What's the deal with clerkships and PI? Forum

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LivHandsome

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What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by LivHandsome » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:15 pm

Disclaimer: I know I'm thinking wayyy too far ahead. I'm not making any plans; just curious.

I'm a pre-OL who wants to go into PI, but the idea of doing a clerkship or two after law school appeals to me. I've moved around a lot and like the idea of doing a yearlong stint somewhere I haven't been before (I'm almost certainly doing TFA or VISTA between undergrad and law school), and learning about the practice of law from an experienced judge.

Here and elsewhere, I mostly hear clerkships referenced as jumping-off points to biglaw (which I do not want) or government (which I'd definitely consider). I can't tell whether this is just because most people on these forums or at T14/T20 schools want biglaw, so there's more discussion of those outcomes, or whether doing a clerkship isn't advisable for those who want to do public interest work. So--do people do clerkships before going into PI? Or will I probably be keeping all of my experience more tightly related to the type of PI I want to practice?

Thanks!

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by Sls17 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:30 pm

Yes, people do clerkships before PI. This is especially true of impact litigation / ACLU type PI, or of grads aiming for prestigious fellowships like the Skadden. But it’s definitely not unheard of to do a clerkship and then transition to run-of-the-mill direct services work, public defense, what have you. In addition to being a good experience, it’s a nice way to skip the first year or two of lowest PI pay without losing your LRAP eligibility.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:32 pm

LivHandsome wrote:Disclaimer: I know I'm thinking wayyy too far ahead. I'm not making any plans; just curious.

I'm a pre-OL who wants to go into PI, but the idea of doing a clerkship or two after law school appeals to me. I've moved around a lot and like the idea of doing a yearlong stint somewhere I haven't been before (I'm almost certainly doing TFA or VISTA between undergrad and law school), and learning about the practice of law from an experienced judge.

Here and elsewhere, I mostly hear clerkships referenced as jumping-off points to biglaw (which I do not want) or government (which I'd definitely consider). I can't tell whether this is just because most people on these forums or at T14/T20 schools want biglaw, so there's more discussion of those outcomes, or whether doing a clerkship isn't advisable for those who want to do public interest work. So--do people do clerkships before going into PI? Or will I probably be keeping all of my experience more tightly related to the type of PI I want to practice?

Thanks!
I fedclerked then jumped to gov. But you’ll learn that biglaw is an important credential for a litigator, even if only 2-3 years of it...and the nest egg and/or debt pay down early in your career is quite valuable also. The earlier you realize this, the easier it’ll be to get in. It’s not impossible to go clerk to gov to biglaw (as I did) but it’s much harder than clerk to biglaw to gov/PI.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by LivHandsome » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:18 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
LivHandsome wrote:Disclaimer: I know I'm thinking wayyy too far ahead. I'm not making any plans; just curious.

I'm a pre-OL who wants to go into PI, but the idea of doing a clerkship or two after law school appeals to me. I've moved around a lot and like the idea of doing a yearlong stint somewhere I haven't been before (I'm almost certainly doing TFA or VISTA between undergrad and law school), and learning about the practice of law from an experienced judge.

Here and elsewhere, I mostly hear clerkships referenced as jumping-off points to biglaw (which I do not want) or government (which I'd definitely consider). I can't tell whether this is just because most people on these forums or at T14/T20 schools want biglaw, so there's more discussion of those outcomes, or whether doing a clerkship isn't advisable for those who want to do public interest work. So--do people do clerkships before going into PI? Or will I probably be keeping all of my experience more tightly related to the type of PI I want to practice?

Thanks!
I fedclerked then jumped to gov. But you’ll learn that biglaw is an important credential for a litigator, even if only 2-3 years of it...and the nest egg and/or debt pay down early in your career is quite valuable also. The earlier you realize this, the easier it’ll be to get in. It’s not impossible to go clerk to gov to biglaw (as I did) but it’s much harder than clerk to biglaw to gov/PI.
Thanks for the info! I'm not sure I understand the bolded part of your response, though. I'm positive that I don't want biglaw and was under the impression that it doesn't look great to PI employers--I'd like to clerk and then go straight into PI or gov work. Do you mean that it makes more sense to do biglaw at some point in that progression?

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by Sls17 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:39 pm

LivHandsome wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
LivHandsome wrote:Disclaimer: I know I'm thinking wayyy too far ahead. I'm not making any plans; just curious.

I'm a pre-OL who wants to go into PI, but the idea of doing a clerkship or two after law school appeals to me. I've moved around a lot and like the idea of doing a yearlong stint somewhere I haven't been before (I'm almost certainly doing TFA or VISTA between undergrad and law school), and learning about the practice of law from an experienced judge.

Here and elsewhere, I mostly hear clerkships referenced as jumping-off points to biglaw (which I do not want) or government (which I'd definitely consider). I can't tell whether this is just because most people on these forums or at T14/T20 schools want biglaw, so there's more discussion of those outcomes, or whether doing a clerkship isn't advisable for those who want to do public interest work. So--do people do clerkships before going into PI? Or will I probably be keeping all of my experience more tightly related to the type of PI I want to practice?

Thanks!
I fedclerked then jumped to gov. But you’ll learn that biglaw is an important credential for a litigator, even if only 2-3 years of it...and the nest egg and/or debt pay down early in your career is quite valuable also. The earlier you realize this, the easier it’ll be to get in. It’s not impossible to go clerk to gov to biglaw (as I did) but it’s much harder than clerk to biglaw to gov/PI.
Thanks for the info! I'm not sure I understand the bolded part of your response, though. I'm positive that I don't want biglaw and was under the impression that it doesn't look great to PI employers--I'd like to clerk and then go straight into PI or gov work. Do you mean that it makes more sense to do biglaw at some point in that progression?
No, it doesn’t make sense to do biglaw as part of a typical PI progression. I don’t think objctnyrhnr was really responding to your question as you framed it, but instead focused on your openness to govt work, which doesn’t appear to be your main goal. I don’t know what your PI goals are exactly, but regardless feel free to carry on with zero interest in biglaw.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:26 pm

I suppose my point was that I, like many 0Ls (and I know there’s some stat somewhere on this), sincerely 100% aspired to do gov/pi and clerk first if I could. I wasn’t just saying it to write it in my ps. I really felt this way. My desire was so strong that I took a t20 on very substantial scholly over lower t13 (one might be a t10 or better I don’t keep track anymore). Even after 1L I still felt this way so I skipped oci because I also had no desire to go biglaw.

I then fedclerked and went to govt over my judge’s advice. problem is that I didn’t find a lot of people like myself in terms of creativity, work ethic, drive, etc. in govt. I eventually got sick of the bureaucracy, and to a degree the work. I felt I wasn’t growing. I also was noticing that many people in my target longer-term jobs (semi competitive usao for example) all had that biglaw stamp, as do the vast majority of top level litigators you will find. Also govt money goes much further in your 20s than in your 30s when life starts to happen.

Anyway I ended up networking into a v20 (which took a while and wasn’t easy) and I absolutely love the work and the people and the environment and yes the money. My only regret is not doing this FIRST then going to govt some years later. That’s what I’m trying to tell you—the same thing the judge told me: biglaw first.

In my experience in litigation, the people who find themselves hating biglaw are people who don’t actually like being litigators that much. By contrast, the people who do love the challenge, the demand, and The complexity of the work (maybe after their first years to that last point depending on the firm).

Anyway I’m not telling you what to do and I’m confirming that you can definitely go from fedclerk to gov/pi as I did. I’m also just saying that I think if you grind out biglaw for a couple years, get the credential, take advantage of the exit options and the experience, you won’t risk finding yourself wanting to do it like me in the reverse which is much more difficult.

And lastly there’s definitely a difference between say being a line pd or a line ada versus landing like unicorn aclu appellate impact stuff. I doubt I would have gotten frustrated in the way that I did if I had gunned for and gotten one of those positions.

Anyway best of luck with whatever you do.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by lavarman84 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:18 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:I suppose my point was that I, like many 0Ls (and I know there’s some stat somewhere on this), sincerely 100% aspired to do gov/pi and clerk first if I could. I wasn’t just saying it to write it in my ps. I really felt this way. My desire was so strong that I took a t20 on very substantial scholly over lower t13 (one might be a t10 or better I don’t keep track anymore). Even after 1L I still felt this way so I skipped oci because I also had no desire to go biglaw.

I then fedclerked and went to govt over my judge’s advice. problem is that I didn’t find a lot of people like myself in terms of creativity, work ethic, drive, etc. in govt. I eventually got sick of the bureaucracy, and to a degree the work. I felt I wasn’t growing. I also was noticing that many people in my target longer-term jobs (semi competitive usao for example) all had that biglaw stamp, as do the vast majority of top level litigators you will find. Also govt money goes much further in your 20s than in your 30s when life starts to happen.

Anyway I ended up networking into a v20 (which took a while and wasn’t easy) and I absolutely love the work and the people and the environment and yes the money. My only regret is not doing this FIRST then going to govt some years later. That’s what I’m trying to tell you—the same thing the judge told me: biglaw first.

In my experience in litigation, the people who find themselves hating biglaw are people who don’t actually like being litigators that much. By contrast, the people who do love the challenge, the demand, and The complexity of the work (maybe after their first years to that last point depending on the firm).

Anyway I’m not telling you what to do and I’m confirming that you can definitely go from fedclerk to gov/pi as I did. I’m also just saying that I think if you grind out biglaw for a couple years, get the credential, take advantage of the exit options and the experience, you won’t risk finding yourself wanting to do it like me in the reverse which is much more difficult.

And lastly there’s definitely a difference between say being a line pd or a line ada versus landing like unicorn aclu appellate impact stuff. I doubt I would have gotten frustrated in the way that I did if I had gunned for and gotten one of those positions.

Anyway best of luck with whatever you do.
Just out of curiosity, how many cases have you tried in biglaw?

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:31 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:I suppose my point was that I, like many 0Ls (and I know there’s some stat somewhere on this), sincerely 100% aspired to do gov/pi and clerk first if I could. I wasn’t just saying it to write it in my ps. I really felt this way. My desire was so strong that I took a t20 on very substantial scholly over lower t13 (one might be a t10 or better I don’t keep track anymore). Even after 1L I still felt this way so I skipped oci because I also had no desire to go biglaw.

I then fedclerked and went to govt over my judge’s advice. problem is that I didn’t find a lot of people like myself in terms of creativity, work ethic, drive, etc. in govt. I eventually got sick of the bureaucracy, and to a degree the work. I felt I wasn’t growing. I also was noticing that many people in my target longer-term jobs (semi competitive usao for example) all had that biglaw stamp, as do the vast majority of top level litigators you will find. Also govt money goes much further in your 20s than in your 30s when life starts to happen.

Anyway I ended up networking into a v20 (which took a while and wasn’t easy) and I absolutely love the work and the people and the environment and yes the money. My only regret is not doing this FIRST then going to govt some years later. That’s what I’m trying to tell you—the same thing the judge told me: biglaw first.

In my experience in litigation, the people who find themselves hating biglaw are people who don’t actually like being litigators that much. By contrast, the people who do love the challenge, the demand, and The complexity of the work (maybe after their first years to that last point depending on the firm).

Anyway I’m not telling you what to do and I’m confirming that you can definitely go from fedclerk to gov/pi as I did. I’m also just saying that I think if you grind out biglaw for a couple years, get the credential, take advantage of the exit options and the experience, you won’t risk finding yourself wanting to do it like me in the reverse which is much more difficult.

And lastly there’s definitely a difference between say being a line pd or a line ada versus landing like unicorn aclu appellate impact stuff. I doubt I would have gotten frustrated in the way that I did if I had gunned for and gotten one of those positions.

Anyway best of luck with whatever you do.
Just out of curiosity, how many cases have you tried in biglaw?
A few, but just one as declared first chair. I’d like to think part of the reason I was poached from gov was to actually do stuff in this biglaw group. Why?

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by lavarman84 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:24 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:In my experience in litigation, the people who find themselves hating biglaw are people who don’t actually like being litigators that much. By contrast, the people who do love the challenge, the demand, and The complexity of the work (maybe after their first years to that last point depending on the firm).
Just out of curiosity, how many cases have you tried in biglaw?
A few, but just one as declared first chair. I’d like to think part of the reason I was poached from gov was to actually do stuff in this biglaw group. Why?
In my experience, a lot of people who don't like biglaw don't like being litigators who don't get to try cases. Some people are happy to bill 2000+ hours a year while barely getting to go to court. But many of the people who love litigation don't like that lifestyle.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:28 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
lavarman84 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:In my experience in litigation, the people who find themselves hating biglaw are people who don’t actually like being litigators that much. By contrast, the people who do love the challenge, the demand, and The complexity of the work (maybe after their first years to that last point depending on the firm).
Just out of curiosity, how many cases have you tried in biglaw?
A few, but just one as declared first chair. I’d like to think part of the reason I was poached from gov was to actually do stuff in this biglaw group. Why?
In my experience, a lot of people who don't like biglaw don't like being litigators who don't get to try cases. Some people are happy to bill 2000+ hours a year while barely getting to go to court. But many of the people who love litigation don't like that lifestyle.
Yeah, I think that’s fair. This isn’t the first time that I’ve found myself wondering if it just happens to be a function of the specific group in the specific office in the specific firm at which I have landed that pleasantly colors my biglaw experience.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by LivHandsome » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:31 pm

Thanks for all the input! It seems like the consensus is that public interest and government work can have very different progressions, which I hadn't realized before. I really am focused on public interest specifically (impact litigation would be a dream job, but not something I'm going to bank on), so I'll keep that in mind if/when I have to broaden my goals.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by objctnyrhnr » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:43 pm

LivHandsome wrote:Thanks for all the input! It seems like the consensus is that public interest and government work can have very different progressions, which I hadn't realized before. I really am focused on public interest specifically (impact litigation would be a dream job, but not something I'm going to bank on), so I'll keep that in mind if/when I have to broaden my goals.
I would suggest using LinkedIn or attorney bio on your target entity/ies and see what they have on there. Without having personally checked, intuitively, I would expect a great many of the attorneys doing the aclu impact stuff have some sort of top flight biglaw appellate practice on there (likely following some fedclerking and a t6) such as Jones day, Hogan dc etc.

If I’m correct, that’s your answer.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by hicrhodus » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:56 pm

Speaking as someone who is currently clerking and will be working in an impact job come the fall, all the people saying you're best off doing a stop in BigLaw are off base. Certainly, people do go to places like the ACLU after working in BigLaw. The reason is that to work somewhere like the ACLU you typically need a few years of experience doing complex civil litigation first. They would prefer that you get that doing public interest work and you will have to explain your PI bona fides if you do work in BigLaw (although this is surmountable). The preferred path is federal clerkship then fancy fellowship then ACLU/LDF/etc. They will also take fed clerkship plus less fancy public interest work (such as direct services) or fed clerkship plus BigLaw (with pro bono experience and a compelling story about why you want to do PI work). But, unlike with AUSA jobs, BigLaw is not required and is not even necessarily viewed favorably. You should also note that while a federal clerkship is almost a requirement for impact litigation shops, it is less helpful for jobs working in the trenches doing direct services. Some potential employers will view it favorably but with others you may have to explain why you wanted to spend a year or two not working with clients.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:23 pm

I am heading into PI (direct services) after two years of clerking. If you learn more about impact lit and really decide that is your goal (and I mean learn a lot more through summers, really understand what the work is like on each level, and determine whether that is a game that you want to play in), then I strongly recommend you clerk because it is a great credential to either get you in the door as a staff atty or make you a strong candidate for fellowships. However, you need to be very careful that your judge is someone well-respected in the impact lit space you are targeting: read their opinions carefully and ask attorneys if the judges you are considering are respected in the community you hope to join.

If you learn over time that impact lit is not your top choice, or you're nervous to put all your eggs in that basket, I strongly urge you not to clerk. I think that clerkships are enormously overrated for anyone with a specialized passion: if you really care about one area of the law, clerkships are going to be a drag. If you don't think that the law in and of itself is interesting, and, instead, like many of the best PI lawyers, think that it is a constructed system entrenching oppression, being a part of that system for a year will hurt you in ways you cannot imagine.

Separately from any of those concerns re: boredom and your conscience, think about where you will be in your life as a person: if you have a partner, close friends, or a family that you care about, clerking is not going to allow you much time to see them. It will be a huge sacrifice: time with the people you love is not guaranteed, and a year is a long time.

It's easy in hindsight to say I wish I hadn't clerked and that I don't think it helped me get my dream PI job next year. I'm not sure, if my present self had told my past self all of these things, that I would have listened. But I wish someone had given me a different perspective: one of the hardest parts about the past two years was feeling like something was wrong with me because I wasn't having the experience of a lifetime, which is basically the only way clerkships were represented at my school.

Finally, I think these forums could use a reminder that even for people who are great fits for clerkships, many, many chambers are objectively abusive workplaces. I know dozens of people presently clerking and who have clerked: most have had middling to bad experiences, but they won't discuss them publicly for fear of repercussions. Some were downright horrific: Kozinski is not an outlier, and many more judges fall somewhere on a spectrum of abuse than somewhere on a spectrum of a respectful workplace. So know going in that it could be an amazing, intellectual experience with a boss who will support you forever, or it could be the worst experience of your life, and you will never be able to discuss it, even if you really want to.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by nixy » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Separately from any of those concerns re: boredom and your conscience, think about where you will be in your life as a person: if you have a partner, close friends, or a family that you care about, clerking is not going to allow you much time to see them. It will be a huge sacrifice: time with the people you love is not guaranteed, and a year is a long time.
This is hugely hugely hugely court/judge-dependent. Both my clerkships left me with much more time to spend with my partner than my current job does.

That said, your point about bad clerkships is fair (and is more likely to lead to situations where you can't spend time with loved ones). And it's true that people so frequently depict it as the opportunity of a lifetime, that if it's not, it is extremely hard to talk about about and I'm sure makes the experience even worse. It's an absolutely real danger and people should consider it. (I do think, though, that it's really really hard to come up with any kind of statements about how many judges are abusive v. not; everyone's dealing with anecdotal evidence.)

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by LivHandsome » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:I am heading into PI (direct services) after two years of clerking. If you learn more about impact lit and really decide that is your goal (and I mean learn a lot more through summers, really understand what the work is like on each level, and determine whether that is a game that you want to play in), then I strongly recommend you clerk because it is a great credential to either get you in the door as a staff atty or make you a strong candidate for fellowships. However, you need to be very careful that your judge is someone well-respected in the impact lit space you are targeting: read their opinions carefully and ask attorneys if the judges you are considering are respected in the community you hope to join.

... [cut for length] ...

Finally, I think these forums could use a reminder that even for people who are great fits for clerkships, many, many chambers are objectively abusive workplaces. I know dozens of people presently clerking and who have clerked: most have had middling to bad experiences, but they won't discuss them publicly for fear of repercussions. Some were downright horrific: Kozinski is not an outlier, and many more judges fall somewhere on a spectrum of abuse than somewhere on a spectrum of a respectful workplace. So know going in that it could be an amazing, intellectual experience with a boss who will support you forever, or it could be the worst experience of your life, and you will never be able to discuss it, even if you really want to.
This is all incredibly helpful. Thanks so much for taking the time--sometimes it's hard to find PI-specific advice.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by LivHandsome » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:25 am

nixy wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Separately from any of those concerns re: boredom and your conscience, think about where you will be in your life as a person: if you have a partner, close friends, or a family that you care about, clerking is not going to allow you much time to see them. It will be a huge sacrifice: time with the people you love is not guaranteed, and a year is a long time.
This is hugely hugely hugely court/judge-dependent. Both my clerkships left me with much more time to spend with my partner than my current job does.

That said, your point about bad clerkships is fair (and is more likely to lead to situations where you can't spend time with loved ones). And it's true that people so frequently depict it as the opportunity of a lifetime, that if it's not, it is extremely hard to talk about about and I'm sure makes the experience even worse. It's an absolutely real danger and people should consider it. (I do think, though, that it's really really hard to come up with any kind of statements about how many judges are abusive v. not; everyone's dealing with anecdotal evidence.)
I've heard horror stories about certain judges, and great things about others. How easy would you say it is to find info (or tea) on what it's like to work with a certain judge, excepting ones like Kozinski that have far-reaching reputations?

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by nixy » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:40 am

Unfortunately I would say it’s probably not that easy. Some schools’ clerkship offices keep in touch enough with alumni that they might know this info, as might profs, but those aren’t really sources to rely on (that is, it might happen that they warn you and if they do I’d take it seriously, but they’d likely under-warn).

The best thing is if you can find former clerks for the judge who are willing to talk to you. They are very very unlikely to say anything directly bad so you will have to read between the lines. Personally, I would take words like “demanding” and “challenging,” if not accompanied with glowing explanations of lots of good qualities and why the clerkship was worth it, as red flags. Inability to find anyone willing to talk to you at all could also be a red flag (but it could just be typical lawyer busy, so hard to say).

You can also google but it’s hard to evaluate some of that as well. For instance I personally don’t think Robing Room is at all helpful because post are usually by annoyed lawyers/parties who appear before a judge, rather than people from chambers, and a clerk’s experience can be very different from the experience of someone appearing in the court. But you might find some discussions similar to the “bad judges to work for” thread on this site.

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Re: What's the deal with clerkships and PI?

Post by LivHandsome » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:41 pm

nixy wrote:Unfortunately I would say it’s probably not that easy. Some schools’ clerkship offices keep in touch enough with alumni that they might know this info, as might profs, but those aren’t really sources to rely on (that is, it might happen that they warn you and if they do I’d take it seriously, but they’d likely under-warn).

The best thing is if you can find former clerks for the judge who are willing to talk to you. They are very very unlikely to say anything directly bad so you will have to read between the lines. Personally, I would take words like “demanding” and “challenging,” if not accompanied with glowing explanations of lots of good qualities and why the clerkship was worth it, as red flags. Inability to find anyone willing to talk to you at all could also be a red flag (but it could just be typical lawyer busy, so hard to say).

You can also google but it’s hard to evaluate some of that as well. For instance I personally don’t think Robing Room is at all helpful because post are usually by annoyed lawyers/parties who appear before a judge, rather than people from chambers, and a clerk’s experience can be very different from the experience of someone appearing in the court. But you might find some discussions similar to the “bad judges to work for” thread on this site.
Noted. I'll be prepared to do some digging.

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