Harvard Student(s) Answering Your Questions Forum

[lawlorbust]

There are surely good reasons to go to Chicago over HLS — scholarship money, culture fit, geographical preference, etc. However, I definitely strongly dispute the silly stereotypes mentioned above. I don't know a single person at HLS that I would call a competitive sociopath (or even close), and most professors are very accessible. Just go to office hours or stick around after class and they're happy to talk. It was easy to get clerkship rec letters as well. (Maybe a few profs are more crusty or stand-offish than others, but show me a law school where every single professor is a bubbly extrovert). I also don't think there are meaningful differences in "community" between law schools — if the concern with HLS is that there are so many students, I point out that you spend a ton of time 1L year with your ~75 person section, and there are a huge amount of extracurriculars to get involved in if you want other community options.

I'd +1 this. UChi's a great school and (I'm sure) there are good reasons to go there over HLS. But I find it highly amusing that most of the reasons the poster named -- community, campus, sociopathy of student body, and access to professors -- are reasons I'd think to pick HLS instead. (And for the first three, more because of UChi's deficiencies than HLS's actual strengths.)

[Nonconsecutive]

Having trouble registering for a new account on hls dope. Any solutions?

Also check out Too Dope.

[jt716]

Hi, I'm a 0L deciding between Harvard and NYU. I looked through this thread and no one's asked about PI in a long time-- what's the PI culture like at Harvard? I'm specifically thinking about clerkships, impact litigation (criminal justice reform), or USAO/DA in NYC. Does anyone have any insight into whether Harvard would give me a comparative advantage in those paths?

[cantorb]

Has anyone here taken Burling's Advanced Legal Writing class?

[nothingtosee]

Hi, I'm a 0L deciding between Harvard and NYU. I looked through this thread and no one's asked about PI in a long time-- what's the PI culture like at Harvard? I'm specifically thinking about clerkships, impact litigation (criminal justice reform), or USAO/DA in NYC. Does anyone have any insight into whether Harvard would give me a comparative advantage in those paths?

Are you interested in working for the public interest, or getting a prestigious law job that's not at a big firm?

[jt716]

Hi, I'm a 0L deciding between Harvard and NYU. I looked through this thread and no one's asked about PI in a long time-- what's the PI culture like at Harvard? I'm specifically thinking about clerkships, impact litigation (criminal justice reform), or USAO/DA in NYC. Does anyone have any insight into whether Harvard would give me a comparative advantage in those paths?

Are you interested in working for the public interest, or getting a prestigious law job that's not at a big firm?

I want to work for the public interest. I'm interested in criminal/constitutional law/criminal justice reform. I've worked for the DA in NYC in the past so I have ties there, and I like the culture and the vertical prosecution model, which is why I expressed a preference. I'm more concerned about doing work that matters to me (though not interested in PD for personal reasons). But I would like to do a clerkship if at all possible.

[nothingtosee]

There are a handful of people who go straight clerkship/ausa. There aren't very many prosecutors who start at a da, though there's a good amount of people who do public defenders offices. A big thing to consider is your financial situation - if you're going into debt, your ability to do anything besides a firm will be severely pressured. It's not impossible, but lots of people who want to ausa coming in look at $250,000+ debt and decide to start at a firm.

[Joscellin]

There are a handful of people who go straight clerkship/ausa. There aren't very many prosecutors who start at a da, though there's a good amount of people who do public defenders offices. A big thing to consider is your financial situation - if you're going into debt, your ability to do anything besides a firm will be severely pressured. It's not impossible, but lots of people who want to ausa coming in look at $250,000+ debt and decide to start at a firm.

Doesn't LIPP change the calculus on this quite a bit?

[polareagle]

There are a handful of people who go straight clerkship/ausa. There aren't very many prosecutors who start at a da, though there's a good amount of people who do public defenders offices. A big thing to consider is your financial situation - if you're going into debt, your ability to do anything besides a firm will be severely pressured. It's not impossible, but lots of people who want to ausa coming in look at $250,000+ debt and decide to start at a firm.

Just to push back on this a bit. It's nearly impossible to become an AUSA directly out of law school; it is impossible in the competitive districts many HLS students want to work in.* The same is true from a clerkship that you do early on, but the calculus changes if you work for a couple/few years, then clerk, then try for AUSA. For places like SDNY, biglaw is generally a requirement for a job at the office. (But I suppose this could change with the new U.S. Attorney there.)

HLS sends a few people each year directly to prosecutors offices. Anecdotally, in my year three or four people went to the various NYC DAs. And I believe we sent somebody to the Seattle DA as well.

As far as financing, if you're set on PI, then you shouldn't ignore debt, but it also shouldn't be a massive concern--you'll have it paid off in 10 years through LIPP. (There is a LIPP calculator online that will give you numbers, so you can plug in all your info and decide if that life works for you.)

For some advice on the actual school, there's a prosecution clinic that you can do as a 3L that involves you actually standing up in court and prosecuting relatively low level crimes in Massachusetts state court. There's also a USAO clinic where you spend a semester in the Boston USAO (open to 2Ls and 3Ls, but it's application only). Finally, there's a state AG clinic that will place you in one of the Massachusetts state AG divisions for a semester. So there's plenty of opportunity to get experience of this sort here.

I know very little about NYU, so I'm not in a position to comment on their offerings, but if you, say, wanted to work for one of the NYC DAs, then the opportunity to extern there during the semester might be really valuable.

Best of luck!

*DC's USAO is a bit of an oddball because they prosecute local crimes. It may be possible to get this straight out or early on, but you're effectively a local DA.

[Nonconsecutive]

Finally, there's a state AG clinic that will place you in one of the Massachusetts state AG divisions for a semester. So there's plenty of opportunity to get experience of this sort here.

Just to add an extra note to this: It's also possible to do this clinic over J-Term and go to a different state if there is a particular market you are interested in (you can pretty much try to go anywhere, but some states are more difficult than others for a variety of reasons).

[dmp1323]

Hi everyone - I'm currently a 1L at UChi and I'm in Ramseyer's Japanese Law class. Is there any chance anyone can send me an outline from his class at HLS? I found one on hlsdope, but obviously since I don't have an HLS email I can't access it. Please PM me if you can help me out! Thank you!

[preppingaway]

Just pm'd !

[Pneumonia]

Has anyone here taken Burling's Advanced Legal Writing class?

I took it. I think a better title would be "Fundamentals of Professional Writing" or something similar. And by no means do I mean that in a negative way. It was a great class. Since I don't recall seeing anyone on here describe the class, I'll give my two cents.

Let me start with what the class isn't. It isn't about logic, legal analysis, or drawing conclusions. It is not an extension of nor does it build on 1L LRW. If anything, I Burling's class would be most helpful prior to LRW. The reason is that his class is about writing. There are weekly assignments, but in general they take very little time. Each assignment's content is substantively legal, but the course isn't about substantive arguments. It's about writing.

Burling could teach the same course using any number of "topics"—legal or otherwise. Week to week you are focused on a certain writing skill. I won't detail those skills here for fear that doing so would paint an overly simplistic picture of the course (but think of things like "word choice" and "knowing one's audience"). I learned a ton in his class. He's a very careful editor, and he gives thoughtful, individualized comments on each week's piece. The group discusses each assignment during the weekly meetings. Usually, Burling presents an anonymized "worst of" list (of sentences, word choices, structures, etc.) and the class talks about how the mistakes in the list could be corrected or avoided. That part is fun.

For KJDs or anyone who else who's never had to submit substantive written work product to a superior, it's a great course. On the other hand, those with significant post grad academic writing experience would likely find the course duplicative (although I still think they'd enjoy it). For everyone in between, I think the class is worth taking if you have the time.

ETA – I want to reiterate that this class is nothing like LRW. It's 100% possible to get an H or two in LRW while being a substandard writer. It's also possible to get a P in LRW because you were unable to clearly communicate what would otherwise have been H-worthy arguments.

[Joscellin]

Has anyone here taken Burling's Advanced Legal Writing class?

I took it. I think a better title would be "Fundamentals of Professional Writing" or something similar. And by no means do I mean that in a negative way. It was a great class. Since I don't recall seeing anyone on here describe the class, I'll give my two cents.

Let me start with what the class isn't. It isn't about logic, legal analysis, or drawing conclusions. It is not an extension of nor does it build on 1L LRW. If anything, I Burling's class would be most helpful prior to LRW. The reason is that his class is about writing. There are weekly assignments, but in general they take very little time. Each assignment's content is substantively legal, but the course isn't about substantive arguments. It's about writing.

Burling could teach the same course using any number of "topics"—legal or otherwise. Week to week you are focused on a certain writing skill. I won't detail those skills here for fear that doing so would paint an overly simplistic picture of the course (but think of things like "word choice" and "knowing one's audience"). I learned a ton in his class. He's a very careful editor, and he gives thoughtful, individualized comments on each week's piece. The group discusses each assignment during the weekly meetings. Usually, Burling presents an anonymized "worst of" list (of sentences, word choices, structures, etc.) and the class talks about how the mistakes in the list could be corrected or avoided. That part is fun.

For KJDs or anyone who else who's never had to submit substantive written work product to a superior, it's a great course. On the other hand, those with significant post grad academic writing experience would likely find the course duplicative (although I still think they'd enjoy it). For everyone in between, I think the class is worth taking if you have the time.

ETA – I want to reiterate that this class is nothing like LRW. It's 100% possible to get an H or two in LRW while being a substandard writer. It's also possible to get a P in LRW because you were unable to clearly communicate what would otherwise have been H-worthy arguments.

Do you have any knowledge as to where this would need to be Pref'd to get in? It's a small section and I imagine it's pretty popular?

[Pneumonia]

Do you have any knowledge as to where this would need to be Pref'd to get in? It's a small section and I imagine it's pretty popular?

I had it as my number one bid, but I don't think that's always necessary. For reference, I think there are only 12–14 seats in a given iteration.

[taxman14]

Would you recommend reading anything the summer before 1L ? Did you and would you if you could go back?

[tomwatts]

Would you recommend reading anything the summer before 1L ? Did you and would you if you could go back?

I didn't. The conventional wisdom here is not to read much of anything. I would've appreciate knowing a little more about the court system, what happens during 1L, and the range of jobs that lawyers do. I came in knowing literally zero, so I was pretty confused at first about what the heck we were doing in the first semester, and I was waaaayyy behind the curve in terms of applying for jobs. (Meeting with OCS/OPIA earlier also probably would've helped, but it's hard when you know literally nothing.)

All this stuff evens out eventually, but my first semester would've been a bit less stressful if I had a little more understanding of the bigger picture.

[lawstud24]

Would you recommend reading anything the summer before 1L ? Did you and would you if you could go back?

I recommend reading Getting to Maybe for exams, as well as The Happy Lawyer if you're curious about managing quality of life and mental health in the legal profession. You can also spend a lot of time reading for pleasure if you like, just to prepare yourself for the many hours of reading every day. Definitely no need to read any textbooks or cases though. I also recommend fixing up your resume and cover letter to make applying to jobs more efficient.

[taxman14]

Would you recommend reading anything the summer before 1L ? Did you and would you if you could go back?

I didn't. The conventional wisdom here is not to read much of anything. I would've appreciate knowing a little more about the court system, what happens during 1L, and the range of jobs that lawyers do. I came in knowing literally zero, so I was pretty confused at first about what the heck we were doing in the first semester, and I was waaaayyy behind the curve in terms of applying for jobs. (Meeting with OCS/OPIA earlier also probably would've helped, but it's hard when you know literally nothing.)

All this stuff evens out eventually, but my first semester would've been a bit less stressful if I had a little more understanding of the bigger picture.

Wow all great points - do you have any suggestions about how I could get a better understanding of that bigger picture? Thanks!

[despina]

There are a handful of people who go straight clerkship/ausa. There aren't very many prosecutors who start at a da, though there's a good amount of people who do public defenders offices. A big thing to consider is your financial situation - if you're going into debt, your ability to do anything besides a firm will be severely pressured. It's not impossible, but lots of people who want to ausa coming in look at $250,000+ debt and decide to start at a firm.

As far as financing, if you're set on PI, then you shouldn't ignore debt, but it also shouldn't be a massive concern--you'll have it paid off in 10 years through LIPP. (There is a LIPP calculator online that will give you numbers, so you can plug in all your info and decide if that life works for you.)

I agree that you really need to have a realistic picture of how LIPP will work for you. I'd emphasize that the higher your salary, the less of a great deal LIPP is. Federal government salaries put you in the LIPP frustration zone pretty fast -- you're earning a comfortable salary but paying a substantial portion of it to your loans, which is especially tough if you're in a high cost of living area. Take a look at the GS and think through where you'd be at year 1, year 5 etc. You'll start out over $53k, where $0.40 of every extra dollar goes to your loans. And once you're over $125k, $0.80 of every extra dollar goes to your loans.

Also I'm sure I've said this elsewhere in the thread, but when comparing LIPP vs financial aid at another school, you also need to think through possible scenarios beyond just salary. What happens when you marry someone with a higher income (LIPP punishes you) or lower income (LIPP doesn't adjust to help you support that person)? Might you need/want to take time off to care for kids or aging relatives? Do you have a lot of undergrad debt that won't be covered? Etc. For many of these scenarios LIPP imperfect but still the best program out there -- but you want to really have a realistic picture before you jump in rather than just relying on HLS's generalized assertion that "LIPP means you can take any job you want and not worry about your loans!"

[tomwatts]

Wow all great points - do you have any suggestions about how I could get a better understanding of that bigger picture? Thanks!

I wish I did. Maybe others here have some thoughts? I mean, Getting to Maybe is a classic but isn't exactly what I had in mind. I've seen people link Wikipedia pages, like the page on "common law" for example, although it's not exactly an introduction in the way that I would want. And I've never seen any remotely comprehensive, honest, and clear-to-the-novice description of what different kinds of lawyers actually do.

[cantorb]

Has anyone here taken Burling's Advanced Legal Writing class?

I took it. I think a better title would be "Fundamentals of Professional Writing" or something similar. And by no means do I mean that in a negative way. It was a great class. Since I don't recall seeing anyone on here describe the class, I'll give my two cents.

Let me start with what the class isn't. It isn't about logic, legal analysis, or drawing conclusions. It is not an extension of nor does it build on 1L LRW. If anything, I Burling's class would be most helpful prior to LRW. The reason is that his class is about writing. There are weekly assignments, but in general they take very little time. Each assignment's content is substantively legal, but the course isn't about substantive arguments. It's about writing.

Burling could teach the same course using any number of "topics"—legal or otherwise. Week to week you are focused on a certain writing skill. I won't detail those skills here for fear that doing so would paint an overly simplistic picture of the course (but think of things like "word choice" and "knowing one's audience"). I learned a ton in his class. He's a very careful editor, and he gives thoughtful, individualized comments on each week's piece. The group discusses each assignment during the weekly meetings. Usually, Burling presents an anonymized "worst of" list (of sentences, word choices, structures, etc.) and the class talks about how the mistakes in the list could be corrected or avoided. That part is fun.

For KJDs or anyone who else who's never had to submit substantive written work product to a superior, it's a great course. On the other hand, those with significant post grad academic writing experience would likely find the course duplicative (although I still think they'd enjoy it). For everyone in between, I think the class is worth taking if you have the time.

ETA – I want to reiterate that this class is nothing like LRW. It's 100% possible to get an H or two in LRW while being a substandard writer. It's also possible to get a P in LRW because you were unable to clearly communicate what would otherwise have been H-worthy arguments.

Thanks for the detailed response!

One follow-up q: What is the total workload like - including writing assignments, class prep, the one-on-one meetings, and anything else - as compared to a standard 3-credit course?

[CenterFringe]

Wow all great points - do you have any suggestions about how I could get a better understanding of that bigger picture? Thanks!

I wish I did. Maybe others here have some thoughts? I mean, Getting to Maybe is a classic but isn't exactly what I had in mind. I've seen people link Wikipedia pages, like the page on "common law" for example, although it's not exactly an introduction in the way that I would want. And I've never seen any remotely comprehensive, honest, and clear-to-the-novice description of what different kinds of lawyers actually do.

I think the E&E for civ pro was really helpful for understanding what "suing" someone mean/looks like. No idea if it'll help me 1L, but it was an easy read, I feel like I actually have a clue how district courts, appellate courts, state courts operate. For "big picture" I think it was great, and I was glad I read it, even if I wasn't going to law school. I also read a Contracts Hornbook, without getting bogged down in specific cases or trying to "learn" it. That also went a long way toward opening my eyes to how things work.
Getting to Maybe was a quick, great read. I also read the book they sent me "Environmental Law" and found that I was able to comprehend it so much better because I'd read the Civ Pro E&E. This is all stuff I'm interested in. I doubt I'll read Crim Pro, for example, because I don't give a shit. But I'll probably read the property E&E, because, again, I find it interesting and it helps me wrap my head around what's going on.

[o0o0o0o]

There are a handful of people who go straight clerkship/ausa. There aren't very many prosecutors who start at a da, though there's a good amount of people who do public defenders offices. A big thing to consider is your financial situation - if you're going into debt, your ability to do anything besides a firm will be severely pressured. It's not impossible, but lots of people who want to ausa coming in look at $250,000+ debt and decide to start at a firm.

As far as financing, if you're set on PI, then you shouldn't ignore debt, but it also shouldn't be a massive concern--you'll have it paid off in 10 years through LIPP. (There is a LIPP calculator online that will give you numbers, so you can plug in all your info and decide if that life works for you.)

I agree that you really need to have a realistic picture of how LIPP will work for you. I'd emphasize that the higher your salary, the less of a great deal LIPP is. Federal government salaries put you in the LIPP frustration zone pretty fast -- you're earning a comfortable salary but paying a substantial portion of it to your loans, which is especially tough if you're in a high cost of living area. Take a look at the GS and think through where you'd be at year 1, year 5 etc. You'll start out over $53k, where $0.40 of every extra dollar goes to your loans. And once you're over $125k, $0.80 of every extra dollar goes to your loans.

Also I'm sure I've said this elsewhere in the thread, but when comparing LIPP vs financial aid at another school, you also need to think through possible scenarios beyond just salary. What happens when you marry someone with a higher income (LIPP punishes you) or lower income (LIPP doesn't adjust to help you support that person)? Might you need/want to take time off to care for kids or aging relatives? Do you have a lot of undergrad debt that won't be covered? Etc. For many of these scenarios LIPP imperfect but still the best program out there -- but you want to really have a realistic picture before you jump in rather than just relying on HLS's generalized assertion that "LIPP means you can take any job you want and not worry about your loans!"

LIPP is affirmatively terrible if you live in a high cost-of-living area--i.e. one of the places where the best legal jobs are--and have a middle to upper-middle-class job--e.g. fed gov or private public interest firm. In these cases, better to think of it as a poverty prevention plan (insurance) than as something that will pay off your loans for you.

[AnMzungu]

Has anyone here taken Burling's Advanced Legal Writing class?

I have. Burling is a horrible person and professor. I was probably middle-of-the-road performance-wise in class, but the way that he treats his "lower" students is truly shocking. I remember him responding to a student's answer with a tirade about how, essentially, anyone who reads the NYT for twenty minutes a day would know the answer and how we owe it to HLS to be informed when we go out into the world and represent Harvard.

I did, however, become a better writer from the class, but this was (I believe) merely due to practicing legal writing rather than anything Burling had to offer. Is the class useful? Yes. Is it worth having to deal with a hateful narcissist for a semester? Naw.