Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up? Forum
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are sharing sensitive information about clerkship applications and clerkship hiring. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are sharing sensitive information about clerkship applications and clerkship hiring. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Hi TLS - looking for advice. I have struck out of the clerkship application process for last two years. Am not sure what I did/am doing wrong but at this point am ready to give up. While I didn't apply to every geographic location, I did do many major markets. Figured I would see if TLS had any ideas -- I'm looking for a District clerkship. I generally am a strong interviewer, as well, but really haven't even gotten any interview bites either except for one-off magistrate judge.
About me:
T14 Graduate
Top 5% of class
V10 firm in major market
Recommenders: Three strong ones, but not professors who have great connections with judiciary
Law Review: none.
I suspect it is either the lack of law review or the fact that I don't have anything pulling me out of the pile. But, still, based on my conversations with past clerks, seems like every application is reviewed (albeit quickly).
About me:
T14 Graduate
Top 5% of class
V10 firm in major market
Recommenders: Three strong ones, but not professors who have great connections with judiciary
Law Review: none.
I suspect it is either the lack of law review or the fact that I don't have anything pulling me out of the pile. But, still, based on my conversations with past clerks, seems like every application is reviewed (albeit quickly).
-
- Posts: 848
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:17 pm
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
1. How many judges have you applied to + interviews have you done? If you're 0/4, that's not at all unusual even for a very strong applicant.
2. Does your resume *say* you're top 5%, or have you left it to the clerks to infer it? If your school has an unusual grading system, the clerks reviewing may not realize how you stack up relative to your class.
2. Does your resume *say* you're top 5%, or have you left it to the clerks to infer it? If your school has an unusual grading system, the clerks reviewing may not realize how you stack up relative to your class.
-
- Posts: 4451
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:58 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
I would also want to know how many judges you applied to, because it might just be a function of numbers. You generally have the qualifications - lack of law review might hurt you if you don't have other extensive writing experience, but there are definitely judges who don't care. It's probably a combo of judges who do care about law review and not getting pulled out of the pile, since there are just so many strong candidates. Do you work for any former clerks? Can you cultivate them and ask about applying to their judges? Can you look for judges who share an alma mater with you and/or other kinds of background? (From your home town, worked in a job you worked in, that kind of thing.)
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Another possibility is that your writing sample isn't very good/polished. In my years as a career clerk, I've been appalled at the large number of terrible, error-ridden writing samples that I've seen from people who have good grades from supposedly top schools. Before giving up, you might want to sit down and have a very critical look at your writing sample again to see if that's something that could be improved, especially since your lack of law review is already a strike against you in that area.
-
- Posts: 3594
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:52 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Caveat to the above: I'm pretty sure you don't need Law Review to clerk on a district court from a T14 (especially with top 5% grades), but it's typical/expected for applicants to be on at least a secondary journal. If OP's not on any journal at all, that may well be a yellow flag, which may be enough to doom them (given the number of very well-qualified candidates) absent a personal connection, namely, an enthusiastic recommender with judiciary ties who's willing to pick up the phone and call on OP's behalf.nixy wrote:I would also want to know how many judges you applied to, because it might just be a function of numbers. You generally have the qualifications - lack of law review might hurt you if you don't have other extensive writing experience, but there are definitely judges who don't care. It's probably a combo of judges who do care about law review and not getting pulled out of the pile, since there are just so many strong candidates. Do you work for any former clerks? Can you cultivate them and ask about applying to their judges? Can you look for judges who share an alma mater with you and/or other kinds of background? (From your home town, worked in a job you worked in, that kind of thing.)
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
- HillandHollow
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:43 pm
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
You have mentioned some impressive academic credentials, but nothing else. In our review of candidates, we first looked for qualifications (you have them), then for possible interest-factor or fit. Is the person smart and curious? Is the person someone I want to spend a lot of time around? Will this person gel with the chambers' style? Etc etc etc. Are you sure you are as strong an interviewer as you think?
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Thank you all for the responses. I have submitted around 15 applications. And I shared a similar suspicion re: writing sample but after reviewing it a hundred times didn't see any typos/mistakes. As for the other responses, I did not do any secondary journal, which is my theory for why I am not competitive here. I actually got sick right after my 1L exams and honestly wasn't at all with it for write on (and didn't appreciate the significance of it).
And its hard to assess how good an interviewer you are, but its not something I've really had problems with in my life. Again, the issue for me is I'm not even getting the interview invitations. Oh well, I guess.
And its hard to assess how good an interviewer you are, but its not something I've really had problems with in my life. Again, the issue for me is I'm not even getting the interview invitations. Oh well, I guess.
-
- Posts: 3594
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:52 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Do you know any partners with judiciary ties? And are your current recommenders picking up the phone and calling? You basically need more than just a "paper" LoR to get out of the pile, especially with your lack of journal.Anonymous User wrote:Thank you all for the responses. I have submitted around 15 applications. And I shared a similar suspicion re: writing sample but after reviewing it a hundred times didn't see any typos/mistakes. As for the other responses, I did not do any secondary journal, which is my theory for why I am not competitive here. I actually got sick right after my 1L exams and honestly wasn't at all with it for write on (and didn't appreciate the significance of it).
And its hard to assess how good an interviewer you are, but its not something I've really had problems with in my life. Again, the issue for me is I'm not even getting the interview invitations. Oh well, I guess.
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Some, but most are with judges who are no longer on the bench/not in my targets.
Interesting regarding phone calls -- do they really help that much even if the judge doesn't have a relationship with the professor? If so, I will definitely ask. I think at least one of my professors will be willing.
Really appreciate the advice all.
Interesting regarding phone calls -- do they really help that much even if the judge doesn't have a relationship with the professor? If so, I will definitely ask. I think at least one of my professors will be willing.
Really appreciate the advice all.
-
- Posts: 4451
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:58 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
15 is a TINY number of applications. Super super tiny. It’s not uncommon (even for strong candidates) to apply to upwards of 100+ judges. So there is really no way to assess the strength of your application based on 15 judges - it’s just way to small a number to be representative of anything. It could absolutely just be luck of the draw that those 15 judges happened to find something more interesting about other candidates, and that there are other judges out there who’d think you’re great.
That said, there’s no reason you should send out more applications if those are genuinely the other judges you’re interested in. But keep in mind that you’re significantly narrowing your chances by such a small application pool.
I have definitely seen judges who don’t care about journal, but mostly as long as there’s some other indication of writing ability, like moot court or publications. So if you don’t have something like that you might consider trying to write something for your firm or bar association or such (or an actual journal if you have the time/inclination).
Re: calls, I think some judges aren’t interested in calls from people they don’t know, but some are, so I think overall if a prof is willing, it can help.
That said, there’s no reason you should send out more applications if those are genuinely the other judges you’re interested in. But keep in mind that you’re significantly narrowing your chances by such a small application pool.
I have definitely seen judges who don’t care about journal, but mostly as long as there’s some other indication of writing ability, like moot court or publications. So if you don’t have something like that you might consider trying to write something for your firm or bar association or such (or an actual journal if you have the time/inclination).
Re: calls, I think some judges aren’t interested in calls from people they don’t know, but some are, so I think overall if a prof is willing, it can help.
-
- Posts: 8504
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:01 pm
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Not getting an interview after submitting only 15 applications isn't really "striking out." It's a numbers game. If you're submitting to competitive judges, they have a bunch of people with similar credentials to yours. If you only want to work for a small group of judges (based on geography or some other reason), that's fine. But that's likely why you're not having success.Anonymous User wrote:Thank you all for the responses. I have submitted around 15 applications. And I shared a similar suspicion re: writing sample but after reviewing it a hundred times didn't see any typos/mistakes. As for the other responses, I did not do any secondary journal, which is my theory for why I am not competitive here. I actually got sick right after my 1L exams and honestly wasn't at all with it for write on (and didn't appreciate the significance of it).
And its hard to assess how good an interviewer you are, but its not something I've really had problems with in my life. Again, the issue for me is I'm not even getting the interview invitations. Oh well, I guess.
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
I have slightly lower academic stats than you from a T14, applied to about 40-50 judges per round, and ended up with a DCT clerkship. You need to apply to an enormous number of judges before you even get a hit. For me it was maybe one interview per 20-30 applications.
nixy wrote:15 is a TINY number of applications. Super super tiny. It’s not uncommon (even for strong candidates) to apply to upwards of 100+ judges. So there is really no way to assess the strength of your application based on 15 judges - it’s just way to small a number to be representative of anything. It could absolutely just be luck of the draw that those 15 judges happened to find something more interesting about other candidates, and that there are other judges out there who’d think you’re great.
That said, there’s no reason you should send out more applications if those are genuinely the other judges you’re interested in. But keep in mind that you’re significantly narrowing your chances by such a small application pool.
I have definitely seen judges who don’t care about journal, but mostly as long as there’s some other indication of writing ability, like moot court or publications. So if you don’t have something like that you might consider trying to write something for your firm or bar association or such (or an actual journal if you have the time/inclination).
Re: calls, I think some judges aren’t interested in calls from people they don’t know, but some are, so I think overall if a prof is willing, it can help.
- HillandHollow
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:43 pm
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
I meant does your resume/application demonstrate that you are more than just some good grades? There will be plenty of academically/professionally qualified applicants. The ones who got calls for interviews (at least with my judge) were the ones who had a plus factor of personality/whatever.Anonymous User wrote:Thank you all for the responses. I have submitted around 15 applications. And I shared a similar suspicion re: writing sample but after reviewing it a hundred times didn't see any typos/mistakes. As for the other responses, I did not do any secondary journal, which is my theory for why I am not competitive here. I actually got sick right after my 1L exams and honestly wasn't at all with it for write on (and didn't appreciate the significance of it).
And its hard to assess how good an interviewer you are, but its not something I've really had problems with in my life. Again, the issue for me is I'm not even getting the interview invitations. Oh well, I guess.
Register now!
Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.
It's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:54 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Echo what everyone else has said: 15 applications is nothing. It isn't even a thimbleful. So I wouldn't interpret these results as a lack of success.
Clerkship hiring, more than anything else, is a combination numbers game/connections lottery/lightning strike--at least, it is for everybody but the absolutely top candidates (who, it so happens, tend to be overrepresented in stories about clerkship hiring). The process rewards both perseverance and shamelessness. "Perseverance," in this context, is defined as applying extremely broadly and not assuming that one round is all that it will take. "Shamelessness" means taking advantage of connections where you have them.
Right now, you really need to increase your numbers. Why just 15 judges? If one judge on a particular court appeals to you, apply to all of her colleagues too.
Clerkship hiring, more than anything else, is a combination numbers game/connections lottery/lightning strike--at least, it is for everybody but the absolutely top candidates (who, it so happens, tend to be overrepresented in stories about clerkship hiring). The process rewards both perseverance and shamelessness. "Perseverance," in this context, is defined as applying extremely broadly and not assuming that one round is all that it will take. "Shamelessness" means taking advantage of connections where you have them.
Right now, you really need to increase your numbers. Why just 15 judges? If one judge on a particular court appeals to you, apply to all of her colleagues too.
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Perhaps I'm piling on here, but echoing the response of apply more.
Don't know your geographic constraints, but you should apply to most/every judge in the regions you're interested in. Interested in NY? Apply to the ~40 SDNY judges, ~25 EDNY judges, and the ~10 D NJ judges in Newark.
Spend a minute or two of research on each, and exclude any that you know you would not get along with. But generally, political affiliation isn't a good enough reason to exclude a judge -- 98% of the cases won't be all that political.
It's a numbers game. Each judge has ~3 slots, may interview 5 to 15 people, and receives hundreds of applications. You're academically qualified, but it's a matter of getting noticed. Networking with former clerks helps. Professor calls help. But so does simply applying to enough judges that, statistically, someone is likely to notice you.
I was slightly above median at HLS, on HLR, and applied to over 100 judges -- and clerked in SDNY and a COA.
Don't know your geographic constraints, but you should apply to most/every judge in the regions you're interested in. Interested in NY? Apply to the ~40 SDNY judges, ~25 EDNY judges, and the ~10 D NJ judges in Newark.
Spend a minute or two of research on each, and exclude any that you know you would not get along with. But generally, political affiliation isn't a good enough reason to exclude a judge -- 98% of the cases won't be all that political.
It's a numbers game. Each judge has ~3 slots, may interview 5 to 15 people, and receives hundreds of applications. You're academically qualified, but it's a matter of getting noticed. Networking with former clerks helps. Professor calls help. But so does simply applying to enough judges that, statistically, someone is likely to notice you.
I was slightly above median at HLS, on HLR, and applied to over 100 judges -- and clerked in SDNY and a COA.
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
You have no excuse for not getting a clerkship. Give up!? With those credentials? *Eye roll*Anonymous User wrote:Hi TLS - looking for advice. I have struck out of the clerkship application process for last two years. Am not sure what I did/am doing wrong but at this point am ready to give up. While I didn't apply to every geographic location, I did do many major markets. Figured I would see if TLS had any ideas -- I'm looking for a District clerkship. I generally am a strong interviewer, as well, but really haven't even gotten any interview bites either except for one-off magistrate judge.
About me:
T14 Graduate
Top 5% of class
V10 firm in major market
Recommenders: Three strong ones, but not professors who have great connections with judiciary
Law Review: none.
I suspect it is either the lack of law review or the fact that I don't have anything pulling me out of the pile. But, still, based on my conversations with past clerks, seems like every application is reviewed (albeit quickly).
I have lesser credentials than you and clerked 2x, one of which was CA2 (though, I had L Review). (Currently doing my 2nd clerkship, hence the anon.) I echo that it is a numbers game, but I was fairly picky and only applied to big cities. Things you MUST do:
1) Do NOT apply on OSCAR unless the Judge says something to the effect of "I only take OSCAR applications"-- mail physical envelopes. I was striking out, decided to mail paper applications, and got 3 COA interviews out of it. Mailing it ensures that they are actually read. Also, people love getting letters. This is the #1 thing you can do.
2) Take a Friday, and call your top 30 judges' Chambers (yes, on the phone) and ask (a) if they are full for X/Y years, (b) if they are accepting applications and (c) how they should be submitted and if it is ok to mail it. Next Friday, do it for numbers 31-60 on the list. If the secretary waffles a bit, ask if there is a clerk in charge of clerkship hiring you can talk to. Be politely aggressive.
3) Write UNIQUE cover letters for each judge. Contrary to what TLS says (that it's a function of grades alone) both judges I worked for cared about cover letters a TON. Explain why you're different. Explain why that Judge is awesome.
4) Go to your clerkship office. Find people who are currently clerking. Email them and ask the same questions from #2, above. Name drop the clerkship person by saying "Blah blah gave me your name and I thought I'd email you." If I ever got an email like that, I'd pull them from the pile. Can't hurt.
5) Ask professors these questions. Strategize with them. Ask for "guidance" from them (people love guiding people).
It's a function of effort and luck. And the more effort you put in, the more chances you have to get lucky. I spent hundreds of hours trying to force my way in. But "giving up," with your credentials, after applying to 15 judges, is such a joke. Sorry if I am being too blunt, but I just want you to know how ridiculous that sounds.
- HillandHollow
- Posts: 190
- Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:43 pm
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Doing this step would have gotten you nixed in my chambers, because all of that information was available on our OSCAR post. Please review the OSCAR post before calling and demonstrating that you have not done so.Anonymous User wrote:
2) Take a Friday, and call your top 30 judges' Chambers (yes, on the phone) and ask (a) if they are full for X/Y years, (b) if they are accepting applications and (c) how they should be submitted and if it is ok to mail it. Next Friday, do it for numbers 31-60 on the list. If the secretary waffles a bit, ask if there is a clerk in charge of clerkship hiring you can talk to. Be politely aggressive.
Get unlimited access to all forums and topics
Register now!
I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:59 pm
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
YMMV but I disagree with the above advice. Do NOT be aggressive with anyone in chambers. "Polite" or not, giving the JA hard time is a VERY bad idea (also, its a JA-- not a secretary). I'm sure this varies by chambers, but if the JA said an unkind word about an applicant in my judge's chambers, that application would be thrown in the trash immediately. The JA is the cornerstone of chambers. You are just some random person asking for a job.Anonymous User wrote: 2) Take a Friday, and call your top 30 judges' Chambers (yes, on the phone) and ask (a) if they are full for X/Y years, (b) if they are accepting applications and (c) how they should be submitted and if it is ok to mail it. Next Friday, do it for numbers 31-60 on the list. If the secretary waffles a bit, ask if there is a clerk in charge of clerkship hiring you can talk to. Be politely aggressive.
3) Write UNIQUE cover letters for each judge. Contrary to what TLS says (that it's a function of grades alone) both judges I worked for cared about cover letters a TON. Explain why you're different. Explain why that Judge is awesome.
As to the cover letters, I think writing unique cover letters for each judge would end up being a waste of time. If you have a reason that you really want to clerk for a certain judge, absolutely put that in the letter. But you probably will not have a compelling reason to clerk for every judge you apply to. And, as has been mentioned, you need to apply to a lot more judges. Rather than spending hours and hours researching judges, I think your time would be better spent sending more applications.
-
- Posts: 428443
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: Striking Out on Clerkships -- Any Tips before Giving Up?
Didn't read the above responses, but you MUST apply to more judges (I'd say 100). Also consider having professors contact your top choice judges on your behalf.
Since you've graduated, if you have friends who are clerking/have clerked for judges, you can reach out to them to "learn about their clerkship experience" and see if anything flows from those conversations.
Since you've graduated, if you have friends who are clerking/have clerked for judges, you can reach out to them to "learn about their clerkship experience" and see if anything flows from those conversations.
Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.
Register now, it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login