What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship? Forum

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What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:32 pm

Is there any benefit to a second COA clerkship? The second clerkship is not any more prestigious than the first. An obvious con is time/money. What are the pros? Clearly the experience. But anything else?

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:15 am

Getting connections to a second judge (and their clerks/network), and maybe, if it's a different circuit/where you want to practice, a way to move to a new part of the country. A risk is looking like you're trying to be a career clerk. I probably wouldn't find a second COA gig worth it, but it might be depending on one's individual situation.

(Of course, I never had a first one, so take with a huge grain of salt etc.)

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by scribelaw » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:51 pm

I could see it if the second circuit is the DC Circuit or a feeder (if you have borderline SCOTUS credentials). Otherwise, probably not.

If you want to do a second clerkship, why not SDNY or a similarly great district court? At least then you'd be learning some new tricks and getting a credential that could be useful (i.e., for AUSA).

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:40 pm

OP here. Thanks for the advice. I've also heard rumors that law firms may not like it if I take the second clerkship. Can anyone confirm this? The second clerkship is also arguably in a weaker circuit than the first clerkship is, and the second clerkship is not in the circuit that I want to practice.

A big benefit of the second clerkship is that the Judge is the nicest person I ever met, and the clerks are very very happy.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by legalese_retard » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:56 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thanks for the advice. I've also heard rumors that law firms may not like it if I take the second clerkship. Can anyone confirm this? The second clerkship is also arguably in a weaker circuit than the first clerkship is, and the second clerkship is not in the circuit that I want to practice.

A big benefit of the second clerkship is that the Judge is the nicest person I ever met, and the clerks are very very happy.
What is your end goal after the clerkship? If you enjoy the clerkship experience, I don't think it would hurt you to go for another clerkship. Plus remember that you will get a significant pay bump because you would have clerkship experience.

If you are concerned about firms, learn how to spin the situation. For example: "I did the second clerkship because I wanted to work in a different circuit to compare ideological differences. In legal practice, I know I will have to adjust my legal strategy depending on the judge or circuit. Working for two different judges helped me with this skill because...."

If I were in your position, I would go for it. Most former law clerks will tell you that their clerkship was one of the most rewarding legal experiences. There might be a firm or two that may be skeptical about someone with more than one clerkship that isn't based on a "prestige-bump" basis. But I think there are more firms that would view a second clerkship as a positive rather than a negative.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:02 am

Figure this is a good place to ask this. If you have borderline SCOTUS credentials, like clerking, have the option of a second CoA gig for a feeder, but you're undecided whether you really want to SCOTUS clerk, is there any downside to taking the second CoA?

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Citizen Genet » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:02 am

legalese_retard wrote:
What is your end goal after the clerkship? If you enjoy the clerkship experience, I don't think it would hurt you to go for another clerkship. Plus remember that you will get a significant pay bump because you would have clerkship experience.
Just want to say that while class credit for 1 year of clerking is almost universally accepted with Vault 100 firms, treatment for two clerkships is a little more dicey. I don't have a great sense of the number of firms that give full credit for both years, but I have heard that some won't give the full two years. And I think three years is so rare that it would be a case-by-case basis.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Citizen Genet » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:Figure this is a good place to ask this. If you have borderline SCOTUS credentials, like clerking, have the option of a second CoA gig for a feeder, but you're undecided whether you really want to SCOTUS clerk, is there any downside to taking the second CoA?
So really, as with everything, it's going to depend on who is reviewing on the other side. A good number of people won't question a second clerkship. Of the ones who do, some will question it, but if you have a good explanation for why, they don't care.

In your situation, you can say, "I know Judge Sutton [I like him, so we'll go with him] is very well respected in the judiciary and that clerking for him has benefits beyond other normal appellate clerkships." If pushed further, you can talk about improving writing and connecting with his network of clerks.

Congrats on the awesome stats and best of luck with it.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by legalese_retard » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:39 pm

Citizen Genet wrote:
legalese_retard wrote:
What is your end goal after the clerkship? If you enjoy the clerkship experience, I don't think it would hurt you to go for another clerkship. Plus remember that you will get a significant pay bump because you would have clerkship experience.
Just want to say that while class credit for 1 year of clerking is almost universally accepted with Vault 100 firms, treatment for two clerkships is a little more dicey. I don't have a great sense of the number of firms that give full credit for both years, but I have heard that some won't give the full two years. And I think three years is so rare that it would be a case-by-case basis.
Sorry, I meant that there would be a significant pay bump on the JSP pay scale for the next clerkship, so the annual pay for the second COA would be better than what you are receiving right now.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Citizen Genet » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:52 pm

legalese_retard wrote:
Citizen Genet wrote:
legalese_retard wrote:
What is your end goal after the clerkship? If you enjoy the clerkship experience, I don't think it would hurt you to go for another clerkship. Plus remember that you will get a significant pay bump because you would have clerkship experience.
Just want to say that while class credit for 1 year of clerking is almost universally accepted with Vault 100 firms, treatment for two clerkships is a little more dicey. I don't have a great sense of the number of firms that give full credit for both years, but I have heard that some won't give the full two years. And I think three years is so rare that it would be a case-by-case basis.
Sorry, I meant that there would be a significant pay bump on the JSP pay scale for the next clerkship, so the annual pay for the second COA would be better than what you are receiving right now.
Ah, my bad. That's actually the better reading of your post anyway.

Yes, the bump for the 2nd year is big. (about $7-11k depending on the location). If you come in with bar passage and two years experience, the pay can be great for the work you're doing. If I remember right, it breaks $90k in major metro areas.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by ClerkAdvisor » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Figure this is a good place to ask this. If you have borderline SCOTUS credentials, like clerking, have the option of a second CoA gig for a feeder, but you're undecided whether you really want to SCOTUS clerk, is there any downside to taking the second CoA?
Yes, there are downsides to a second COA:

- You lose out on additional money
- You come in further behind your class peers without developing any additional skills (i.e., a district court clerkship makes sense on top of a COA, because you learn a ton about litigation)

Honestly, if you (a) you're not sure you want to try for a SCOTUS clerkship and, more importantly, (b) realistically have a shot at a SCOTUS clerkship (i.e., graduated #1, 2 or 3 at a T14, or high in your class at HYS with the right faculty connections), then you shouldn't do the additional COA clerkship.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by ClerkAdvisor » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Is there any benefit to a second COA clerkship? The second clerkship is not any more prestigious than the first. An obvious con is time/money. What are the pros? Clearly the experience. But anything else?
I don't see any real upside here. The only time, in this situation, where a second COA could be useful is where you need to move to a new, insular market, and the COA clerkship gives you an in to that market. Otherwise, if you want to clerk an additional year, you should go for a district court clerkship.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:27 pm

OP here. Thank you all for the advice. Someone had asked what my aspirations are, so to get the best advice, I think it is best for me to provide a few more details.

My "end goal" is to be an academic. I don't really want to litigate, but I do have quite a bit of debt (over $150k), so I am first going into Biglaw. I am currently a 2L at a T50, and I will be starting an SA position with a V25 firm this summer. My hope is to practice for a few years, pay off my debt, and then strive to get a position at a law school as a professor.

I recently accepted a clerkship offer with a prestigious judge on one of the top circuits. When I took the position, I immediately sent out emails to the other judges withdrawing my applications. One of the judges called me and offered me a clerkship for the year AFTER my first clerkship, which is a position I did not apply for. I need to give him an answer by early this week.

I see the pros as the following:

(1) The new judge is really awesome. His clerks are happy. While the clerks from my first clerkship have told me stories of long, grueling hours, these clerks work 9-5, M-F. I think I would be very happy here, and like someone on this thread said, these clerkships are once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.

(2) I would have a second person who would back me and support me as I progress in my career.

(3) I don't know if this is true, but my CDO office seems to think I would be able to work on a publication while I work for the second judge. They say I won't be able to publish while I work for the first judge, or for the law firm, but that the second judge seems "cushy" enough that it would be very possible. If that is true, and if I would be able to get out a publication during the second clerkship, then that seems like a big deal to me.

(4) I would have the ability to experience different areas of the law and would see how two judges work and think.

The cons are the following:

(1) More time before I can make any money. I hate to be blunt, but it's true. But, I should say that I do have the means to live because the cost of living at the second clerkship will be very cheap. So it would just be more waiting.

(2) The second clerkship is in the middle of nowhere. Now, I think I would be happy in the middle of nowhere. But, I wonder if future employers will wonder why I wanted to live in the middle of nowhere in an area I will not be practicing. My answer would have to be because I love the judge and wanted a more-rounded experience. I wonder--and you guys might have some perspective on this--whether a second, less-prestigious clerkship could DETRACT from the prestige of a single, prestigious clerkship; namely, because I would have to explain myself and start answering all these questions.

(3) I don't know how the law firm will take it. Maybe I should just email them tomorrow and ask what they think about double clerkships? I'm terrified about upsetting the firm. But I have also been told that CoA clerks do not have trouble finding firm jobs. I don't know how true this is. Is it just more likely, or is finding a job almost a guarantee?

Thanks so much. It really is a life-changing decision, and I appreciate all the advice.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by ClerkAdvisor » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:47 pm

I really don't think a second clerkship makes sense in your situation... a couple thoughts

-Getting academia out of a T50 school is very difficult, especially since the market for new professors is contracting. You need to have a backup plan and realistic sense of how to achieve that backup plan.

-If you want academia, striving for a bigelow/climenko fellowship or a VAP for after your first clerkship makes more sense.

-I'm not sure that you're going to see that much of a difference in the docket, unless your first clerkship is DC or Fed Circuits... Otherwise, most of the other circuits have somewhat similar dockets (sure, 9th is heavier on immigration than, say, the 1st, but everyone will have a decent mix of cases).

-If you're worried about paying off loans, you need to get to biglaw sooner than later... Most people who try to leave biglaw for academia do it within a couple years... Start paying off those loans as soon as possible.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Citizen Genet » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here. Thank you all for the advice. Someone had asked what my aspirations are, so to get the best advice, I think it is best for me to provide a few more details.

My "end goal" is to be an academic. I don't really want to litigate, but I do have quite a bit of debt (over $150k), so I am first going into Biglaw. I am currently a 2L at a T50, and I will be starting an SA position with a V25 firm this summer. My hope is to practice for a few years, pay off my debt, and then strive to get a position at a law school as a professor.

I recently accepted a clerkship offer with a prestigious judge on one of the top circuits. When I took the position, I immediately sent out emails to the other judges withdrawing my applications. One of the judges called me and offered me a clerkship for the year AFTER my first clerkship, which is a position I did not apply for. I need to give him an answer by early this week.

I see the pros as the following:

(1) The new judge is really awesome. His clerks are happy. While the clerks from my first clerkship have told me stories of long, grueling hours, these clerks work 9-5, M-F. I think I would be very happy here, and like someone on this thread said, these clerkships are once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.

(2) I would have a second person who would back me and support me as I progress in my career.

(3) I don't know if this is true, but my CDO office seems to think I would be able to work on a publication while I work for the second judge. They say I won't be able to publish while I work for the first judge, or for the law firm, but that the second judge seems "cushy" enough that it would be very possible. If that is true, and if I would be able to get out a publication during the second clerkship, then that seems like a big deal to me.

(4) I would have the ability to experience different areas of the law and would see how two judges work and think.

The cons are the following:

(1) More time before I can make any money. I hate to be blunt, but it's true. But, I should say that I do have the means to live because the cost of living at the second clerkship will be very cheap. So it would just be more waiting.

(2) The second clerkship is in the middle of nowhere. Now, I think I would be happy in the middle of nowhere. But, I wonder if future employers will wonder why I wanted to live in the middle of nowhere in an area I will not be practicing. My answer would have to be because I love the judge and wanted a more-rounded experience. I wonder--and you guys might have some perspective on this--whether a second, less-prestigious clerkship could DETRACT from the prestige of a single, prestigious clerkship; namely, because I would have to explain myself and start answering all these questions.

(3) I don't know how the law firm will take it. Maybe I should just email them tomorrow and ask what they think about double clerkships? I'm terrified about upsetting the firm. But I have also been told that CoA clerks do not have trouble finding firm jobs. I don't know how true this is. Is it just more likely, or is finding a job almost a guarantee?

Thanks so much. It really is a life-changing decision, and I appreciate all the advice.
That makes a big difference. First off, congrats getting two COA offers, particularly as a 2L at a Top 50 school. (If you're comfortable, I'd really appreciate a PM to discuss what you did. I like collecting different anecdotes to use for advice.)

If you're really set on becoming a professor, I think the second clerkship is the right way to go, especially given the judge's profile. The most common advice you'll get for becoming a prof is, "Publish, publish, publish." While some Yale alums and SCOTUS clerks land great tenure-track professorships without significant publications, they're the exception rather than the rule. Coming from outside a traditional powerhouse school, the odds are stacked against you pretty hard. So you'll need a publication history to convince schools to take a risk on you. The second clerkship sounds like it will give the time to work on publications to put on your CV for when you decide to go to market later. And, like you said, it gives you someone else in your corner and gives you general resume shininess.

Now, this comes with a big caveat. Becoming a law prof is tough. It is only going to become tougher over the next three years as ripple effects from the legal bubble burst of 2009 keep working their way through the academy. You are wise to prioritize going to a firm like you are because it will give you the safety net to keep practicing if you can't transition to the academy. If you're at a V25 in a major city, they likely won't mind you doing two different clerkships. Come up with some other reason for why you're interested in doing the second clerkship -- like the judge specifically reaching out to you, have spoken with former clerks who emphasize how great he is at improving writing, something that is a marketable trait for a firm. Open up a line of communication with the firm and let them know they're the first priority, but you want to see if it is something the firm would encourage.

Again, PM me if you're comfortable discussing what you did to land the spots you did. Best of luck with it.

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Post by Anonnymous » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:30 pm

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by legalese_retard » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:43 am

Based on your desired career track, I also suggest you take the second clerkship. If either clerkship are near a law school or even a university, you might have a chance to already start teaching. I know one law clerk that is teaching a death penalty course at a local university. A former law clerk for my judge was an adjunct at the local law school and taught legal research and writing and was a mock trial coach. I'm not saying that those options are feasible for you, as it would depend on the approval of your judge, but the clerkships should give you more time to pursue those options.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:53 am

I agree that if you can get a publication out during the second clerkship, it sounds like a good way to go. I would think you might be able sell it to your firm if you explain it pretty much the way you explained it here - the opportunity came up as a result of your applications for the first clerkship term (i.e. you didn't set out to do a second clerkship) and you've heard such good things about the judge and the experience that you wouldn't like to pass it up (obviously you won't tell the firm about trying to publish). I don't know how a firm would react, but honestly, the explanation makes it sound less odd (rather than consciously saying, I am going to set out and apply for a second COA clerkship).

I don't think it would detract from the prestige of the first clerkship - I know people who've done a D Ct clerkship after doing an awesome feeder-y COA clerkship, and they still look like people with awesome qualifications who chose to do something they felt would benefit them.

And the COA clerks I know haven't had any problems getting jobs, but otherwise I know very little about it.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:06 pm

ClerkAdvisor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Figure this is a good place to ask this. If you have borderline SCOTUS credentials, like clerking, have the option of a second CoA gig for a feeder, but you're undecided whether you really want to SCOTUS clerk, is there any downside to taking the second CoA?
Yes, there are downsides to a second COA:

- You lose out on additional money
- You come in further behind your class peers without developing any additional skills (i.e., a district court clerkship makes sense on top of a COA, because you learn a ton about litigation)

Honestly, if you (a) you're not sure you want to try for a SCOTUS clerkship and, more importantly, (b) realistically have a shot at a SCOTUS clerkship (i.e., graduated #1, 2 or 3 at a T14, or high in your class at HYS with the right faculty connections), then you shouldn't do the additional COA clerkship.
Not the anon poster who asked this question, but I'm confused about the advice given here. You're saying that if you realistically have a shot at a SCOTUS clerkship, then you shouldn't do the second COA feeder clerkship? That seems weird.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by PrideandGlory1776 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:10 pm

Prestige homie
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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Citizen Genet » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
ClerkAdvisor wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Figure this is a good place to ask this. If you have borderline SCOTUS credentials, like clerking, have the option of a second CoA gig for a feeder, but you're undecided whether you really want to SCOTUS clerk, is there any downside to taking the second CoA?
Yes, there are downsides to a second COA:

- You lose out on additional money
- You come in further behind your class peers without developing any additional skills (i.e., a district court clerkship makes sense on top of a COA, because you learn a ton about litigation)

Honestly, if you (a) you're not sure you want to try for a SCOTUS clerkship and, more importantly, (b) realistically have a shot at a SCOTUS clerkship (i.e., graduated #1, 2 or 3 at a T14, or high in your class at HYS with the right faculty connections), then you shouldn't do the additional COA clerkship.
Not the anon poster who asked this question, but I'm confused about the advice given here. You're saying that if you realistically have a shot at a SCOTUS clerkship, then you shouldn't do the second COA feeder clerkship? That seems weird.
I'm guessing ClerkAdvisor meant "if you're not sure you... realistically have a shot at a SCOTUSc clerkship."

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Doorkeeper » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:07 am

Coming from a T50 school, and not HYSCCN, and going on the academic job market, a successful (T-30 for public law, T-60 for private law) publication record is generally much more important than a second CoA judge on your resume. Honestly, taking the year off or working as a VAP or on a fellowship to create 2-3 publications would probably be MUCH more valuable to you.

Also, this is highly CoA judge dependent. Some judges have great connections in academia and have a myriad of clerks in academia, but others will not. If this second CoA judge isn't in the former category, then it might not be worth your time compared to other things that you could be doing for the year to make you a more desirable candidate at the meat market.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:35 am

Wanted to revive this thread as I contemplate a second clerkship and hope to get more advice.

General situation: 2L; high rank at T-25; high law review position next year; will be clerking for a non-feeder on the 2/9/D.C. Circuit the year after graduation. I honestly never considered the idea of second clerkship while applying, but some professors and students have asked me to consider it. And, similarly to the original OP, a semi-feeder from a non-2/9/D.C. Circuit offered me a job for the following year after s/he found out I already accepted elsewhere. I could also consider applying elsewhere for the second clerkship, too, I suppose.

Career goals: Plan on working in private practice litigation to start. Not sure whether I'd like to go for BigLaw or a boutique in my area of interest. At this point I may want to keep the door to academia unlocked, but I'm not necessarily gunning for that. And, while professors have tossed out the "SCOTUS" word and I'd of course happily accept that opportunity, I also realize that my chances are very, very slim, and I don't want to make a decision about the second clerkship based solely on bumping that prospect a couple percentage points higher.

Hence why I'm trying to figure out the remaining benefits/drawbacks of a second COA clerkship.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:40 pm

Also interested in this. First clerkship is for a circuit judge in a flyover area. Second COA clerkship would be 2/9. The second COA is in an area I would like to eventually practice. Assuming I go biglaw after my second COA clerkship, is it worth it?

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Re: What is the benefit of a second COA clerkship?

Post by rpupkin » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Also interested in this. First clerkship is for a circuit judge in a flyover area. Second COA clerkship would be 2/9. The second COA is in an area I would like to eventually practice. Assuming I go biglaw after my second COA clerkship, is it worth it?
I don't think so.

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