Clerkship PSA Forum

[Anonymous User]

Like many of us TLSers, I was lucky enough to go to a school and to have the grades such that clerking was a clear choice for me out of law school. It’s prestitious, it’s good training, and it gives you a significant salary boost in biglaw or a substantial leg up for more niche opportunities. Why not, eh?

I’m writing from a clerkship so abusive and miserable that I fantasize daily about being hit by a car on my way to work and injured just seriously enough that I could be incapacitated until August. I realize a lot of clerks have great experiences. But for those of us who don’t — and it is a non-negligible percentage — you will have no HR, no recourse, no opportunity to leave on good terms before your commitment is complete. It may just be a year (or two) but it can feel unbearably long and be extremely detrimental to your mental health.

I’m not here to say don’t pursue a clerkship, but please, investigate in advance. Talk to alum, talk to others who’ve been on that circuit/district, and don’t interview anywhere without finding verification that the chambers is humane if you can possibly help it. Read the vibes in an interview and back out gracefully if you need to — my interview was littered with red flags but I waved them away because I thought I had no choice. I did have one and you do too.

Be careful out there, friends.

[Vursz]

So sorry to hear what you’re going through. Have some thoughts if you want to talk. Feel free to PM me.

[QContinuum]

Thanks for sharing this deeply personal experience, OP. Very sorry for your pain. Hope things improve at least slightly between now and August.

To other TLSers considering clerking: Please don't dismiss OP's story out of hand. There really are a non-negligible number of "nightmare" judges to clerk for out there. These judges are found in "nonprestigious" and "prestigious" districts alike. They can be found on the appellate courts. Their behavior may be an "open secret," as with Kozinski, or their behavior may be slightly less cinematic, slightly more "discreet" (not that that "discretion" really means anything to you if you're the clerk being abused).

In any event, don't let the allure of the clerkship brass ring blind your senses to red flags. Judges aren't deities to be worshipped. The clerkship credential isn't remotely worth your dignity, your self-respect, your mental health, even your physical health. Of course, clerkships can be great and important and enormously beneficial, professionally, educationally, and even personally. But at the end of the day, they aren't the be-all end-all. There are very few positions that can't be achieved by clerking for a different judge, or even with no clerkship at all. Heed OP's warning. Don't go down that rabbit hole because you feel you must clerk now and how could anyone ever turn down an opportunity to clerk on the [insert number] Circuit?! In the long view, few if any clerkships are worth that level of personal sacrifice. Worse yet, the sacrifice may not even pay off. There's no guarantee an abusive judge will "repay" their clerk for taking the abuse by going above and beyond to help their future career.

[mjb447]

Some stories and commiseration in this earlier thread.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=259620

Definitely a more common experience than people think (and are led to believe).

[Anonymous User]

You are not alone in this. I highly recommend reaching out to Law Clerks for Workplace Accountability. They are working not just on sexual harassment, but on abusive conduct more broadly.

I am so sorry to hear you are having such a devastating year. I didn't think I would survive my clerkship last year: my physical health declined to such a degree that at one point I genuinely thought I might not make it because the environment was so abusive. It's been a year and a lot of therapy, but it gets better.

I, too, wish more people were aware of this. However, as you seem to know, there are no meaningful reporting mechanisms. Of the couple dozen folks I know who clerked/are clerking, two had great experiences. The rest had middling to bad. About a dozen had pretty horrific chambers that would be legally actionable if any law applied.

[HillandHollow]

I’m not here to say don’t pursue a clerkship, but please, investigate in advance. Talk to alum, talk to others who’ve been on that circuit/district, and don’t interview anywhere without finding verification that the chambers is humane if you can possibly help it. Read the vibes in an interview and back out gracefully if you need to — my interview was littered with red flags but I waved them away because I thought I had no choice. I did have one and you do too.

Be careful out there, friends.

If a potential applicant/interviewee reached out and asked you about your experience, would you be honest and forthright about it?

[Anonymous User]

You are not alone in this. I highly recommend reaching out to Law Clerks for Workplace Accountability. They are working not just on sexual harassment, but on abusive conduct more broadly.

I am so sorry to hear you are having such a devastating year. I didn't think I would survive my clerkship last year: my physical health declined to such a degree that at one point I genuinely thought I might not make it because the environment was so abusive. It's been a year and a lot of therapy, but it gets better.

I, too, wish more people were aware of this. However, as you seem to know, there are no meaningful reporting mechanisms. Of the couple dozen folks I know who clerked/are clerking, two had great experiences. The rest had middling to bad. About a dozen had pretty horrific chambers that would be legally actionable if any law applied.

OP here. Thanks to all who replied. Do you have any insight as to what resources or advocacy Law Clerks for Workplace Accountability offers?

[Anonymous User]

I’m not here to say don’t pursue a clerkship, but please, investigate in advance. Talk to alum, talk to others who’ve been on that circuit/district, and don’t interview anywhere without finding verification that the chambers is humane if you can possibly help it. Read the vibes in an interview and back out gracefully if you need to — my interview was littered with red flags but I waved them away because I thought I had no choice. I did have one and you do too.

Be careful out there, friends.

If a potential applicant/interviewee reached out and asked you about your experience, would you be honest and forthright about it?

I’ve been deflecting any outreach. I’m unwilling to lie, but I don’t like the idea of an applicant getting lucky by talking to me at the expense of another who doesn’t have that resource. If anyone has any thoughts on how to better approach this aspect of my situation I’m all ears.

[Twiqbalz]

I’m not here to say don’t pursue a clerkship, but please, investigate in advance. Talk to alum, talk to others who’ve been on that circuit/district, and don’t interview anywhere without finding verification that the chambers is humane if you can possibly help it. Read the vibes in an interview and back out gracefully if you need to — my interview was littered with red flags but I waved them away because I thought I had no choice. I did have one and you do too.

Be careful out there, friends.

If a potential applicant/interviewee reached out and asked you about your experience, would you be honest and forthright about it?

I’ve been deflecting any outreach. I’m unwilling to lie, but I don’t like the idea of an applicant getting lucky by talking to me at the expense of another who doesn’t have that resource. If anyone has any thoughts on how to better approach this aspect of my situation I’m all ears.

Is this a "if I can't save them all, I won't save any of them" kind of rationale?

[Anonymous User]

Is this a "if I can't save them all, I won't save any of them" kind of rationale?

Yeah, I suppose it is. It’s not great, I know, but I don’t like the idea of helping my school’s alum at the expense of others.

Also, the idea of talking on the phone to applicants I don’t know & have never met about something this vulnerable scares me. Maybe I’ll be in better shape to do it when I’m out of this space.

What do you suggest?

[Quichelorraine]

This is awful. I'm so sorry to hear it. This is, I suspect, more common than people think.

As with the prior poster, please feel free to reach out if you ever need to vent.

[lavarman84]

Is this a "if I can't save them all, I won't save any of them" kind of rationale?

Yeah, I suppose it is. It’s not great, I know, but I don’t like the idea of helping my school’s alum at the expense of others.

Also, the idea of talking on the phone to applicants I don’t know & have never met about something this vulnerable scares me. Maybe I’ll be in better shape to do it when I’m out of this space.

What do you suggest?

I don't blame you for not wanting to speak out. I've talked to a few people over the phone about my judge and the other judges in the division. I've been very lucky with the judge I landed. I say lucky because I didn't vet the clerkship at all and just happened to land with an absolutely tremendous person. However, there are a couple other judges in the division whom I would recommend a person avoid. However, I am not willing to straight up tell a person I don't know that over the phone. I do try to use coded language for them to read between the lines, but at the end of the day, it puts us clerks in a difficult spot.

[Anonymous User]

Read the vibes in an interview and back out gracefully if you need to — my interview was littered with red flags but I waved them away because I thought I had no choice. I did have one and you do too.

Be careful out there, friends.

I'm so sorry. Thank you for sharing this. If you don't mind answering, what were some of the red flags? Do you have thoughts on typical red flags that people should watch out for?

[Anonymous User]

Read the vibes in an interview and back out gracefully if you need to — my interview was littered with red flags but I waved them away because I thought I had no choice. I did have one and you do too.

Be careful out there, friends.

I'm so sorry. Thank you for sharing this. If you don't mind answering, what were some of the red flags? Do you have thoughts on typical red flags that people should watch out for?

I don’t want to get too specific, but there were a couple statements made that felt like intimidation tactics, though the interview on the whole was positive and I did feel happy when I got the spot. I brushed off my unease at the time.

I’m sure that not every terrible chambers puts their dynamic on display to some degree during an interview. (Though now that I’m here in my chambers I know that what I experienced was in fact calculated and is deployed at every interview. My judge basically checks to see if you can calmly look him in the eye while you’re being threatened.) But regardless I strongly advise getting a former clerk’s glowing review before you even make it to this stage. I doubt the idea that there are typical red flags.

[Anonymous User]

It's hard to suss out the red flags. My judge also had certain stock behaviors at the interview: for example, using offensive slurs or language in front of applicants with the identity that the language referred to... But I don't think that this is common.

I've also heard of clerks going rogue and being completely direct in the clerk-only interviews: this is valiant, but rare.

I think you should try to suss out things like hours and flexibility from former clerks (don't necessarily ask the current clerks, as some judges take questions like this to mean: 1) you assume you will get it and want to know hours; or 2) you will be put off by hours). You should ask about interactions with other chambers and court staff. And, if possible, try to ask other people who clerked in that jurisdiction what they observed from the outside: they may feel less loyal and be able to offer a more realistic picture without feeling like they will suffer the consequences.

When in doubt, don't clerk. Easy to say from people who have clerked, but if enough of us start saying it, I hope people will listen and make better choices.

[Anonymous User]

In addition to the above, make sure that you're paying specific attention to red flags by the career clerk——not just the judge. A lot of interviewees don't really understand how much power a judge's career clerk holds in the management of chambers. My district is full of nice judges, but some of the career clerks are just insufferable——and that can severely damper your experience.

[Anonymous User]

In addition to the above, make sure that you're paying specific attention to red flags by the career clerk——not just the judge. A lot of interviewees don't really understand how much power a judge's career clerk holds in the management of chambers. My district is full of nice judges, but some of the career clerks are just insufferable——and that can severely damper your experience.

Don't overlook the JA either. In most chambers they're essentially a secretary and even if they're hard to get along with they won't ruin your clerkship experience...but in some chambers, a JA who has been with the judge for decades can function as a de facto career clerk even if they're not a lawyer and is a powerful middleman between the clerks and the judge.