Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want to wo Forum

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Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want to wo

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:41 pm

I'm in a somewhat unique position.. soon to be T14 grad/ below median grades. Through my school's fellowship program and some fortuitous family connections, I've been able to secure an unofficial clerkship with both a Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge (in the middle of nowhere) and a Magistrate Judge in the mid-sized city that I am from and ultimately want to work in.

I know that the magistrate position would give me greater exposure to the actual work of litigators/contact with lawyers in my city, but does the prestige of the circuit ct position make it much more valuable? My goal is simply to join a midsized or biglaw firm in the midsized city I'm from in the midwest. The 'biglaw' firms here are more regional powerhouses than true national biglaw firms, if that helps. Which of these two options give me the better chance of reaching that goal?

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by misterjames » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:51 pm

I would say the circuit court clerkship and it's not even close, but what do you mean by "unofficial clerkship"?
Last edited by QContinuum on Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: De-anoned at poster's request.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by cjk2019 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:57 pm

misterjames wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I would say the circuit court clerkship and it's not even close, but what do you mean by "unofficial clerkship"?
accidental anon

It's unofficial in that it's through my school's fellowship program. They pay me a salary to volunteer for a nonprofit/judge/gov't, rather than that entity. So while both the judges agreed to give me all the same duties and responsibilities as a regular clerk and refer to me as a clerk, it's still unofficial in that sense.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:09 pm

CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by cjk2019 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:13 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:17 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
FWIW, I clerked on one of the districts/circuits “prestigious” enough to attract volunteer clerks (non citizens can’t clerk), and my judge has hired a few and allows them to list “federal law clerk” on their resume. I guess it’ll depend on the judge

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:25 pm

cjk2019 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.
Yeah I understand that the judge may have said this, but I know that if you were sitting across the table from me in a biglaw associate interview scenario and I started to ask about the thing on your resume listed as “term judicial law clerk Usdc” or whatever and then I learned it was actually a school funded position to keep their usnwr rankings up, I would probably decide to ding you on the spot (all other things being equal). I could similarly see this annoying others, like myself, who fedclerked without an asterisk.

I’m not saying don’t list it like that. In fact, you might be better off on balance. I’m just saying the scenario I described above presents a risk you should think about in deciding what to put on your resume.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by cheaptilts » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:37 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
cjk2019 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.
Yeah I understand that the judge may have said this, but I know that if you were sitting across the table from me in a biglaw associate interview scenario and I started to ask about the thing on your resume listed as “term judicial law clerk Usdc” or whatever and then I learned it was actually a school funded position to keep their usnwr rankings up, I would probably decide to ding you on the spot (all other things being equal). I could similarly see this annoying others, like myself, who fedclerked without an asterisk.

I’m not saying don’t list it like that. In fact, you might be better off on balance. I’m just saying the scenario I described above presents a risk you should think about in deciding what to put on your resume.
Which is why OP should list it as the standard “term clerk” or “law clerk” title if OP’s judge so allows.

Exceedingly doubtful that any prospective employer would ask whether a law clerk was paid, even with OP’s grades, because of OP’s school rank. And it’d be a weird question in general.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by cjk2019 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:39 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
cjk2019 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.
Yeah I understand that the judge may have said this, but I know that if you were sitting across the table from me in a biglaw associate interview scenario and I started to ask about the thing on your resume listed as “term judicial law clerk Usdc” or whatever and then I learned it was actually a school funded position to keep their usnwr rankings up, I would probably decide to ding you on the spot (all other things being equal). I could similarly see this annoying others, like myself, who fedclerked without an asterisk.

I’m not saying don’t list it like that. In fact, you might be better off on balance. I’m just saying the scenario I described above presents a risk you should think about in deciding what to put on your resume.

Yes it's certainly a risk, and may backfire at times. I suppose it's better than to have it backfire from a CoA position than a Magistrate position? Either way, I'm much better off doing either of these clerkships than any of my other post-grad options. At worst I feel like it will have given me a good experience and talking points in interviews, if not the true prestige that a non-asterisk clerkship provides.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:45 pm

I figure if the judge tells you you can list it as a regular clerkship then you’re good. You’re getting the same experience as an “official” clerk. To the extent the value in clerking is the actual experience, you will have that. To the extent the value in clerking is only to signal your superior qualifications through the ability to land the clerkship (which I don’t agree with), it’s not like you’re going to be hiding your actual qualifications - employers will see that in your resume/transcript/etc. Clerkship hiring is idiosyncratic anyway so it’s not like landing a clerkship is a guarantee of certain kinds of qualifications.

Of course I can’t say there aren’t any other people hiring who will agree with objctnyrhr, but I don’t think it will be the universal reaction.
Last edited by nixy on Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by cheaptilts » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:46 pm

nixy wrote:I figure if the judge tells you you can list it as a regular clerkship then you’re good. You’re getting the same experience as an “official” clerk. To the extent the value in clerking is the actual experience, you will have that. To the extent the value in clerking is only to signal your superior qualifications through the ability to land the clerkship (which I don’t agree with), it’s not like you’re going to be hiding your actual qualifications - employers will see that in your resume/transcript/etc.

Of course I can’t say there aren’t any other people hiring who will agree with objctnyrhr, but I don’t think it will be the universal reaction.
Co-signed.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by misterjames » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:21 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
cjk2019 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.
Yeah I understand that the judge may have said this, but I know that if you were sitting across the table from me in a biglaw associate interview scenario and I started to ask about the thing on your resume listed as “term judicial law clerk Usdc” or whatever and then I learned it was actually a school funded position to keep their usnwr rankings up, I would probably decide to ding you on the spot (all other things being equal). I could similarly see this annoying others, like myself, who fedclerked without an asterisk.

I’m not saying don’t list it like that. In fact, you might be better off on balance. I’m just saying the scenario I described above presents a risk you should think about in deciding what to put on your resume.
To provide OP an alternative view: The bolded seems like a ridiculous overreaction to me and I would question a firm whose lawyers have such narrow views on work experience, especially if all other things are indeed equal (similar grades in particular).

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:57 pm

misterjames wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
cjk2019 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.
Yeah I understand that the judge may have said this, but I know that if you were sitting across the table from me in a biglaw associate interview scenario and I started to ask about the thing on your resume listed as “term judicial law clerk Usdc” or whatever and then I learned it was actually a school funded position to keep their usnwr rankings up, I would probably decide to ding you on the spot (all other things being equal). I could similarly see this annoying others, like myself, who fedclerked without an asterisk.

I’m not saying don’t list it like that. In fact, you might be better off on balance. I’m just saying the scenario I described above presents a risk you should think about in deciding what to put on your resume.
To provide OP an alternative view: The bolded seems like a ridiculous overreaction to me and I would question a firm whose lawyers have such narrow views on work experience, especially if all other things are indeed equal (similar grades in particular).
Okay sure that was a bit hyperbolic, but I am confident I am not alone in viewing it this way and I have seen people say Fellowship Term Judicial Law Clerk or some form on that (maybe fellowship at the end) on resumes, likely for this very reason.

But most significantly, I think the bolded facet of my post was overlooked by the recent repliers. I was simply pointing out what I believe to be a risk to OP, and I expressly didn’t say that it was necessarily a bad idea to do it anyway...just that it comes with a risk.

To dispute that there is a risk, here, is just wrong. And it’s not necessarily like “were you paid?” I mean who knows how these things ultimately come out, but they sometimes do and it’s a question of whether the recipient of the information will see the lack of a signal that this is not a standard clerkship as somewhat disingenuous or not. It’s quite possible that many wouldn’t, but I promise you that some would.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by lavarman84 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:09 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
cjk2019 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.
Yeah I understand that the judge may have said this, but I know that if you were sitting across the table from me in a biglaw associate interview scenario and I started to ask about the thing on your resume listed as “term judicial law clerk Usdc” or whatever and then I learned it was actually a school funded position to keep their usnwr rankings up, I would probably decide to ding you on the spot (all other things being equal). I could similarly see this annoying others, like myself, who fedclerked without an asterisk.

I’m not saying don’t list it like that. In fact, you might be better off on balance. I’m just saying the scenario I described above presents a risk you should think about in deciding what to put on your resume.
Lately, you've been coming off as a very prestige-obsessed dude. It's not like you're blind to his credentials coming in. If you want him because of the clerkship experience, well, he has it. If you want him because of his credentials, well, you had all the information available to you.
nixy wrote:I figure if the judge tells you you can list it as a regular clerkship then you’re good. You’re getting the same experience as an “official” clerk. To the extent the value in clerking is the actual experience, you will have that. To the extent the value in clerking is only to signal your superior qualifications through the ability to land the clerkship (which I don’t agree with), it’s not like you’re going to be hiding your actual qualifications - employers will see that in your resume/transcript/etc. Clerkship hiring is idiosyncratic anyway so it’s not like landing a clerkship is a guarantee of certain kinds of qualifications.

Of course I can’t say there aren’t any other people hiring who will agree with objctnyrhr, but I don’t think it will be the universal reaction.
As a person who worked extremely hard to get a "non-asterisked" COA clerkship, I'm with Nixy. You're getting the same experience. Your credentials are on the page. If the judge says it's cool, it's cool. I wouldn't knock you for it. What separates you from Preston Pretentious III, who got a COA clerkship despite mediocre credentials because his daddy and a COA judge are close golfing buddies at the country club?

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by LBJ's Hair » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:56 pm

I think OP should do COA and not mention on his resume that he was unpaid unless the judge tells him he has to.

I also think that it's somewhat dishonest to do so; the reason he's doing the COA clerkship is because it's a better credential. it's a better credential because it's supposedly more selective. But an unpaid clerkship is not nearly as "selective" as a paid one; you're not competing with all those hundreds of people for the paid spots. To the people who say the credentials is the same: If it was, then presumably you'd be fine with putting a line on the resume mentioning it's unpaid, no? The fact that you're resisting doing so suggests that it is, in fact, not the same.

Like I said, if I were in OP's shoes, I'd take COA, call myself a clerk, and sleep just fine. But I'd do it because I can, not because I think that it's actually the same thing.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by lavarman84 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:09 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:I think OP should do COA and not mention on his resume that he was unpaid unless the judge tells him he has to.

I also think that it's somewhat dishonest to do so; the reason he's doing the COA clerkship is because it's a better credential. it's a better credential because it's supposedly more selective. But an unpaid clerkship is not nearly as "selective" as a paid one; you're not competing with all those hundreds of people for the paid spots. To the people who say the credentials is the same: If it was, then presumably you'd be fine with putting a line on the resume mentioning it's unpaid, no? The fact that you're resisting doing so suggests that it is, in fact, not the same.

Like I said, if I were in OP's shoes, I'd take COA, call myself a clerk, and sleep just fine. But I'd do it because I can, not because I think that it's actually the same thing.
I don't believe in making misrepresentations of fact on my resume. :wink:

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by cheaptilts » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:14 pm

[edited to remove unnecessary snark]
Last edited by cheaptilts on Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by cheaptilts » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:17 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:I think OP should do COA and not mention on his resume that he was unpaid unless the judge tells him he has to.

I also think that it's somewhat dishonest to do so; the reason he's doing the COA clerkship is because it's a better credential. it's a better credential because it's supposedly more selective. But an unpaid clerkship is not nearly as "selective" as a paid one; you're not competing with all those hundreds of people for the paid spots. To the people who say the credentials is the same: If it was, then presumably you'd be fine with putting a line on the resume mentioning it's unpaid, no? The fact that you're resisting doing so suggests that it is, in fact, not the same.

Like I said, if I were in OP's shoes, I'd take COA, call myself a clerk, and sleep just fine. But I'd do it because I can, not because I think that it's actually the same thing.
I think the point is “why draw attention to something in your resume when you don’t have to.” I think it’d be just as weird to write in a cover letter, “I am currently clerking for Judge Skylark, who offered me the clerkship before I started law school at Duke because she knows my father.”

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:51 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:
cjk2019 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:CoA is TCR.

How are your going to write this on your resume? It sounds more like a fellowship than a clerkship, doesn’t it?
Career Counseling said as long as the Judge allows you to say it was a clerkship, it's ok to put that. If asked more, I'd be happy to explain I used my Fellowship to Clerk for a Judge, etc.
Yeah I understand that the judge may have said this, but I know that if you were sitting across the table from me in a biglaw associate interview scenario and I started to ask about the thing on your resume listed as “term judicial law clerk Usdc” or whatever and then I learned it was actually a school funded position to keep their usnwr rankings up, I would probably decide to ding you on the spot (all other things being equal). I could similarly see this annoying others, like myself, who fedclerked without an asterisk.

I’m not saying don’t list it like that. In fact, you might be better off on balance. I’m just saying the scenario I described above presents a risk you should think about in deciding what to put on your resume.
Lately, you've been coming off as a very prestige-obsessed dude. It's not like you're blind to his credentials coming in. If you want him because of the clerkship experience, well, he has it. If you want him because of his credentials, well, you had all the information available to you.
nixy wrote:I figure if the judge tells you you can list it as a regular clerkship then you’re good. You’re getting the same experience as an “official” clerk. To the extent the value in clerking is the actual experience, you will have that. To the extent the value in clerking is only to signal your superior qualifications through the ability to land the clerkship (which I don’t agree with), it’s not like you’re going to be hiding your actual qualifications - employers will see that in your resume/transcript/etc. Clerkship hiring is idiosyncratic anyway so it’s not like landing a clerkship is a guarantee of certain kinds of qualifications.

Of course I can’t say there aren’t any other people hiring who will agree with objctnyrhr, but I don’t think it will be the universal reaction.
As a person who worked extremely hard to get a "non-asterisked" COA clerkship, I'm with Nixy. You're getting the same experience. Your credentials are on the page. If the judge says it's cool, it's cool. I wouldn't knock you for it. What separates you from Preston Pretentious III, who got a COA clerkship despite mediocre credentials because his daddy and a COA judge are close golfing buddies at the country club?
Quite the burn haha maybe TLS has been rubbing off on me.

Either way, this isn’t a prestige obsessed issue. its a risk/reward question. Just because you personally wouldn’t judge the person in this scenario doesn’t mean nobody would.

Let me ask you this: if you do an unpaid ausa position cause you are able to cause your parents are rich or whatever, is it a risk to leave the volunteer part of it off your resume? Assume same experience as fully paid ausa.

Personally, I think it’s risky. Doesn’t mean I definitely wouldn’t leave it off if it were me after balancing risk reward. but if I did leave it off, I’d do it with knowledge of some inherent risk and awareness that it might rub some people the wrong way if they found out.

That’s my whole point.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:52 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:I think OP should do COA and not mention on his resume that he was unpaid unless the judge tells him he has to.

I also think that it's somewhat dishonest to do so; the reason he's doing the COA clerkship is because it's a better credential. it's a better credential because it's supposedly more selective. But an unpaid clerkship is not nearly as "selective" as a paid one; you're not competing with all those hundreds of people for the paid spots. To the people who say the credentials is the same: If it was, then presumably you'd be fine with putting a line on the resume mentioning it's unpaid, no? The fact that you're resisting doing so suggests that it is, in fact, not the same.

Like I said, if I were in OP's shoes, I'd take COA, call myself a clerk, and sleep just fine. But I'd do it because I can, not because I think that it's actually the same thing.
Well put

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:57 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:I think OP should do COA and not mention on his resume that he was unpaid unless the judge tells him he has to.

I also think that it's somewhat dishonest to do so; the reason he's doing the COA clerkship is because it's a better credential. it's a better credential because it's supposedly more selective. But an unpaid clerkship is not nearly as "selective" as a paid one; you're not competing with all those hundreds of people for the paid spots. To the people who say the credentials is the same: If it was, then presumably you'd be fine with putting a line on the resume mentioning it's unpaid, no? The fact that you're resisting doing so suggests that it is, in fact, not the same.

Like I said, if I were in OP's shoes, I'd take COA, call myself a clerk, and sleep just fine. But I'd do it because I can, not because I think that it's actually the same thing.
I’m “resisting” putting “fellowship-paid clerkship” on a resume to the extent that I think it’s a meaningless distinction. You’re obviously not competing with the same number of applicants, but again, employers will see exactly how competitive you were because they’ll see your grades etc. If you’re median at a T2 and end up with a clerkship this way, employers who don’t hire median T2 grads aren’t going to change their standards just because you got a clerkship. They’ll just figure you had some kind of connection or a prof pulling for you or you fit some whim of the judge’s.

What you’re really representing on a resume is that you *worked as a clerk,* and here, that’s going to be completely true. Now, if the judge reserved only certain activities for the “unofficial” clerk so that they weren’t doing the same job, that should probably be clear somewhere on your resume.

Again it boils down to how the judge wants you to describe yourself. (Or if the school requires you to note that it was fellowship funded - some will do this.) Beyond that, it boils down to what the judge thinks of you. If you did the job and were a competent clerk, it shouldn’t matter how you got the job. If you weren’t, that’s an issue for the judge to address and for you to cope with when looking for jobs and wanting the judge as a reference.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:00 pm

Volunteer AUSAs are SAUSAs. SAUSA is the title you’d put on a resume. Some SAUSAs are detailed from other agencies, but I think the rest of the resume would make clear whether that was the case or not.

There isn’t a different official title for law clerks. They’re just all law clerks.

Again, I realize some people are going to share your take on the unpaid clerks. I just think they shouldn’t.

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by lavarman84 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:03 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:Quite the burn haha maybe TLS has been rubbing off on me.

Either way, this isn’t a prestige obsessed issue. its a risk/reward question. Just because you personally wouldn’t judge the person in this scenario doesn’t mean nobody would.

Let me ask you this: if you do an unpaid ausa position cause you are able to cause your parents are rich or whatever, is it a risk to leave the volunteer part of it off your resume? Assume same experience as fully paid ausa.

Personally, I think it’s risky. Doesn’t mean I definitely wouldn’t leave it off if it were me after balancing risk reward. but if I did leave it off, I’d do it with knowledge of some inherent risk and awareness that it might rub some people the wrong way if they found out.

That’s my whole point.
As far as I understand it, you put that you were a SAUSA. I don't know if you put anything about whether you were paid. There are both paid and unpaid SAUSAs, so if they don't require you to mention that you were unpaid, I wouldn't do it. It really depends on what the office required and what is considered typical.

I'm not saying a volunteer clerkship is the same thing as a paid one (in terms of the prestige factor, not experience). It's not. But I am saying that it is the judge's call, so I wouldn't knock somebody for calling themselves a law clerk if they could. We all engage in puffery on our resumes. As long as you aren't lying, you're good in my book. Nothing is stopping you from seeing how he did in law school and drawing whatever conclusions you will from that. I don't believe him listing himself as a law clerk, with the judge's okay, degrades my COA credential or anything.

But I understand what you're saying. I'm not the only person in the world. Everybody has opinions on this. Honestly, when I read that it was volunteer, I did reconsider whether the COA is better because if OP did have to list that it was unpaid or volunteer, it does lessen the credential. In that scenario, it could be better to use the MJ clerkship to network in OP's preferred market. But if the judge isn't requiring OP to list unpaid or volunteer on the resume, it's worth the risk to me.

As for the burn, my apologies. I wasn't intending to insult you. With this industry, we're all forced to focus on prestige. Would I be clerking at the COA level if I didn't need that prestigious credential to pursue appellate work? I don't know. But I need to get my gold stars to set myself up to do what I want to do.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by objctnyrhnr » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:12 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
objctnyrhnr wrote:Quite the burn haha maybe TLS has been rubbing off on me.

Either way, this isn’t a prestige obsessed issue. its a risk/reward question. Just because you personally wouldn’t judge the person in this scenario doesn’t mean nobody would.

Let me ask you this: if you do an unpaid ausa position cause you are able to cause your parents are rich or whatever, is it a risk to leave the volunteer part of it off your resume? Assume same experience as fully paid ausa.

Personally, I think it’s risky. Doesn’t mean I definitely wouldn’t leave it off if it were me after balancing risk reward. but if I did leave it off, I’d do it with knowledge of some inherent risk and awareness that it might rub some people the wrong way if they found out.

That’s my whole point.
As far as I understand it, you put that you were a SAUSA. I don't know if you put anything about whether you were paid. There are both paid and unpaid SAUSAs, so if they don't require you to mention that you were unpaid, I wouldn't do it. It really depends on what the office required and what is considered typical.

I'm not saying a volunteer clerkship is the same thing as a paid one (in terms of the prestige factor, not experience). It's not. But I am saying that it is the judge's call, so I wouldn't knock somebody for calling themselves a law clerk if they could. We all engage in puffery on our resumes. As long as you aren't lying, you're good in my book. Nothing is stopping you from seeing how he did in law school and drawing whatever conclusions you will from that. I don't believe him listing himself as a law clerk, with the judge's okay, degrades my COA credential or anything.

But I understand what you're saying. I'm not the only person in the world. Everybody has opinions on this. Honestly, when I read that it was volunteer, I did reconsider whether the COA is better because if OP did have to list that it was unpaid or volunteer, it does lessen the credential. In that scenario, it could be better to use the MJ clerkship to network in OP's preferred market. But if the judge isn't requiring OP to list unpaid or volunteer on the resume, it's worth the risk to me.

As for the burn, my apologies. I wasn't intending to insult you. With this industry, we're all forced to focus on prestige. Would I be clerking at the COA level if I didn't need that prestigious credential to pursue appellate work? I don't know. But I need to get my gold stars to set myself up to do what I want to do.
Ah okay that’s my fault. I didn’t realize that unpaid ausas had a different title. Bad example.

No worries on what I characterized as a burn. I was messing around a bit with my response, even if it didn’t come across.

And yes I think TCR (regardless of how one personally feels about it—and it seems like there are two posters on this thread on each side of the issue) is that it’s worth the risk and you should go for COA, OP. Like I said, if I learned the fellowship aspect of it without info about it on resume/CL, I would likely knock you a bit for it. But at the same time in your shoes, I very well might do what it sounds like you are going to do even with awareness of the slight risk.

QContinuum

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Re: Federal Circuit Ct of Appeal Judge Clerkship in middle of nowhere vs Federal Magistrate Judge Clerk in city I want t

Post by QContinuum » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:32 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:Ah okay that’s my fault. I didn’t realize that unpaid ausas had a different title. Bad example.
It's actually not a terrible example. SAUSAs can be paid or unpaid. I don't think there's a need for a particular SAUSA to specified "paid" or "unpaid". Their title is SAUSA. There's nothing deceptive about listing their actual title on their resume.

The same is true here, IMO, for the unpaid clerks. If the judge gives them the same title as the paid clerks, and the funding law school doesn't object, I don't think there's anything deceptive about listing their actual title without specifying "paid" or "unpaid". Employers - here, the judge and the law school - get to decide what titles to grant their employees - here, the unpaid clerk. Employers are free to give unpaid volunteers a different title if they wish. Some employers do this, like with New York and its unpaid Volunteer Assistant Attorneys General. But employers aren't obligated to give unpaid volunteers a different title. New York could, for example, validly decide to retitle its Volunteer Assistant AGs as simply Assistant AGs.
objctnyrhnr wrote:And yes I think TCR (regardless of how one personally feels about it—and it seems like there are two posters on this thread on each side of the issue) is that it’s worth the risk and you should go for COA, OP. Like I said, if I learned the fellowship aspect of it without info about it on resume/CL, I would likely knock you a bit for it. But at the same time in your shoes, I very well might do what it sounds like you are going to do even with awareness of the slight risk.
The other point is, OP's alternative is not a "regular" paid clerkship. The alternative is a volunteer MJ clerkship. Even if the pay thing comes up and OP gets dinged for it, might as well be dinged for being a volunteer COA clerk instead of being dinged for being a volunteer MJ clerk.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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