Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions Forum

[atticusfinchinsh]

Can anyone tell me about Mendelson, Mendlow, Uhlmann, or Falon?

Uhlmann plays it straight. Law school features a staggering amount of students who think sucking up to professors, going to every office hour, asking the professor to lunch, etc. is the way to get a good grade. They are the type of people who ask a question even when they know the answer just to show the professor that they are "thinking" and that they read. Some professors fall for that type of gimmicky behavior. Uhlmann doesn't. His exam tests the material. Know it, and you'll do well.

[Aeon]

For student comments on professors, check out this site: http://www.lawprofguide.com. I don't know if it's still being updated, but there is feedback on most of the MLaw professors there.

[03282016]

[UnamSanctam]

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[everything_bagel]

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[UnamSanctam]

Hey Wolverines! My apologies if this has already been asked, but could any of you weigh in on supplement recommendations for Starr's 1L Crim course? She was visiting at Chicago this past quarter.

tyia.

Dressler

[gazorpazorp]

Hi there! I was recently admitted to Michigan for a summer start.

My question is: will this severely cripple my scholarship negotiation process? I've heard of other people double-depositing at multiple schools, and using that leverage to get matching offers. ATM the only other T14 school that has admitted me is GULC, which is usually rather stingy with its earlier offers, so I would like to be able to be somewhat aggressive -- but it seems the time-crunch (one single Michigan deposit ONE MONTH before class starts) will mess up this process.

I do wonder if I may be able to "negotiate" my way to a fall start at Mich based on admittances/offers from other schools...?

Any insights would be appreciated.

[fishbulb]

If any Michigan students would be able to help me with some old exams from a former Mich professor, please PM me.

[Aeon]

Hi there! I was recently admitted to Michigan for a summer start.

My question is: will this severely cripple my scholarship negotiation process? I've heard of other people double-depositing at multiple schools, and using that leverage to get matching offers. ATM the only other T14 school that has admitted me is GULC, which is usually rather stingy with its earlier offers, so I would like to be able to be somewhat aggressive -- but it seems the time-crunch (one single Michigan deposit ONE MONTH before class starts) will mess up this process.

I do wonder if I may be able to "negotiate" my way to a fall start at Mich based on admittances/offers from other schools...?

Any insights would be appreciated.

Double-depositing is a fairly aggressive strategy, and in many cases people are able to negotiate scholarships before deposits are due. Some schools also expressly prohibit double-depositing, and you could lose your offer of admission by doing that in those cases.

I think it would look bad to try to negotiate to a fall start using admission or scholarship offers from other law schools. Generally speaking, Michigan doesn't like too much switching from summer to fall start or vice versa, because they need to appropriately distribute section sizes. If you need to switch, your best bet is simply to ask them. They might or might not oblige, but it helps if you have a compelling reason. If you're intent on switching, it'd be better to ask sooner rather than later, because not as many seats have been filled so far.

But you're still early in the process, and the deposit deadlines are far off. I think you have a decent shot at more admission and scholarship offers.

[jsycxx]

First of all, it's been very helpful to read the posts in this thread and many thanks to those sharing their experiences. Here are my questions.

What are the IP firms/offices that regularly come to OCI?

What class ranking is generally needed to secure an offer from a firm like Fish&Richardson Finnegan or WilmerHale?

Thanks.

[KiltedKicker]

First of all, it's been very helpful to read the posts in this thread and many thanks to those sharing their experiences. Here are my questions.

What are the IP firms/offices that regularly come to OCI?

What class ranking is generally needed to secure an offer from a firm like Fish&Richardson Finnegan or WilmerHale?

Thanks.

If I could add to this, can anyone speak to the difficulty of landing BigLaw jobs in the Bay Area? If I have a lot of connections in the area already, where in the class do you think I would roughly have to fall to be considered by the above mentioned firms, or firms like Cooley or Wilson Sonsini?

[yost]

I'll PM both of you guys when I get a chance. I can speak to both the IP boutiques and the Bay Area in general.

[Bluex12]

Hello Wolverines!

Can anyone speak to UM's ability to place students in BigLaw positions in general? I really want to come to Michigan, but my goal is BigLaw and I know UM's placement numbers are not as high as other T14's. Is this self-selection, in that many students do PI instead?

Second, does UM's policy of not ranking students seem to help or hurt come OCI? I feel like for students who are in the top 1/3 or so it would hurt-- (15th in my class sounds better than 'I have a 3.75').

I'm admitted for summer and really want to come, but this issue has been nagging at me. Thanks in advance.

[MM722]

Hello Wolverines!

Can anyone speak to UM's ability to place students in BigLaw positions in general? I really want to come to Michigan, but my goal is BigLaw and I know UM's placement numbers are not as high as other T14's. Is this self-selection, in that many students do PI instead?

Second, does UM's policy of not ranking students seem to help or hurt come OCI? I feel like for students who are in the top 1/3 or so it would hurt-- (15th in my class sounds better than 'I have a 3.75').

I'm admitted for summer and really want to come, but this issue has been nagging at me. Thanks in advance.

I'm very interested in this information as well; thank you!

[Aeon]

This post from the C/O 2019 applicants thread is by a current student and does a good job of getting into the details about the employment numbers:

Hi all.

Long time lurker here coming out of the woods to ask opinions. I was reading the UMich c/o 2018 forum and noticed that a lot of people were really concerned with Michigan's jobs stats released last March, to the extent that some people withdrew immediately and some appeared to eat their deposits and attend elsewhere or reapply next cycle.

I haven't seen as much concern on this thread or the Michigan law c/o 2019 thread (where I'll be cross-posting this question), but I'm curious if you all share this concern or think it's unfounded.

(CTT I've read several of your recent posts and you seem to articulate that it's not at all a worry - do you have any additional thoughts on the issue?)

The c/o 2014 stats were a lot better.

The c/o 2014 stats were exactly the stats released last March that the people in the c/o 2018 forum were concerned about...

Really? 2014 had a noticably higher employment score and noticably lower under-employment score from LST than 2013 or any recent year, really.

There was a stretch when the numbers were just bad. They've improved, and they're going to get better still. The problem, for Michigan, is that the employment data is basically 2.5 years behind. Firms and highly selected judges hire the summer after your 1L year, but the data doesn't come out until the spring after you graduate.

There's a pretty robust demand for Michigan grads. However, during the recession the school took its enrollment towards 400 / class. The entering class this fall was 267. The 2014 data is for a class of 390 graduates. It's also for a class that was on the old punitive grade curve. The class of 2016 was the first one to have the benefit of the new curve and a lower class size (~320). The data that are released in a year and a bit will reflect what we've all known since the summer of 2014: things got a ton better.

In terms of the market for Michigan grads: Basically, you've got a bunch of midsize firms that are focused on maintaining the connection to Michigan and getting a few Michigan grads, and they're not varying that a ton depending on whether the class is 400 or 250. Then you've got the big firms with which we were struggling prior to the class of 2016 because other schools had these easy grade curves and we were stuck on something else. Then you've got federal judges who are especially keen to higher Michigan graduates (lots of alums) and the demand from that group isn't really changing based on class size either. Then there are judges who don't have strong school preferences and the performance with them is helped by the GPA thing. The combination of reducing the class size by 33 percent and boosting the grade curve to be competitive with peer schools made a huge difference.

On a related note, I know some 3Ls who are still searching for jobs. In every case, it makes sense in some way. They fall into three groups: (A) The public interest people who are lining up jobs as we speak, cause that's how that market works. (B) A couple people I simply wouldn't want working for me and who, I suspect, fail to hide their complete and utter lack of professionalism in interviews. (C) The unlucky couple students who are super awkward but are actually smart, decent people. If you're the sort of person people will want to solve their problems and you're not super--and I mean SUPER--awkward, Michigan is going to work out just fine.

As far as how the 2014 data look:

Michigan:
90.3 percent employment vs 5.6 percent underemployment.

Obviously that's not the 100 percent we would like, but it's better than Northwestern (81.1 percent score), Duke (90.2 percent score), and Georgetown (79.7 percent score).

[Aeon]

Hello Wolverines!

Can anyone speak to UM's ability to place students in BigLaw positions in general? I really want to come to Michigan, but my goal is BigLaw and I know UM's placement numbers are not as high as other T14's. Is this self-selection, in that many students do PI instead?

Second, does UM's policy of not ranking students seem to help or hurt come OCI? I feel like for students who are in the top 1/3 or so it would hurt-- (15th in my class sounds better than 'I have a 3.75').

I'm admitted for summer and really want to come, but this issue has been nagging at me. Thanks in advance.

When I was doing OCI (about 5 years ago), it was generally the case that people had a good shot at BigLaw from somewhere south of median on up. Mind you, this was back when the class size was considerably larger and the legal market still reeling from the 2009-10 hiring crisis. That said, a number of otherwise qualified people end up pursuing government or public interest jobs, probably to a greater extent than in many of Michigan's peer schools, so this does affect the stated percentage of students ending up in BigLaw. A great deal also depends on which market you're targeting. The GPA cut-offs tend to be higher for competitive locations like DC, but much less so for New York.

On your second question, I think you asked something similar in the C/O 2019 applicants thread, but I don't think it necessarily helps or hurts during OCI. Many of the other top schools also do not rank students (or, like Harvard or Berkeley, have abolished letter grades), and employers have developed a good sense for the relative performance of candidates. They know that, for example, a 3.90 GPA from Michigan puts a person easily within the top 5%, and a 3.70 GPA is somewhere around the top 20%, and so forth. Of course it's not so granular that they can discern whether someone is ranked 5th in his class or something, but they nonetheless have a good idea about relative ranks.

[Bluex12]

Hello Wolverines!

Can anyone speak to UM's ability to place students in BigLaw positions in general? I really want to come to Michigan, but my goal is BigLaw and I know UM's placement numbers are not as high as other T14's. Is this self-selection, in that many students do PI instead?

Second, does UM's policy of not ranking students seem to help or hurt come OCI? I feel like for students who are in the top 1/3 or so it would hurt-- (15th in my class sounds better than 'I have a 3.75').

I'm admitted for summer and really want to come, but this issue has been nagging at me. Thanks in advance.

When I was doing OCI (about 5 years ago), it was generally the case that people had a good shot at BigLaw from somewhere south of median on up. Mind you, this was back when the class size was considerably larger and the legal market still reeling from the 2009-10 hiring crisis. That said, a number of otherwise qualified people end up pursuing government or public interest jobs, probably to a greater extent than in many of Michigan's peer schools, so this does affect the stated percentage of students ending up in BigLaw. A great deal also depends on which market you're targeting. The GPA cut-offs tend to be higher for competitive locations like DC, but much less so for New York.

On your second question, I think you asked something similar in the C/O 2019 applicants thread, but I don't think it necessarily helps or hurts during OCI. Many of the other top schools also do not rank students (or, like Harvard or Berkeley, have abolished letter grades), and employers have developed a good sense for the relative performance of candidates. They know that, for example, a 3.90 GPA from Michigan puts a person easily within the top 5%, and a 3.70 GPA is somewhere around the top 20%, and so forth. Of course it's not so granular that they can discern whether someone is ranked 5th in his class or something, but they nonetheless have a good idea about relative ranks.

Thanks Aeon, this was very helpful.

[wolverine84]

I'm the guy who put lawprofguide.com together. For those who might be interested, I recently posted a backlog of reviews and updated the format so that it's now a comment system that I won't have to update manually. Hope some people find it useful and/or entertaining.

If someone could let people know on lawopen that it's been updated, that'd be great. I'm no longer on the listserv.

[Aeon]

I'm the guy who put lawprofguide.com together. For those who might be interested, I recently posted a backlog of reviews and updated the format so that it's now a comment system that I won't have to update manually. Hope some people find it useful and/or entertaining.

If someone could let people know on lawopen that it's been updated, that'd be great. I'm no longer on the listserv.

Thanks! Your site was a great resource for us when we were selecting classes back in the day. Your efforts are much appreciated.

[wolverine84]

I'm the guy who put lawprofguide.com together. For those who might be interested, I recently posted a backlog of reviews and updated the format so that it's now a comment system that I won't have to update manually. Hope some people find it useful and/or entertaining.

If someone could let people know on lawopen that it's been updated, that'd be great. I'm no longer on the listserv.

Thanks! Your site was a great resource for us when we were selecting classes back in the day. Your efforts are much appreciated.

No prob! I started putting it together as a way to avoid studying for finals and the bar back in 2010. Glad some people found it useful.

[gazorpazorp]

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[matterhorn]

Will most likely be attending Michigan in the fall and had a few questions about parking. Would bringing a car be a bad idea? How's the parking situation both on campus and off (do most apartments come with a parking space)? Thanks in advance!

[Aeon]

Hey all. 0L here. I've currently narrowed my choice down to Michigan vs. GULC. As of now, GULC's debt-financed COA would be 20k cheaper.

My goal is BigLaw/FC. Based on that, I'm currently leaning towards Mich, as they consistently place 15-20% more of their class into BL/FC than GULC. And in terms of the % of students obtaining a LT/FT job before graduation, Mich consistently hovers around the 80% mark while GULC hovers around a disturbing 55-60%. However... there are a few reasons why I'm not counting GULC out just yet. I guess I want to give you guys this opportunity to tell me I'm nuts.

Firstly, my preferred landing spots are DC/Philadelphia. GULC is somewhat well-represented in Philly (as far as non-local schools go). Mich, not so much, but I'm wondering if that just has to do with the fact that not a whole lot Michigan grads want Philly. Any insights into how hard it would be to get Philly BigLaw from Mich (w/ties)? I have read that a decent amount of Philly firms come to OCI. As far as DC: as I understand it, you need something like top 10% to feel comfortable about obtaining DC BigLaw out of GULC. Does this also hold true at Michigan?

Then there are other "top" destinations for Mich grads, like Chicago & various Cali landing spots -- are jobs in these cities typically reserved for those with pre-established ties, or is it possible for Mich students to get BigLaw in these cities w/out ties?

Finally, putting the numbers aside for a second, what is the atmosphere like at Mich? I attended Preview Weekend and liked it, but I was wondering if you guys could give some insight into the general levels of anxiety, friendliness, "gunner"-ness, etc.

Thanks!

On Philadelphia, I think Michigan's low representation there is largely due to self-selection. I didn't know personally anybody in my class who wanted to work there after graduation, but Michigan has a strong reputation on the East Coast, so if you wanted to end up there, you'd have a decent shot. It might require a bit more legwork to get interviews, to the extent that some Philly firms won't be participating in OCI. Since you have ties to the area, though, it shouldn't be difficult to convince firms that you're a serious candidate.

In DC, firms will dig deeper into the class at Michigan than they do at GULC. There's also a strong Michigan alumni network in DC BigLaw, which helps. I don't know the approximate grade cut-offs for firms these days, but it's probably around the top 20% or 25%. I'm happy to stand corrected by any current students on the exact numbers.

You may be able to get Chicago, but it's a relatively small BigLaw market, so you need to do well if you have limited ties. Not sure about California, but I understand that they are fairly picky about ties.

I found the atmosphere at Michigan relaxed enough to my liking. Most of the people were friendly, and I found myself getting along fine with everyone. There is of course some level of anxiety, mostly around exam-time, as there is at any other top law school, but it's not too bad. It helps to get away from law school sometimes to regroup, and I found it beneficial to live off-campus, since it gave me a place to go where I wasn't constantly surrounded by other law students.

There was a decent number of earnest students, whom some might call gunners, I suppose. But the overall level of social awkwardness was relatively low. And there wasn't anything like people sabotaging others or tearing pages out of books or whatever other horror stories sometimes circulate.

[Aeon]

Will most likely be attending Michigan in the fall and had a few questions about parking. Would bringing a car be a bad idea? How's the parking situation both on campus and off (do most apartments come with a parking space)? Thanks in advance!

Not a bad idea, plenty of people had cars. Michigan is car-friendly, and it helps that Ann Arbor is pretty spread out. There are numerous on-campus parking options: https://pts.umich.edu/parking/students.php. As a graduate student, you're entitled to purchase a Yellow parking permit, which gives access to lots that are close to the law school, and if you need to keep a car there full-time, you can tack on an After Hours permit.

For off-campus, a lot depends on your apartment. If you're very close to campus, there may be limited parking spots at your apartment or on the street or relatively high fees, but if you're living further out, then parking is plentiful and often free.

[Tiddlywinks]

Any idea of the difficulty of returning to Ohio from Michigan? I saw on the OCI list that a few firms come from Columbus/Cleveland which seems like a good starting point. I read somewhere in an old post on the fourm that some Ohio firms look poorly on Michigan grads since the whole OSU - Mich riviarly. I'm hoping they were just talking out their butt and it's not really a factor. Down to choosing Mich vs Cornell and just trying to make sure Mich is the right choice for me. Thanks in advance!