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Lavitz wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:What's the protocol in sending apps to judges for the 2019-2020 term even though they are formally only open for 2018?

Unless they specifically say on OSCAR not to mail paper apps, you can always mail paper apps for 2019-20 and see what happens. But if you want to make sure you're not wasting your time or the judge's time, you can call chambers first and ask if they'd consider apps for 2019. It takes like 30 seconds.

"Hi, I'm calling to ask whether Judge X is accepting clerkship applications for the 2019-20 term."
"Yes, 2019 is the next term we're considering. Mail/e-mail/use the 2018-19 OSCAR opening to submit an application." or "No, it's too early. We're only looking at 2018 right now."
"Ok, thanks. Have a nice day."

Honestly, just send an application. I never minded (or even necessarily noticed) an extra application, but all the calls to chambers got pretty irritating.

Bump for the new year and increasingly lengthy OSCAR notification emails. Anyone got buzz on DDC hiring? I know Bates is full already but I think he's the only one.

Tatel and Wilkins (CADC) are done for 2019-20.

Some activity for this term in my district. Think ND-Cal/CD-Cal. Two interviews in the last month.

Must be NDCal. Central doesn't hire that far out. I know Gilliam actually hired for 19-20 last summer.

So does this mean law school students without post law school experience are precluded from clerking for most popular judges now? If they're starting to hire for 2020 now, and the class of 2020 hasn't even started law school, that means there aren't any law students available to hire right after law school. Even judges that are a bit "behind" would have to hire a second-semester 1L, let alone a rising 2L. But that would mean hiring someone who might not be the EIC of law review!! And judges who want to hire 3 years in advance just to get the "best" candidate the judge next door doesn't seem to have too big of egos to risk that. jk

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:So does this mean law school students without post law school experience are precluded from clerking for most popular judges now? If they're starting to hire for 2020 now, and the class of 2020 hasn't even started law school, that means there aren't any law students available to hire right after law school. Even judges that are a bit "behind" would have to hire a second-semester 1L, let alone a rising 2L. But that would mean hiring someone who might not be the EIC of law review!! And judges who want to hire 3 years in advance just to get the "best" candidate the judge next door doesn't seem to have too big of egos to risk that. jk

For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of SDNY judges only hire clerks with 1+ year(s) of post-law school experience.

runinthefront wrote:

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:So does this mean law school students without post law school experience are precluded from clerking for most popular judges now? If they're starting to hire for 2020 now, and the class of 2020 hasn't even started law school, that means there aren't any law students available to hire right after law school. Even judges that are a bit "behind" would have to hire a second-semester 1L, let alone a rising 2L. But that would mean hiring someone who might not be the EIC of law review!! And judges who want to hire 3 years in advance just to get the "best" candidate the judge next door doesn't seem to have too big of egos to risk that. jk

For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of SDNY judges only hire clerks with 1+ year(s) of post-law school experience.

Yea but what experience? They'd have to hire them during their 1L summer or something like that to get them when they have 1 year of experience. But at that point they don't know what they'll be doing for that year or anything.

Anonymous User wrote:

runinthefront wrote:

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:So does this mean law school students without post law school experience are precluded from clerking for most popular judges now? If they're starting to hire for 2020 now, and the class of 2020 hasn't even started law school, that means there aren't any law students available to hire right after law school. Even judges that are a bit "behind" would have to hire a second-semester 1L, let alone a rising 2L. But that would mean hiring someone who might not be the EIC of law review!! And judges who want to hire 3 years in advance just to get the "best" candidate the judge next door doesn't seem to have too big of egos to risk that. jk

For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of SDNY judges only hire clerks with 1+ year(s) of post-law school experience.

Yea but what experience? They'd have to hire them during their 1L summer or something like that to get them when they have 1 year of experience. But at that point they don't know what they'll be doing for that year or anything.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Anonymous User wrote:

runinthefront wrote:

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:So does this mean law school students without post law school experience are precluded from clerking for most popular judges now? If they're starting to hire for 2020 now, and the class of 2020 hasn't even started law school, that means there aren't any law students available to hire right after law school. Even judges that are a bit "behind" would have to hire a second-semester 1L, let alone a rising 2L. But that would mean hiring someone who might not be the EIC of law review!! And judges who want to hire 3 years in advance just to get the "best" candidate the judge next door doesn't seem to have too big of egos to risk that. jk

For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of SDNY judges only hire clerks with 1+ year(s) of post-law school experience.

Yea but what experience? They'd have to hire them during their 1L summer or something like that to get them when they have 1 year of experience. But at that point they don't know what they'll be doing for that year or anything.

It's not uncommon to get a clerkship during the first semester of your 2L that starts a year after you graduate. Many judges don't care what you do prior to coming to them, so long as you're gaining practical experience. Considering a lot of this hiring happens post-OCI, they'd expect that you'd likely go to a firm for a year or to another clerkship, and either outcome is better than coming straight out of law school (to some judges).

I feel like I'm misunderstanding something here, though.

runinthefront wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

runinthefront wrote:

LurkerTurnedMember wrote:So does this mean law school students without post law school experience are precluded from clerking for most popular judges now? If they're starting to hire for 2020 now, and the class of 2020 hasn't even started law school, that means there aren't any law students available to hire right after law school. Even judges that are a bit "behind" would have to hire a second-semester 1L, let alone a rising 2L. But that would mean hiring someone who might not be the EIC of law review!! And judges who want to hire 3 years in advance just to get the "best" candidate the judge next door doesn't seem to have too big of egos to risk that. jk

For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of SDNY judges only hire clerks with 1+ year(s) of post-law school experience.

Yea but what experience? They'd have to hire them during their 1L summer or something like that to get them when they have 1 year of experience. But at that point they don't know what they'll be doing for that year or anything.

It's not uncommon to get a clerkship during the first semester of your 2L that starts a year after you graduate. Many judges don't care what you do prior to coming to them, so long as you're gaining practical experience. Considering a lot of this hiring happens post-OCI, they'd expect that you'd likely go to a firm for a year or to another clerkship, and either outcome is better than coming straight out of law school (to some judges).

I feel like I'm misunderstanding something here, though.

No, you understood it and answered my concern. I'm just surprised I guess that judges would take a risk on someone so early in law school.

I was hired for 2019-20 by a circuit judge because he knew I would be clerking for a good friend of his for 18-19. So if there's some specific experience they can count on, that helps.

I also don't think it's that early. 1L grades are the most standardized and the hardest to do well in. You can count on a person with a strong 1L year pretty much staying at least the same class rank wise. No one is impressed by people who skyrocket in 2L and 3L thanks to seminars and the easier curve.

Sorry to take away from the thread, but I just want to make a tangential comment on the 1L grades thing and offer some hope to jaded/perhaps soon-to-be-jaded 1Ls.

I only got my d.ct. clerkship because I improved vastly during 2L. Sure, I worked hard to make the connection and have professors call, but no one should think the door is entirely closed if you were median 1L. Maybe it is for elite COA/feeders, but going from median to top 20% with a few strong terms (even with padded seminars and clinics) may be what gets your application pulled from the pile. Again, this is based on my experience for a fairly competitive d.ct. Interestingly, my clerkship office said I need another solid 3L to make myself competitive for COA a year or two after my d.ct.

Moral of the story, don't let an average 1L stop you from pursuing a clerkship if you want one. Sure, Garland may be out of your hands, but there's a way to get a D.Ct., and even a COA, if you improve and hustle. And if you're top of the pack early, go for it now. A buddy of mine dropped and is kicking himself for not applying with his perfect 1L

Yeah, I agree that plenty of judges are going to look at your total GPA and not place particular significance on 1L (for one thing, outside of the T14 there are plenty of schools - like mine - that apply the same curve all 3 years and to all courses; if you have a judge who had that experience - and at least for district court judges there are plenty of non-T14ers out there - I doubt they're going to think to care only about 1L specifically).

I'm not sure that grades matter so much in getting a clerkship. They matter in the location/type of the clerkship. Three types generally exist: "feeder" clerkships, non-feeder but big market clerkships (NDCA, SDNY, etc), non-feeder and secondary market clerkships (in Ohio, Wisconsin, Texas, etc). In these three groups, a COA generally outranks a district court clerkship.

You pretty much have to get top 10% at a top law school, law review, and good connections to get a feeder clerkship. The stronger your connections, the weaker your grades can be but generally they gotta be toward the top. So if you had a median 1L, you're essentially out unless your parents are bff with the judge.

The same thing goes for non-feeder but big market clerkships because they're popular. But you don't have to have everything be near perfect. I know people who clerked in the NDCA or SDNY and weren't on law review, or had good grades but weren't wow grades. So for the first two categories, sure, having a median 1L almost certainly takes you out of the running subject to your connections.

This leaves the non-feeder, secondary market clerkships. If you go to a T14, you can get this clerkship with just median grades. It won't be in the NDCA or SDNY or a big COA clerkship, but you can still get a federal clerkship in a secondary market, probably somewhere toward the middle of the country. If you want the experience of a clerkship, this is essentially the same thing you'd get in the big markets except probably a bit slower so more enjoyable. And it's temporary so it's not like you got to commit to that secondary market for good. If you have a job lined up after the clerkship already, like a 2L summer firm, and just want a solid clerkship experience, this is a great option.

This was mainly for people still in law school. If you have work experience and similar pulls, then you're even better. Also, if you grew up rich and traveled the world or some stupid ish like that, judges love that "experience."

Interesting. I was told by clerkship types at my school that even a slight grade drop 2L and 3L might not matter since 1L grades were so much more important.

Anonymous User wrote:Interesting. I was told by clerkship types at my school that even a slight grade drop 2L and 3L might not matter since 1L grades were so much more important.

On that note, do judges revoke offers for significant drops 2L/3L years?

Anonymous User wrote:Interesting. I was told by clerkship types at my school that even a slight grade drop 2L and 3L might not matter since 1L grades were so much more important.

Again, I'm sure it varies by judge and that there are plenty of judges who came out of that context who care. But there are plenty who don't.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Interesting. I was told by clerkship types at my school that even a slight grade drop 2L and 3L might not matter since 1L grades were so much more important.

On that note, do judges revoke offers for significant drops 2L/3L years?

I'd say it really depends on the judge. Many, if not most, judges won't ask for your grades again after hiring you. At my 2L firm, though, I talked to a few SAs who told me that their judges (generally thought of as "feeders") specifically said that maintaining grades through 2L-3L was important. One judge apparently asks for an updated transcript every semester .

On a personal note, I'm clerking for two judges. One of them almost certainly could not care less about my grades. The other judge specifically offered me "contingent upon similar academic performance throughout the remainder of law school." I don't think she/he would actually revoke my offer or request a final transcript, but who knows? As a 3L, this definitely is in the back of my mind when I skip too many class readings.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Interesting. I was told by clerkship types at my school that even a slight grade drop 2L and 3L might not matter since 1L grades were so much more important.

On that note, do judges revoke offers for significant drops 2L/3L years?

I'd say it really depends on the judge. Many, if not most, judges won't ask for your grades again after hiring you. At my 2L firm, though, I talked to a few SAs who told me that their judges (generally thought of as "feeders") specifically said that maintaining grades through 2L-3L was important. One judge apparently asks for an updated transcript every semester .

On a personal note, I'm clerking for two judges. One of them almost certainly could not care less about my grades. The other judge specifically offered me "contingent upon similar academic performance throughout the remainder of law school." I don't think she/he would actually revoke my offer or request a final transcript, but who knows? As a 3L, this definitely is in the back of my mind when I skip too many class readings.

Thanks!

Anyone know Shwartz (CA3) hiring timeline? Does she wait until her application period closes before interviews go out?

Thanks!

2d Cir offers going out for 2019-2020.

Some CA5 offers too

And CA3

Anonymous User wrote:2d Cir offers going out for 2019-2020.

And have been since like last fall