2018-2019 Clerkship Application Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

While we're talking Kleinfeld, can anyone explain why he asks for LSAT scores? That seems... weird.

[Anonymous User]

While we're talking Kleinfeld, can anyone explain why he asks for LSAT scores? That seems... weird.

This is pure speculation, but I've heard that he (1) also values a good undergrad GPA/good undergrad school and (2) I think he does not hold it against people for choosing the $$$, and maybe appreciates it.

These factors could explain why he wants to know LSAT as well.

For #2 here's a quote (and I've seen it elsewhere by him/talking to former clerks).

I don't limit myself to hiring applicants from the top law schools. Some highly capable people don't go to the top law schools because they can avoid incurring a six figure debt by accepting a good financial package from a law school a little further down on the U.S. News & World Report's list.

[lavarman84]

While we're talking Kleinfeld, can anyone explain why he asks for LSAT scores? That seems... weird.

This is pure speculation, but I've heard that he (1) also values a good undergrad GPA/good undergrad school and (2) I think he does not hold it against people for choosing the $$$, and maybe appreciates it.

These factors could explain why he wants to know LSAT as well.

For #2 here's a quote (and I've seen it elsewhere by him/talking to former clerks).

I don't limit myself to hiring applicants from the top law schools. Some highly capable people don't go to the top law schools because they can avoid incurring a six figure debt by accepting a good financial package from a law school a little further down on the U.S. News & World Report's list.

So why would he care about LSAT scores then? Is being #1 or #2 at the #30 ranked school any different because you scored a 175 on the LSAT instead of a 165?

[A. Nony Mouse]

It shouldn't make a difference, obviously, but he may wonder if you're #1 or #2 because you could have got into a "better" school but chose money, vs. being at the top of people who couldn't get into a better school.

[Anonymous User]

While we're talking Kleinfeld, can anyone explain why he asks for LSAT scores? That seems... weird.

This is pure speculation, but I've heard that he (1) also values a good undergrad GPA/good undergrad school and (2) I think he does not hold it against people for choosing the $$$, and maybe appreciates it.

These factors could explain why he wants to know LSAT as well.

For #2 here's a quote (and I've seen it elsewhere by him/talking to former clerks).

I don't limit myself to hiring applicants from the top law schools. Some highly capable people don't go to the top law schools because they can avoid incurring a six figure debt by accepting a good financial package from a law school a little further down on the U.S. News & World Report's list.

So why would he care about LSAT scores then? Is being #1 or #2 at the #30 ranked school any different because you scored a 175 on the LSAT instead of a 165?

Well, law school is in many ways just a representation of your Undergrad GPA*LSAT (I doubt anyone really thinks the quality of education is drastically different), so he presumably still cares about the road to the school but recognizes that the outcome (school) is not directly correlated with the input (GPA/LSAT) so it's really no different from any judge caring about which school you go to, he just looks at the input instead of the output.

Again though, this is purely me speculating based on imperfect knowledge. He might just think it's a great test, or wants every detail he can get about applicants. I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Anonymous User]

While we're talking Kleinfeld, can anyone explain why he asks for LSAT scores? That seems... weird.

This is pure speculation, but I've heard that he (1) also values a good undergrad GPA/good undergrad school and (2) I think he does not hold it against people for choosing the $$$, and maybe appreciates it.

These factors could explain why he wants to know LSAT as well.

For #2 here's a quote (and I've seen it elsewhere by him/talking to former clerks).

I don't limit myself to hiring applicants from the top law schools. Some highly capable people don't go to the top law schools because they can avoid incurring a six figure debt by accepting a good financial package from a law school a little further down on the U.S. News & World Report's list.

So why would he care about LSAT scores then? Is being #1 or #2 at the #30 ranked school any different because you scored a 175 on the LSAT instead of a 165?

He probably just wants to be sure that the candidate can do logic games. Its a time honored tradition during the dark days [edit: and nights] of winter in Alaska.

[Anonymous User]

Frankly, he's also just a weird dude and a not particularly great judge.

[lavarman84]

It shouldn't make a difference, obviously, but he may wonder if you're #1 or #2 because you could have got into a "better" school but chose money, vs. being at the top of people who couldn't get into a better school.

My point is that it doesn't change anything. You're still facing the same competition, and your resume hasn't changed. Who cares if you could have gotten into a better school when applying? You're still at the top of your class. That proves you're better than a lot of the students at better schools.

[lavarman84]

Frankly, he's also just a weird dude and a not particularly great judge.

Yea, I don't doubt that. I just want to express how silly it is. I'm not planning to apply to him nor do I want to live in Alaska.(although, it is beautiful during the summer) More power to anyone who is interested.

He probably just wants to be sure that the candidate can do logic games. Its a time honored tradition during the dark days [edit: and nights] of winter in Alaska.

In that case, I rescind my objections. It sounds reasonable.

[Anonymous User]

Frankly, he's also just a weird dude and a not particularly great judge.

Could you elaborate on this a bit, I was really interested in clerking for him but hadn't really seen any criticism about his jurisprudence (or oddness though not sure where to look for that)

[Anonymous User]

I prepped extensively for my interviews with his clerks and just generally found his opinions to be not well written and not outstanding analytically. Not saying he's a bad judge or anything, just nothing special.

Also he is EXTREMELY slow about getting opinions out the door, and has been called out by fellow CA9 judges for his tardiness.

I also think making someone do 3 rounds of interviews before he'll even deign to meet you reflects some arrogance.

[Anonymous User]

Curious--what exactly is Klienfeld's four-round process?

[Anonymous User]

Curious--what exactly is Klienfeld's four-round process?

1. Phone interview with clerk about resume/why Kleinfeld/etc.

2. Long phone interview on about 5 of his opinions given beforehand similar to a 1L coldcall

3. Similar to 1, clarify any remaining questions etc.

4. Flown out to dinner with Kleinfeld while he is in civilization for oral arguments. Offer on the spot if given.

[Anonymous User]

I applied for a bunch of clerkships, with varying start dates, some this spring, others 2018 and 2019 starts. All SDNY except for one DC federal district judge. How long does it typically take to hear from chambers? And if they aren't interested, do they also let folks know? I feel like I applied to college and am waiting to hear back from schools. I hate this!

[Anonymous User]

I applied for a bunch of clerkships, with varying start dates, some this spring, others 2018 and 2019 starts. All SDNY except for one DC federal district judge. How long does it typically take to hear from chambers? And if they aren't interested, do they also let folks know? I feel like I applied to college and am waiting to hear back from schools. I hate this!

-On response time from chambers: Varies from chambers to chambers. Sometimes it's one or two days from submission before they reach out and sometimes it's six months or more depending where that judge is in their hiring cycle (ie. They receive applications beginning in May and don't actually start reviewing the stack/pile until November).

-On rejections: 1) The most common rejection if you apply via OSCAR is just chambers changing the position status to filled. There will be no personalized follow up or other acknowledgment of your application or its status. Some judges pro-actively note this in their hiring descriptions for the position - most do not. 2) You receive a generic rejection e-mail from chambers and/or the court's human resources department that the position is filled. 3) You receive a paper rejection letter from chambers via snail mail that may be personalized or not.

[Anonymous User]

Top of class at lower T14 with highly influential/connected prof willing to make calls to feeder judges (those open for 18/19 and 19/20). Before he made the phone call offer, I had an interview lined up with a non-feeder judge in a not-ideal location, though I have heard he would be great to work for. My prof wants me to cancel the interview to see what else is out there, but I'm worried nothing better will come along. Trying to get as many perspectives as possible. Thoughts?

[lavarman84]

Top of class at lower T14 with highly influential/connected prof willing to make calls to feeder judges (those open for 18/19 and 19/20). Before he made the phone call offer, I had an interview lined up with a non-feeder judge in a not-ideal location, though I have heard he would be great to work for. My prof wants me to cancel the interview to see what else is out there, but I'm worried nothing better will come along. Trying to get as many perspectives as possible. Thoughts?

Is the interview for 18-19? My thought is that since a lot of the feeders have moved for 18-19, it might boost your chances at a feeder in 19-20 if you have prior clerkship on your resume.

But I'm not a connected Professor. They likely have better advice than I do.

[mjb447]

Top of class at lower T14 with highly influential/connected prof willing to make calls to feeder judges (those open for 18/19 and 19/20). Before he made the phone call offer, I had an interview lined up with a non-feeder judge in a not-ideal location, though I have heard he would be great to work for. My prof wants me to cancel the interview to see what else is out there, but I'm worried nothing better will come along. Trying to get as many perspectives as possible. Thoughts?

Lots of unknowns here (understandably), including a more precise definition of "top of class," "lower T14," and "not-ideal location," all of which would affect either what else was likely to come along or how significant your current offer to interview is. (I also don't know if you're considering holding out for a feeder because you want to try for S.Ct. or just for a prestige bump). I'd probably take the interview because clerkship hiring is kind of a crapshoot to begin with, even for fairly strong candidates, and you think this judge might be "great to work for." OTOH, your prof presumably knows your situation better than I do. If he's placed with feeders before, you may want to listen to him rather than this random internet stranger - you can always apply for a later cycle if you miss out this time.

[Anonymous User]

Top of class at lower T14 with highly influential/connected prof willing to make calls to feeder judges (those open for 18/19 and 19/20). Before he made the phone call offer, I had an interview lined up with a non-feeder judge in a not-ideal location, though I have heard he would be great to work for. My prof wants me to cancel the interview to see what else is out there, but I'm worried nothing better will come along. Trying to get as many perspectives as possible. Thoughts?

Like others were getting at, it depends on if you want to clerk for two years. If you do, it doesn't hurt to take this interview and potentially clerk for the judge, and then apply for a feeder for 19-20. If you're feeder or bust, which it seems you're not, you should cancel the interview. No one has a crystal ball, but I'd put better-than-50% odds on you getting at least a handful of interviews for the 18-19 cycle, which is something to think about. But like others have mentioned, many feeders, but nowhere near all, have already hired for 18-19.

[Anonymous User]

It shouldn't make a difference, obviously, but he may wonder if you're #1 or #2 because you could have got into a "better" school but chose money, vs. being at the top of people who couldn't get into a better school.

My point is that it doesn't change anything. You're still facing the same competition, and your resume hasn't changed. Who cares if you could have gotten into a better school when applying? You're still at the top of your class. That proves you're better than a lot of the students at better schools.

There's a pretty popular anecdote about how Kagan used to grill MVPB professors about whether their #1 students applying to her chambers really matched up to HYS students. (Absurd, I know.) But there's a larger point that especially for the more selective clerkships, it really doesn't matter that you're "better than a lot of the students at better schools" -- that's not the relevant competition.

[lavarman84]

It shouldn't make a difference, obviously, but he may wonder if you're #1 or #2 because you could have got into a "better" school but chose money, vs. being at the top of people who couldn't get into a better school.

My point is that it doesn't change anything. You're still facing the same competition, and your resume hasn't changed. Who cares if you could have gotten into a better school when applying? You're still at the top of your class. That proves you're better than a lot of the students at better schools.

There's a pretty popular anecdote about how Kagan used to grill MVPB professors about whether their #1 students applying to her chambers really matched up to HYS students. (Absurd, I know.) But there's a larger point that especially for the more selective clerkships, it really doesn't matter that you're "better than a lot of the students at better schools" -- that's not the relevant competition.

And it's not really possible to compare the #1 at Harvard with the #1 at Michigan and the #1 at Georgia. Obviously, the Harvard #1 will be given the BOTD. But the #1 at Georgia could very easily be the more intelligent and more capable lawyer.

My point is that the LSAT doesn't tell you anything about a clerkship applicant.

[Jchance]

Top of class at lower T14 with highly influential/connected prof willing to make calls to feeder judges (those open for 18/19 and 19/20). Before he made the phone call offer, I had an interview lined up with a non-feeder judge in a not-ideal location, though I have heard he would be great to work for. My prof wants me to cancel the interview to see what else is out there, but I'm worried nothing better will come along. Trying to get as many perspectives as possible. Thoughts?

Your prof has more knowledge than you and have seen how students similar to your class rank at your school fare, so the prof is thinking/seeing that you're selling yourself short. If I was you, I'd listen to the prof and sit tight.

[esther0123]

Are people seeing any movements for interviews in SDNY/EDNY at all? Or is it me... or is it just not a busy interview season?

[Anonymous User]

Are people seeing any movements for interviews in SDNY/EDNY at all? Or is it me... or is it just not a busy interview season?

Sdny interview last week so idk

[esther0123]

Are people seeing any movements for interviews in SDNY/EDNY at all? Or is it me... or is it just not a busy interview season?

Sdny interview last week so idk

Thanks! Which judge, if you don't mind me asking?