Thanks!!!

It's not taboo at all. It happens all the time.

[lizaregina]

Are there any amazing classes/professors you recommend taking purely for who they are, as opposed to having any interest in the topic? Or are pretty much all the professors amazing so take what you want and just soak it all in?

There are some people who take certain classes because the professors are known to give an extremely high % of Hs, even if the topic has NOTHING to do with what they are interested it. Crim is a class in particular that people take in certain semesters because they want a certain teaching style: Whitman (do no crim), Kahan (crazy crim), Rubenfeld (straight black letter), Yaffe (philosophical crim), etc.

Anything in particular to watch out for as a 1L because it might bite you in the ass later? Or because you don't want to miss out on it?

The #1 piece of advice I give is: do not be an asshole. It might work well for your grades but your classmates will HATE you and that has long-term negative implications. It's a very small school so people will know who you are.

Things that matter personally:
Do any of you know about pickup basketball culture at the gym?

There is an entire listserve dedicated to pick-up.

Do people date within YLS or is that taboo? (speaking with law students at the school where I am in UG it seems a bit taboo, but the SOM seems to have it happen quite often)

Thanks!!!

It's not taboo at all. It happens all the time.[/quote]
But be careful. See small school comment. People will know if you're an asshole or treated someone poorly.

[zlrup]

Is it necessary to have a car while in YLS?

[notedgarfigaro]

Are you a member of the Yale Club? Most of the Ivies have one in NYC (location makes sense for Columbia, not sure about Yale, Harvard, Penn and Cornell). Benefits of being a member are...?

No. I doubt many (if any) current students or recent alumni students are members. I don't get what the benefits are either. Maybe if you're old, have lots of money, and need an excuse to hang out with other rich/smart/old people?

Benefits are cheap, extremely convenient hotel rooms for out of towners, a pretty decent hangout for in towners, and a decent gym. Also I think recent alumni get a discount. It's a luxury for sure, but it's pretty baller.

[NapoleonXV]

Is it necessary to have a car while in YLS?

Nope. Pretty much everything is within walking distance, and you have got free safe ride shuttles from 6 pm to 6 am every day (basically free taxi!)

[Elston Gunn]

Is it necessary to have a car while in YLS?

Nope. Pretty much everything is within walking distance, and you have got free safe ride shuttles from 6 pm to 6 am every day (basically free taxi!)

Nice to have though. I wouldn't sell my car if I had one, but I wouldn't buy one either.

[RCSOB657]

I am curious, what is the lowest LSAT a student has been admitted with in your class?

[Cicero76]

I am curious, what is the lowest LSAT a student has been admitted with in your class?

152. But I wouldn't count on that meaning something.

[Longtimecoming19]

I am curious, what is the lowest LSAT a student has been admitted with in your class?

152. But I wouldn't count on that meaning something.

It means that the kid either cured cancer or has a parent in the U.S. Senate. Probably both.