How is the government shutdown affecting clerks? Forum

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Person1111

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Person1111 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:45 am

QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:Except they never said they’d claim to have worked a full term, and if anyone cared that their term was cut short because of the shutdown - especially if the shutdown actually extends for such an unprecedented length of time - they’re not someone you want to work for anyway.
Please point to where I accused anyone of proposing unethical behavior. I was merely trying to point out the silver lining of continuing to work vs. going on furlough (not that any clerk actually has a choice anyway - either they must work or they must go on furlough, depending on what the judiciary decides).
“I think it would be misleading to say that you were a clerk for a full term when you only worked half the term”
suggests someone was actually going to say that. But in any case, I simply disagree that being able to say you were a “full-term” clerk as opposed to a “short-term” clerk is any kind of silver lining.
Yes, thanks for taking my quote out of context. My full sentence was this: "If the shutdown were to drag on for months (Heaven forbid, but with DJT you never know), and you didn't actually work during the shutdown, I think it'd be misleading to say you were a clerk for a full term when in fact you had only clerked, e.g., half the time." The full sentence makes clear that I was speaking hypothetically. Obviously, the shutdown hasn't dragged on for months (at least not yet), and also clerks are working (at least for now).

If your assertion is that in that hypothetical situation described above, one should claim to have "worked" during multiple months when they didn't actually do any work, I strongly disagree. At a minimum, in that hypothetical situation, there should be a notation reflecting the months spent on furlough, e.g., Clerkship Sept. 2018 - Aug. 2019 (furloughed due to government shutdown Jan. - May 2019).
I suppose you also favor "Associate, Sept. 2014 - Jan. 2019 (on maternity leave Jan. 2018 - June 2018)"

nixy

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by nixy » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:21 am

QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
nixy wrote:Except they never said they’d claim to have worked a full term, and if anyone cared that their term was cut short because of the shutdown - especially if the shutdown actually extends for such an unprecedented length of time - they’re not someone you want to work for anyway.
Please point to where I accused anyone of proposing unethical behavior. I was merely trying to point out the silver lining of continuing to work vs. going on furlough (not that any clerk actually has a choice anyway - either they must work or they must go on furlough, depending on what the judiciary decides).
“I think it would be misleading to say that you were a clerk for a full term when you only worked half the term”
suggests someone was actually going to say that. But in any case, I simply disagree that being able to say you were a “full-term” clerk as opposed to a “short-term” clerk is any kind of silver lining.
Yes, thanks for taking my quote out of context. My full sentence was this: "If the shutdown were to drag on for months (Heaven forbid, but with DJT you never know), and you didn't actually work during the shutdown, I think it'd be misleading to say you were a clerk for a full term when in fact you had only clerked, e.g., half the time." The full sentence makes clear that I was speaking hypothetically. Obviously, the shutdown hasn't dragged on for months (at least not yet), and also clerks are working (at least for now).

If your assertion is that in that hypothetical situation described above, one should claim to have "worked" during multiple months when they didn't actually do any work, I strongly disagree. At a minimum, in that hypothetical situation, there should be a notation reflecting the months spent on furlough, e.g., Clerkship Sept. 2018 - Aug. 2019 (furloughed due to government shutdown Jan. - May 2019).
Now *you’re* saying something *I* never said - that one should claim to have worked during multiple months. I was responding to your hypothetical, which you were the only person to raise (and the rest of your sentence doesn’t change the meaning of the portion I quoted. Of course you were speaking hypothetically, but there’s no point in even raising the hypothetical if if couldn’t ever happen - raising it presupposes that *under the hypothetical conditons* someone might make that claim). I wasn’t insulting your ethics.

Sure, if the shutdown continues someone should note that on their resume. Not having to do that doesn’t make up for working without pay. That is the only point I was making.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:55 am

If we start missing paychecks, I honestly don't know how long I can go without getting paid. If the shutdown lasts several more weeks I will have to make money somehow. What are we supposed to do?

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:31 pm

Another district court clerk adding a data point:

Similar to whats been said, we will be recieving a full paycheck on the 25th, but we are also supposed to recieve a half pay check on Feb 8th - which seems different from what other posters have stated.

We are also still reviewing applicants for the 19-20 term.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:If we start missing paychecks, I honestly don't know how long I can go without getting paid. If the shutdown lasts several more weeks I will have to make money somehow. What are we supposed to do?
Same...even with backpay, if this lasts past two months it will be trouble. And technically we can't accept other work while we're employed ethically...and we can't even say anything because it would be "political" so we just have to grin and bear it publicly. It's starting to get to me already.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:00 pm

Anecdotally, I have heard of a few circuit judges (including mine) offering their clerks monthly 0% loans in the amount of their monthly take-home pay. Classy move, but I assume it also has the added benefit of allowing the judge to require all of his clerks to work through an indefinite shutdown without feeling bad.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by QContinuum » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:07 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:
QContinuum wrote:Yes, thanks for taking my quote out of context. My full sentence was this: "If the shutdown were to drag on for months (Heaven forbid, but with DJT you never know), and you didn't actually work during the shutdown, I think it'd be misleading to say you were a clerk for a full term when in fact you had only clerked, e.g., half the time." The full sentence makes clear that I was speaking hypothetically. Obviously, the shutdown hasn't dragged on for months (at least not yet), and also clerks are working (at least for now).

If your assertion is that in that hypothetical situation described above, one should claim to have "worked" during multiple months when they didn't actually do any work, I strongly disagree. At a minimum, in that hypothetical situation, there should be a notation reflecting the months spent on furlough, e.g., Clerkship Sept. 2018 - Aug. 2019 (furloughed due to government shutdown Jan. - May 2019).
I suppose you also favor "Associate, Sept. 2014 - Jan. 2019 (on maternity leave Jan. 2018 - June 2018)"
If one was an associate from Sept. 2018 - Aug. 2019, and took maternity leave from Jan. 2019 - June 2019, I absolutely think that should be noted. Not necessarily as maternity leave, but certainly as leave (or "personal" leave or "medical" leave, whatever the person is most comfortable with). Because the associate then wouldn't have one year of experience, but only a half year of experience, which is a significant difference.

In contrast, taking leave (for any reason, whether parental, medical, military, jury service...) during a multi-year position as you reference above doesn't need to be noted, because it's expected that folks will take vacation and leave while being employed. It only becomes critical to note if the leave is so long that it constitutes a large fraction of one's employment.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Npret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:31 pm

I feel for anyone who has to work without pay. I’m not sure how that’s legal, though I haven’t researched it. Even working for an IOU is complete nonsense.

I would like to know how they can legally force people to work and refuse to pay them. Just seems very wrong to me. Maybe it’s because you could quit anytime you aren’t really being forced to work?

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Npret » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:24 pm

I am not the only one wondering this as there are some law suits from air traffic controllers about being forced to work without pay.

https://www.natca.org/index.php/newsroo ... tro-motion

The judge denied the TRO because it would cause chaos (that’s what reports say I haven’t read it) but ordered expedited briefing for the preliminary injunction.

I’m not sure what other suits have been filed.

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nixy

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by nixy » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:23 pm

This article talks about some more of the suits. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... 41f62350f0

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:19 pm

Does anyone know of court employees (clerks or otherwise) planning to sue or walk off jobs? What would be authority for that? Obviously not FLSA,NLRA not applicable. 13th I guess could be. But what would that even look like? And then there's the separation of powers argument: if the exec and leg branches can effectively hobble courts from their check and balance function (judges will get paid but any else, incl security, probation, marshals, clerks, translators, experts, stenographers, IT won't) isn't that a bigger issue? Is there a colorable claim that those 2 branches are preventing the Courts from exerising their constitutional duty by refusing to consider funding them? This is all just insane and I worry that, instead of raising these issues, people will just quietly get other jobs which makes it even harder for the already severely under-staffed courts to function in the long-term.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Barnabyboom » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:23 pm

The separation of powers argument applies equally to the executive branch, and it's never stopped a shutdown before.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:58 pm

Anyone in the first year of a 2-year clerkship get the green light to look for other jobs yet? My judge hasn't brought it up yet but I can't afford to go unpaid for a long and indefinite period of time but I don't want to discuss my finances with my boss.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by flyoverlawclerk47 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anyone in the first year of a 2-year clerkship get the green light to look for other jobs yet? My judge hasn't brought it up yet but I can't afford to go unpaid for a long and indefinite period of time but I don't want to discuss my finances with my boss.
I am, and my judge has said that she will give me the green light if the shutdown continues for an extended period of time.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:59 pm

I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.
This seems overly dramatic. There are tons of banks offering low interest rate loans to bridge the gap for federal employees. With the promise of back pay, are you really saying that you "cant survive financially" accruing interest on a 3-5% loan for a few months (up to, *gasp*, a year)? You did exactly that for 3 years in law school without the promise of getting that money back. Don't screw over your judge and damage your career by pulling out of a clerkship that you worked so hard to get.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by HillandHollow » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.
This seems overly dramatic. There are tons of banks offering low interest rate loans to bridge the gap for federal employees. With the promise of back pay, are you really saying that you "cant survive financially" accruing interest on a 3-5% loan for a few months (up to, *gasp*, a year)? You did exactly that for 3 years in law school without the promise of getting that money back. Don't screw over your judge and damage your career by pulling out of a clerkship that you worked so hard to get.
I know that it is being reported that "tons of banks" are offering these loans, but I haven't seen that to be true. I have seen a handful of small credit unions making such offers available to their members only, and I have yet to see one offer a loan of greater than $3,000. Additionally, a number are time-limited to tiny amounts of time (60 days or so). Cite your sources if you have seen something else, please.

ETA:
See https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/18/here-ar ... kers-.html for examples

ETA2: Found one that is near-zero APR, up to $6,000, for as long as 12 months: https://www.bankrate.com/banking/us-ban ... ssistance/ ... tell me if you see something greater or for longer?

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.
This seems overly dramatic. There are tons of banks offering low interest rate loans to bridge the gap for federal employees. With the promise of back pay, are you really saying that you "cant survive financially" accruing interest on a 3-5% loan for a few months (up to, *gasp*, a year)? You did exactly that for 3 years in law school without the promise of getting that money back. Don't screw over your judge and damage your career by pulling out of a clerkship that you worked so hard to get.
I'm on the first year of two year and I feel similar to the first poster above, and I'm having the same exact stress. I'm also at a specialty fed court and I've been on furlough since close to the beginning of this shutdown. I already have school debt and I don't want to leverage up further just to pay my bills for an INDEFINITE period of time. I'm also am sweating over the possibility of sitting on my couch for months or a year and having a huge experience gap. Nobody is a winner in this situation and the notion that someone's judge would damage their clerk's career because they want to pay their damn bills seems a bit drastic, no?

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Barrred » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:18 pm

HillandHollow wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.
This seems overly dramatic. There are tons of banks offering low interest rate loans to bridge the gap for federal employees. With the promise of back pay, are you really saying that you "cant survive financially" accruing interest on a 3-5% loan for a few months (up to, *gasp*, a year)? You did exactly that for 3 years in law school without the promise of getting that money back. Don't screw over your judge and damage your career by pulling out of a clerkship that you worked so hard to get.
I know that it is being reported that "tons of banks" are offering these loans, but I haven't seen that to be true. I have seen a handful of small credit unions making such offers available to their members only, and I have yet to see one offer a loan of greater than $3,000. Additionally, a number are time-limited to tiny amounts of time (60 days or so). Cite your sources if you have seen something else, please.

ETA:
See https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/18/here-ar ... kers-.html for examples

ETA2: Found one that is near-zero APR, up to $6,000, for as long as 12 months: https://www.bankrate.com/banking/us-ban ... ssistance/ ... tell me if you see something greater or for longer?
See https://www.finder.com/loans-for-furloughed-employees for some examples.

The Treasury Department Federal Credit Union was the only one I could find that accepts all members of the U.S. Courts (http://www.tdfcu.org/), and they have a special one month salary advance for government employees affected by the shutdown, and then they offer a $20,000 loan at 9% interest.

I know that a number of individual district courts/circuits have membership eligibility with various credit unions either through geographic location or agreements between the court units and the credit union, so clerks should check their individual eligibility and see what kind of shutdown assistance loan products exist at those credit unions.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by QContinuum » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.
This seems overly dramatic. There are tons of banks offering low interest rate loans to bridge the gap for federal employees. With the promise of back pay, are you really saying that you "cant survive financially" accruing interest on a 3-5% loan for a few months (up to, *gasp*, a year)? You did exactly that for 3 years in law school without the promise of getting that money back. Don't screw over your judge and damage your career by pulling out of a clerkship that you worked so hard to get.
That poster is not going to "damage [their] career by pulling out of [their] clerkship" - they have already consulted with their judge and the judge has said he understands his clerk's financial situation. This does not sound like an a-hole who's going to turn around and stab OP in the back.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by nixy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.
This seems overly dramatic. There are tons of banks offering low interest rate loans to bridge the gap for federal employees. With the promise of back pay, are you really saying that you "cant survive financially" accruing interest on a 3-5% loan for a few months (up to, *gasp*, a year)? You did exactly that for 3 years in law school without the promise of getting that money back. Don't screw over your judge and damage your career by pulling out of a clerkship that you worked so hard to get.
I don’t agree with this at all. You know going into law school that it costs tuition, you take out loans to pay, and they have varying rates of interest. While a clerkship is an unusual kind of job, it’s a JOB. You agree to do it for pay. While you get a lot of non-pay benefits (which is why people who could be making $190k at a firm will clerk for $65k), that is not at all the same as saying a clerk should be willing to work without pay, and should be willing to *pay interest* for the privilege. (And yes, a year is *gasp* territory, not the least bc if this goes on for a year, the majority of federal employees are going to be SCREWED. Like fuck that.)

Thankfully as already pointed out, this anon’s judge sounds reasonable.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by Npret » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:55 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I told my judge that--backpay or not--I can't survive financially without biweekly pay if the shutdown goes on for an extended period of time and will likely have to go back to my firm if this continues into March. He said he understood and he is fearful it may continue into late spring. I fought so hard for this clerkship and the thought of leaving early and leaving my judge in the lurch is killing me. I truly don't know what to do.
This seems overly dramatic. There are tons of banks offering low interest rate loans to bridge the gap for federal employees. With the promise of back pay, are you really saying that you "cant survive financially" accruing interest on a 3-5% loan for a few months (up to, *gasp*, a year)? You did exactly that for 3 years in law school without the promise of getting that money back. Don't screw over your judge and damage your career by pulling out of a clerkship that you worked so hard to get.
That poster is not going to "damage [their] career by pulling out of [their] clerkship" - they have already consulted with their judge and the judge has said he understands his clerk's financial situation. This does not sound like an a-hole who's going to turn around and stab OP in the back.
I agree. No one should be expected to work for free and it’s even more foolish to go into debt so you can do your job. I think anyone who can exit gracefully to a firm should do so. I don’t see crises being resolved soon. I don’t see leaving for a paying job causing any issue with your career in the future.

Trying to tell people they need to go into debt just o live, when they have chances of returning to a high paying job, is beyond ridiculous. Independently wealthy people or people with working spouses so they can at least pay their bills may be in a different situation.

I’m a little surprised that people aren’t in the streets demanding the government get to a deal but I think there are powerful political reasons why more people aren’t pressuring their representatives to fix this shutdown.

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Re: How is the government shutdown affecting clerks?

Post by wwwcol » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Does anyone know of court employees (clerks or otherwise) planning to sue or walk off jobs? What would be authority for that? Obviously not FLSA,NLRA not applicable. 13th I guess could be. But what would that even look like? And then there's the separation of powers argument: if the exec and leg branches can effectively hobble courts from their check and balance function (judges will get paid but any else, incl security, probation, marshals, clerks, translators, experts, stenographers, IT won't) isn't that a bigger issue? Is there a colorable claim that those 2 branches are preventing the Courts from exerising their constitutional duty by refusing to consider funding them? This is all just insane and I worry that, instead of raising these issues, people will just quietly get other jobs which makes it even harder for the already severely under-staffed courts to function in the long-term.
Pardon my ignorance but why wouldn’t the FLSA minimum-wage provisions apply? Clerks are excepted from FLSA overtime coverage but not from the minimum-wage provision, no?

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