Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship? Forum

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anon sequitur

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by anon sequitur » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:59 am

Even if you can't get in touch with former clerks, if you can get in touch with anyone who worked at the same courthouse, or even AUSAs for that district, you will probably be able to get the relevant gossip. After a few weeks at my clerkship, I knew who the mean and demanding judge was. Everyone in the building knew as well. Just lucked out it wasn't mine.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:
I get that no one is going to want to out any judges. If I was a clerk, I know I wouldn't. But as a law student going through the clerkship application process, it is really difficult to get any information about stuff like this, especially judge's to avoid. It would be awesome or something if someone made a google doc where people could just fill in names of judge's they clerked for that act in the way some of the posters are saying.

But I would suspect no one will out anyone, which given the circumstances, seems 100% reasonable.

Nobody's going to name names.

For clerkship applicants trying to figure out about a judge, I found the robing room helpful (though data is limited). A couple judges in my district have comments like "disrespectful to litigants, shouts over lawyers, etc" and those comments ring true. If a judge "misbehaves" publicly, you can expect worse privately.

The converse isn't necessarily true though, so anonymous internet comments only go so far.
FYI, I don't think this is true. I clerked for a judge who frequently lost his/her temper in the courtroom and could be very short with parties, but who was a decent, humane person and a great boss and mentor.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:
I get that no one is going to want to out any judges. If I was a clerk, I know I wouldn't. But as a law student going through the clerkship application process, it is really difficult to get any information about stuff like this, especially judge's to avoid. It would be awesome or something if someone made a google doc where people could just fill in names of judge's they clerked for that act in the way some of the posters are saying.

But I would suspect no one will out anyone, which given the circumstances, seems 100% reasonable.

Nobody's going to name names.

For clerkship applicants trying to figure out about a judge, I found the robing room helpful (though data is limited). A couple judges in my district have comments like "disrespectful to litigants, shouts over lawyers, etc" and those comments ring true. If a judge "misbehaves" publicly, you can expect worse privately.

The converse isn't necessarily true though, so anonymous internet comments only go so far.
FYI, I don't think this is true. I clerked for a judge who frequently lost his/her temper in the courtroom and could be very short with parties, but who was a decent, humane person and a great boss and mentor.
I'm skeptical as well. There were a couple of judges on my court who had a reputation for being short with litigants but were pretty nice in chambers because internally everyone was on the same team.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:24 pm

And frankly I think 95% of posts on robing room are from people who are upset that the judge ruled against them.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:54 am

Anonymous User wrote: I'm skeptical as well. There were a couple of judges on my court who had a reputation for being short with litigants but were pretty nice in chambers because internally everyone was on the same team.
Works the other way as well. There was a judge in my courthouse who has glowing reviews on Robing Room but was well-known among clerks for being an absolute nightmare of a boss.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:00 am

I'm glad I found this thread. I'm doing a COA clerkship right now and I also hate it. So many of the above posts resonate with me. I've also been counting down since 3 months in, now I have 9 more to go. :/ I'm curious -- has anyone considered or actually quit their clerkship? Is it the career suicide I imagine it to be? I understand it's "only a year," but after 3 years of hating law school and now this, I'm tired of being miserable, stressed, and panicked all the time.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by FSK » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:02 am

I'm way over dealing with pro se filings, I'll tell you that. But I've lined up my permanent job now, which has made this 10000% less stressful
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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:39 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm glad I found this thread. I'm doing a COA clerkship right now and I also hate it. So many of the above posts resonate with me. I've also been counting down since 3 months in, now I have 9 more to go. :/ I'm curious -- has anyone considered or actually quit their clerkship? Is it the career suicide I imagine it to be? I understand it's "only a year," but after 3 years of hating law school and now this, I'm tired of being miserable, stressed, and panicked all the time.
I hope you aren't going to big law after your clerkship then ... miserable, stressed and panicked all the time is literally something you have to get used to.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:48 pm

Public personae do not always match private conduct. I've had nothing but pleasant interactions with one SDNY judge who is infamously a nightmare to work for (and fires clerks left and right, to boot). Whereas one of the judges in the court in which I clerked who had a reputation for being brusque and nasty to lawyers was just a doll to her clerks.

Sometimes there are layers on layers. I can think of one COA judge who's very tough to work for (although more on the demanding/no-boundaries side than on the mean side) but is absolutely lovely to everyone else, including to clerks that do not work for her.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:08 pm

Yeah, but even people who are not his clerks don't tend to think that highly of Richard Berman

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm glad I found this thread. I'm doing a COA clerkship right now and I also hate it. So many of the above posts resonate with me. I've also been counting down since 3 months in, now I have 9 more to go. :/ I'm curious -- has anyone considered or actually quit their clerkship? Is it the career suicide I imagine it to be? I understand it's "only a year," but after 3 years of hating law school and now this, I'm tired of being miserable, stressed, and panicked all the time.
I hope you aren't going to big law after your clerkship then ... miserable, stressed and panicked all the time is literally something you have to get used to.
Way to use anon to spout some nonsense.

My COA clerkship year was far more stressful and unrelenting than either of the two firms I've worked at, and that included being on a leanly-staffed jury trial team. I remember having almost the exact same moment 3 months into my clerkship as the poster describes above. Thankfully, I had practiced before the clerkship and so at least knew that I didn't hate law in general, but just that job in particular. Now, although I am very busy, I am certainly not miserable, or stress or panicked all of the time, and I enjoy practice 1000x more than clerking.

To the first anon poster: Courage. But yeah, don't quit. Not sure if you're working for a screamer or instead a judge who simply assumes they own their clerks 24x7, but if the latter, do your best to try to draw boundaries. It's tough, though. Godspeed.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm glad I found this thread. I'm doing a COA clerkship right now and I also hate it. So many of the above posts resonate with me. I've also been counting down since 3 months in, now I have 9 more to go. :/ I'm curious -- has anyone considered or actually quit their clerkship? Is it the career suicide I imagine it to be? I understand it's "only a year," but after 3 years of hating law school and now this, I'm tired of being miserable, stressed, and panicked all the time.
I hope you aren't going to big law after your clerkship then ... miserable, stressed and panicked all the time is literally something you have to get used to.
Way to use anon to spout some nonsense.

My COA clerkship year was far more stressful and unrelenting than either of the two firms I've worked at, and that included being on a leanly-staffed jury trial team. I remember having almost the exact same moment 3 months into my clerkship as the poster describes above. Thankfully, I had practiced before the clerkship and so at least knew that I didn't hate law in general, but just that job in particular. Now, although I am very busy, I am certainly not miserable, or stress or panicked all of the time, and I enjoy practice 1000x more than clerking.

To the first anon poster: Courage. But yeah, don't quit. Not sure if you're working for a screamer or instead a judge who simply assumes they own their clerks 24x7, but if the latter, do your best to try to draw boundaries. It's tough, though. Godspeed.
Jesus. This is terrifying. I too have practiced but am currently at an amazingly chill enjoyable DCT clerkship. Headed to COA next year. Why the hell so much work? - friend clerked for Kosinski 2 years ago so I know that horror story but didn't know it was more common.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:46 am

Like everything else in this game, it's completely judge-dependent. My COA gig is basically 9-5. My colleagues next door may as well be in biglaw.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:52 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm glad I found this thread. I'm doing a COA clerkship right now and I also hate it. So many of the above posts resonate with me. I've also been counting down since 3 months in, now I have 9 more to go. :/ I'm curious -- has anyone considered or actually quit their clerkship? Is it the career suicide I imagine it to be? I understand it's "only a year," but after 3 years of hating law school and now this, I'm tired of being miserable, stressed, and panicked all the time.
I hope you aren't going to big law after your clerkship then ... miserable, stressed and panicked all the time is literally something you have to get used to.
Way to use anon to spout some nonsense.

My COA clerkship year was far more stressful and unrelenting than either of the two firms I've worked at, and that included being on a leanly-staffed jury trial team. I remember having almost the exact same moment 3 months into my clerkship as the poster describes above. Thankfully, I had practiced before the clerkship and so at least knew that I didn't hate law in general, but just that job in particular. Now, although I am very busy, I am certainly not miserable, or stress or panicked all of the time, and I enjoy practice 1000x more than clerking.

To the first anon poster: Courage. But yeah, don't quit. Not sure if you're working for a screamer or instead a judge who simply assumes they own their clerks 24x7, but if the latter, do your best to try to draw boundaries. It's tough, though. Godspeed.
I'm the anon at the top of the quote. I'm definitely not going into biglaw after this. Can you elaborate on why I shouldn't quit? I already have a job lined up afterward (I can't imagine they would be too happy about me quitting, though I have a good relationship with them and I think they might understand). Life just seems to short to put up with this bullshit.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the anon at the top of the quote. I'm definitely not going into biglaw after this. Can you elaborate on why I shouldn't quit? I already have a job lined up afterward (I can't imagine they would be too happy about me quitting, though I have a good relationship with them and I think they might understand). Life just seems to short to put up with this bullshit.
If you ever want to move anywhere else, 9 months is the difference between getting to put a COA clerkship on your resume and having a three month period with nothing or a three month clerkship position that immediately raises a question about why you were there such a short time. I don't know if it's career suicide - you'll just lose a leg up that you would otherwise have had. Also, while judges don't really get better temperamentally over time, the first three months are the most difficult in terms of learning the job and getting used to your judge. I'd do my best to stick it out. (Plus, it sounds like you're not even sure if your next employer will understand if you quit.)

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I'm the anon at the top of the quote. I'm definitely not going into biglaw after this. Can you elaborate on why I shouldn't quit? I already have a job lined up afterward (I can't imagine they would be too happy about me quitting, though I have a good relationship with them and I think they might understand). Life just seems to short to put up with this bullshit.
I'm the firm->COA->firm anon.

Truth of the matter is, you just don't want to explain this, and if you quit, you'll have to explain and revisit this whenever you interview in the future. Don't think that changes between biglaw and nonbiglaw work.
Anonymous User wrote:Jesus. This is terrifying. I too have practiced but am currently at an amazingly chill enjoyable DCT clerkship. Headed to COA next year. Why the hell so much work? - friend clerked for Kosinski 2 years ago so I know that horror story but didn't know it was more common.
I clerked w/former d. ct. clerks. There's more volume of work at d. ct.--the difference is the amount of time you have to spend on each issue, and what your judge's style on that point is. Having a judge that doesn't participate in bench memo pool also makes a fair amount of extra work.
Anonymous User wrote:Like everything else in this game, it's completely judge-dependent. My COA gig is basically 9-5. My colleagues next door may as well be in biglaw.
100% this. Thus, the key is to talk to former clerks. They won't explicitly throw their judges under the bus, but if you've lived in the world you know the code words to look for and you'll be able to pick up the subtext. As far as Kozinski and his type, those clerks know exactly what they're getting into because those judges are upfront about what the deal is. But of course, it's not like Kozinski had that rep from day 1.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:54 am

I clerked for an insane judge. I would absolutely throw her under the bus. She is a horrible, horrible person who everyone hates.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:50 pm

I know someone who clerked for a 92-year-old judge who was senile and used him like a personal servant. Needless to say, although he liked the brain work, he didn't like the clerkship. His judge eventually terminated him for failing to pick up the his bags on time. You can't make this stuff up. The judge canned him even though the guy was a skilled opinion writer whose work product the judge loved. Sadly, the guy struggled to find work after that because potential employers thought the story was too far-fetched to be real. They assumed he had something to hide when he was just being honest.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I'm glad I found this thread. I'm doing a COA clerkship right now and I also hate it. So many of the above posts resonate with me. I've also been counting down since 3 months in, now I have 9 more to go. :/ I'm curious -- has anyone considered or actually quit their clerkship? Is it the career suicide I imagine it to be? I understand it's "only a year," but after 3 years of hating law school and now this, I'm tired of being miserable, stressed, and panicked all the time.
I hope you aren't going to big law after your clerkship then ... miserable, stressed and panicked all the time is literally something you have to get used to.
i loled b/c this is so true. im stressed and panicked at biglaw and clerkship is my ticket out to get a decent government job in the near future. biglaw is like everything you hate about the legal profession.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:22 pm

.
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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:55 am

Tonight I was reminiscing about the time I spent a full hour cussing about my judge in my co-clerk's office. I mean, I did that a lot in general, but only once for a full, uninterrupted hour of sailor talk.

So yes, a lot of people really hate clerking. I don't like to advertise it lest I scare people who already have a clerkship lined up, but really, of my many clerk friends, only a few genuinely liked their experience. Even people who don't work for awful judges often find the experience boring and lonesome. I need a lot more years of lawyering before I think I'll really be able to say whether the experience was worth it, but I know it was the worst year of my life and I would never, ever do it again.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by timmyd » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:42 pm

LOL. Ya'll clerked for the wrong judges. my year was relatively stress free and ultimately rewarding. I could see clerking being a terrible experience though if you had the wrong judge. Foe example, at the beginning of the clerkship, I didnt have a great grasp of summary judgment--the bread and butter of a District Clerk's workload in my experience. I mean, I knew what it was; I just didnt grasp the intricacies of the motion which can only come from experience. I drafted a couple awful rulings. I was freaking out but my Judge was super kind and patient. I cant imagine clerking or an asshole Judge. I might have been fired.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:47 pm

My judge is an abusive, demeaning fuck to everyone in chambers. I have another clerkship lined up after this. I desperately want dump and apply for another open spot now that would run till my other clerkship starts, but I want to practice here and I know I'm screwed without this judge's reference.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Tonight I was reminiscing about the time I spent a full hour cussing about my judge in my co-clerk's office. I mean, I did that a lot in general, but only once for a full, uninterrupted hour of sailor talk.

So yes, a lot of people really hate clerking. I don't like to advertise it lest I scare people who already have a clerkship lined up, but really, of my many clerk friends, only a few genuinely liked their experience. Even people who don't work for awful judges often find the experience boring and lonesome. I need a lot more years of lawyering before I think I'll really be able to say whether the experience was worth it, but I know it was the worst year of my life and I would never, ever do it again.
I'm on my 2nd clerkship and have had two completely different experiences. The judge I currently work for is, without a doubt, the best boss I have had and probably will ever have. Every one of his clerks says the same thing. I love the job. It's never boring (okay some habeas/prisoner stuff is excruciating) or lonely, and everyone in the court is nice and pleasant to work with. The worst I've heard about any judge here is one is really strict about hours and time off (e.g., every clerk has to be in chambers for certain hours and he meticulously tracks your days off).

My prior clerkship, however, was awful. I worked for a psycho and I hated the work, which was partially due to the court's docket and partially due to how the judge assigned work. I can't count how many hours my co-clerk and I complained about our judge on sametime - because we were expected not to leave our desks and she'd eavesdrop on convos. This experience was very unusual though. Every other clerk I met at that court loved it there.

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Re: Does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:25 am

To those who disliked their clerkship/judge, what was the interview like? I was lucky to have gotten two offers to consider (one judge told me to take a week to think about it, and I got another offer during that time). The Judge who I am not working for was very curt and borderline combative in my interview. Even though it was somewhat more prestigious clerkship, I turned it down for my current spot (Midwest flyover district ct).

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