Any reason not to do a non-continental Art III Clerkship Forum

[Anonymous User]

Non U.S. Citizen here. Recently completed 3L. Don't want to put too much more information because I don't want a "chance me" war.

Don't really wanna volunteer clerk, and probably don't have the grades for NY Court of Appeals (certainly don't have the grades for Del. Chancery) - would like to stay in the NYC metro area for the near future.

Is there any reason I should be aware of for why the non continental Art III clerkships are a bad idea if I want to practice in NYC? I understand SDNY and the ND/SD Cal. are a notch above most other districts, but is there any difference between an Article III court in Puerto Rico and say Indiana?

I've always wanted to clerk since first semester of 1L, but if its not gonna help my career maybe I should disregard the idea.

[Quichelorraine]

Non U.S. Citizen here. Recently completed 3L. Don't want to put too much more information because I don't want a "chance me" war.

Don't really wanna volunteer clerk, and probably don't have the grades for NY Court of Appeals (certainly don't have the grades for Del. Chancery) - would like to stay in the NYC metro area for the near future.

Is there any reason I should be aware of for why the non continental Art III clerkships are a bad idea if I want to practice in NYC? I understand SDNY and the ND/SD Cal. are a notch above most other districts, but is there any difference between an Article III court in Puerto Rico and say Indiana?

I've always wanted to clerk since first semester of 1L, but if its not gonna help my career maybe I should disregard the idea.

This is an interesting question. What are your actual career goals? Many folks who want to litigate in NYC end up clerking elsewhere, so that is hardly unusual. Are you assuming that the "non continental" clerkships are easier to get? I'm not sure that's true, but I don't have the numbers. (I also don't know how Puerto Rico clerkships are viewed; perhaps a First Circuit person would be better positioned to answer that.)

Anyway, as far as federal trial courts go, your "non-continental" Article III options are actually kind of limited, and/or are a distinction without a difference. DVI, Guam, and Northern Mariana Islands aren't Article III, but Article IV territorial courts. Hawaii is Article III, of course, but I imagine it's pretty competitive and/or hires a lot of people who want to practice in Hawaii. Zero clue on how competitive District Courts in Alaska are.

I know the Supreme Court of Alaska hires pretty broadly and aggressively, although that obviously isn't Article III.

[Barrred]

OP is referring to the fact that non-US citizens are allowed to be paid clerks in non-continental clerkships (Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, and Alaska), otherwise they have to clerk on a volunteer basis. (See https://oscar.uscourts.gov/citizenship_requirements).

I don't have much direct experience with non-continental district court clerkships, but my impression is that they are about as prestigious as non-major-market continental district court clerkships. (Anecdotally, i've heard bad things from people who clerked in Puerto Rico.)

[Anonymous User]

I can't speak to Puerto Rico specifically, but I clerked for one of the Article IV district courts (i.e., in Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, or the Virgin Islands). Those courts essentially exercise the same jurisdiction as a federal district court (and there are separate territorial court systems that mirror the state courts in the states). You're likely to get similar experience there to the experience you would get in the flyover Article III district courts (lots of discrimination claims and guns/drugs federal offenses), and I would encourage you to consider those courts too.

In my experience, firms also treat those courts the same as Article III district courts. When I went to biglaw, I received the same clerkship bonus and class credit as my peers who clerked at Article III district courts. I returned to the firm I summered at so I can't speak to whether firm hiring is the same (and I think there is a lot of merit to the assertion on this message board that if you weren't competitive for biglaw before your clerkship, you probably won't be after).

I doubt that Puerto Rico is substantially different (at least casewise). If anything, it would have some more sophisticated cases because it is a larger jurisdiction.

TLDR: It won't be SDNY and you likely won't be doing securities litigation cases, but there probably isn't much of a difference in someone's experience if they clerk in the territories or in Indiana.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard of a number of non-US citizens do clerkships in Hawaii and Alaska, including COA judges who sit there.

I imagine that, for this reason, they are going to be slightly more competitive than the average not-major-market district court (e.g., as you say, Indiana). There are not very many available judges or positions, there are some spots that will go to people interested in practicing in that state (as opposed to flying back to NYC), and there are a lot of T14 non-US citizens interested in clerking and getting paid for it.

Definitely no reason not to apply.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard of a number of non-US citizens do clerkships in Hawaii and Alaska, including COA judges who sit there.

I imagine that, for this reason, they are going to be slightly more competitive than the average not-major-market district court (e.g., as you say, Indiana). There are not very many available judges or positions, there are some spots that will go to people interested in practicing in that state (as opposed to flying back to NYC), and there are a lot of T14 non-US citizens interested in clerking and getting paid for it.

Definitely no reason not to apply.

From a CA9 perspective I can tell you that a clerkship with Kleinfeld, Christen, Clifton, or Bennett is a wonderful opportunity that would carry the same weight in NYC biglaw as pretty much any other CA9 clerkship. (Maybe a feeder would be viewed a little higher, but with Kozinski and Reinhardt gone, CA9 no longer has a true "huge name feeder.") Assuming you're willing to live in Alaska and Hawaii, there's no reason not to apply to all 4. Bear in mind that the culture shock of moving to Alaska will be much greater in Fairbanks (Kleinfeld) than Anchorage (Christen).

I don't know as much about CA1 but I can't imagine the situation with Judge Torreulla is any different. I know that he splits his time between Boston and San Juan and keeps one clerk in Boston, and my guess would be that non-citizens can only get paid if they are assigned to San Juan.

[Anonymous User]

Anon district court clerk from above.

I'm assuming that OP is mostly concerned with the district courts because he says he is not competitive for NY or Delaware. But yeah, definitely no difference for the federal court of appeals judges.

[Qtc]

Except Kleinfeld asks for LSAT scores, which is beyond irrational.

[Anonymous User]

Except Kleinfeld asks for LSAT scores, which is beyond irrational.

That's not the big problem with his application process.

It's something like 5 or 6 rounds, including a couple very substantive ones (all over the phone of course). I only got the fourth round before taking a different clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

Except Kleinfeld asks for LSAT scores, which is beyond irrational.

That's not the big problem with his application process.

It's something like 5 or 6 rounds, including a couple very substantive ones (all over the phone of course). I only got the fourth round before taking a different clerkship.

I've heard the final round is in person in one of the cities where the Ninth Circuit sits, while he's on a calendar (to spare the applicant the time and expense of getting to Fairbanks). Having a preliminary round or two by phone is normal, but 5-6 is insane.

[Anonymous User]

Except Kleinfeld asks for LSAT scores, which is beyond irrational.

That's not the big problem with his application process.

It's something like 5 or 6 rounds, including a couple very substantive ones (all over the phone of course). I only got the fourth round before taking a different clerkship.

I've heard the final round is in person in one of the cities where the Ninth Circuit sits, while he's on a calendar (to spare the applicant the time and expense of getting to Fairbanks). Having a preliminary round or two by phone is normal, but 5-6 is insane.

Yeah last round is in a city, and unless you do something ridiculously dumb, you already have the offer. I'm not sure it's even an actual interview at all, I think it's just dinner.