Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Interesting, alright looks like I'll keep plugging away then. Thanks for the advice.

[rpupkin]

If your goal is academia, I think COA can help.

I'm not disagreeing, but could someone explain the theory of why a COA clerkship helps for academia? I know that there's a strong correlation (i.e., most academics did a COA clerkship), but is there any kind of meaningful causation?

I realize that you've got a huge leg up if you clerk for SCOTUS (and, of course, SCOTUS clerks have a bunch of other things going for them—otherwise, they wouldn't be SCOTUS clerks). But SCOTUS clerkships aside, it seems to me that academia hiring is driven primarily by the candidate's publishing record. And it's not clear to me what a run-of-the-mill COA clerkship has to do with that.

Is the idea that fellowship programs look for a COA clerkship as a threshold credential, and that such programs are the entry point into academia for most folks who aren't instant rock stars?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I agree that publishing is absolutely the way to get into academia, but glancing at the Climenkos and Bigelows shows that the vast majority of them have COA clerkships, so that's really the only reason I'd advise COA. I agree it's likely correlation in that those kinds of fellowship programs select for COAs (shiny and prestigious rather than providing useful training for academia). I haven't looked too closely into this recently, but I believe that a huge percentage of new t-t law profs are coming out of fellowship programs (or some VAP programs designed to serve a similar purpose). Those programs provide a lot of opportunity to develop a research agenda and get mentoring from spiffy academics, so if the COA is instrumental to getting in, then it's a good credential.

COA is also much more cerebral than DCt, and it may be that people have a bit more of an opportunity to get going on a research agenda during a COA than a DCt. (Barring one of the fellows I looked up who clerked for Kozinski of course.)

Also frankly we can't rule out the compulsion among such a crowd to collect all varieties of academic accolades out there.

(I would say that of the ones without COA, many were the PhD haters, which is of course another way to work up a research agenda. And there were a few people with neither so none of these are necessary, but also likely not sufficient.)

Edit: should have added that many weren't run of the mill COAs (see Kozinski), but I don't know enough to know that all were feeders.

Edit 2: which isn't to say that the OP of this question must do a COA or their chances are shot, either, though it seems a little early to give up - if they got 2 interviews they're not unhirable.

[rpupkin]

Thanks, Nony, for taking the time to indulge my idle musings. What you write makes sense.

[bbridge]

In your experience, when do judges generally decide to extend interview invitations vis-a-vis when they post their opening on OSCAR? Do they post and then wait a few weeks/months to let a bunch of applications build up or do they post and shortly thereafter being to regularly check for anything they like?

[A. Nony Mouse]

As with everything to do with clerk hiring: totally depends on the judge.

[lavarman84]

In your experience, when do judges generally decide to extend interview invitations vis-a-vis when they post their opening on OSCAR? Do they post and then wait a few weeks/months to let a bunch of applications build up or do they post and shortly thereafter being to regularly check for anything they like?

I've gotten invitations to interview within 24 to 72 hours, and I've gotten invitations to interviews 4-6 weeks later. I know some got invitations months later. As Nony said, it depends on the judge. I just send in the application and forget about it. If I hear something, great. If I don't, no big deal.

[Anonymous User]

In your experience, when do judges generally decide to extend interview invitations vis-a-vis when they post their opening on OSCAR? Do they post and then wait a few weeks/months to let a bunch of applications build up or do they post and shortly thereafter being to regularly check for anything they like?

Of the 4 interviews I got, 2 were within days of applying, one was 2-3 weeks later, and one was 6 months after applying (and that judge had hired multiple clerks in the interim). You just never know.

[mjb447]

One judge I interviewed with said that he was mostly planning to wait to interview people later, but he saw me early because he was attending a sitting where I was located. You just never know.

[Anonymous User]

Incoming law clerk here. I'm currently slated to take the NY bar next week, and then I'm doing back-to-back clerkships (CoA and then D.Ct). Wondering if it's worth it to sit for multiple bar exams before heading into private practice. Has anyone ITT have taken another state's bar exam in between clerkships/at the tail end of a clerkship?

The work in my chambers is supposed to be very, very light during the summer months, so I was planning on maybe taking one of the CA/FL/TX bar exams (ties to 2 out of the 3, but no real desire to practice in any of those locations at this point in my life). I don't think any of those states have adopted the UBE and I'd bet that all are unlikely to.

Summered in D.C./looking to return to D.C. but want to be as marketable as possible. I guess I just want to know whether it's worth it and whether biglaw firms will reimbursement bar fees from both states

[grand inquisitor]

i found a 2d state's bar exam while clerking was really easy to pull off so long as your judge is cool with you taking 2 or 3 days off for the exam. i think you should shoot to do the february bar exam since the MBE shit will be fresh in your mind.

[Anonymous User]

i found a 2d state's bar exam while clerking was really easy to pull off so long as your judge is cool with you taking 2 or 3 days off for the exam. i think you should shoot to do the february bar exam since the MBE shit will be fresh in your mind.

Thanks for the info! Question: Do you think most big law firms will reimburse the expenses for the second bar and/or pay the annual bar dues for both?

I know I probably sound like a cheapskate, but I'd rather not pay any annual bar dues/eat the cost for the second bar if I don't have to.

[CurvedSurface]

Incoming law clerk here. I'm currently slated to take the NY bar next week, and then I'm doing back-to-back clerkships (CoA and then D.Ct). Wondering if it's worth it to sit for multiple bar exams before heading into private practice. Has anyone ITT have taken another state's bar exam in between clerkships/at the tail end of a clerkship?

The work in my chambers is supposed to be very, very light during the summer months, so I was planning on maybe taking one of the CA/FL/TX bar exams (ties to 2 out of the 3, but no real desire to practice in any of those locations at this point in my life). I don't think any of those states have adopted the UBE and I'd bet that all are unlikely to.

Summered in D.C./looking to return to D.C. but want to be as marketable as possible. I guess I just want to know whether it's worth it and whether biglaw firms will reimbursement bar fees from both states

Why would you want to be marketable for markets in which you don't want to practice? Assuming that it is a good idea to take a second bar exam (more experienced folks can weigh in on that), why don't you take the bar exam in a non-UBE jurisdiction in which you would be open to practicing?

[Anonymous User]

Incoming law clerk here. I'm currently slated to take the NY bar next week, and then I'm doing back-to-back clerkships (CoA and then D.Ct). Wondering if it's worth it to sit for multiple bar exams before heading into private practice. Has anyone ITT have taken another state's bar exam in between clerkships/at the tail end of a clerkship?

The work in my chambers is supposed to be very, very light during the summer months, so I was planning on maybe taking one of the CA/FL/TX bar exams (ties to 2 out of the 3, but no real desire to practice in any of those locations at this point in my life). I don't think any of those states have adopted the UBE and I'd bet that all are unlikely to.

Summered in D.C./looking to return to D.C. but want to be as marketable as possible. I guess I just want to know whether it's worth it and whether biglaw firms will reimbursement bar fees from both states

Why would you want to be marketable for markets in which you don't want to practice? Assuming that it is a good idea to take a second bar exam (more experienced folks can weigh in on that), why don't you take the bar exam in a non-UBE jurisdiction in which you would be open to practicing?

Ah, I think I misspoke. As of right now, I really only see myself practicing in DC. One of my clerkships is SDNY (not that it matters), and my SO will be working in NY post-bar, so the NY bar made sense, especially since it could be transferred to DC.

I do have family in Texas/Florida/CA though, and I could see myself working there if I ever decided to leave DC. I figure that It'll be easier to just get barred somewhere else now, just in case. And maybe it would be a benefit to the firm's practice somehow? idk

[Anonymous User]

i found a 2d state's bar exam while clerking was really easy to pull off so long as your judge is cool with you taking 2 or 3 days off for the exam. i think you should shoot to do the february bar exam since the MBE shit will be fresh in your mind.

Thanks for the info! Question: Do you think most big law firms will reimburse the expenses for the second bar and/or pay the annual bar dues for both?

I know I probably sound like a cheapskate, but I'd rather not pay any annual bar dues/eat the cost for the second bar if I don't have to.

A friend of mine did this (took the NY bar, works/barred in CA), and his V10 firm wouldn't pay the yearly NY bar dues. He indicated it might have been different if he was practicing regularly in NY and could justify it that way, but I think he mainly got barred in NY as an exit option (and firm probably realized that).

[grand inquisitor]

you can just go inactive in the irrelevant jurisdictions if you're concerned about the dues (though you still have to pay some $, it's not full price $$$).

[OutCold]

you can just go inactive in the irrelevant jurisdictions if you're concerned about the dues (though you still have to pay some $, it's not full price $$$).

You can't go inactive in NY as far as I know.

[Lavitz]

I do have family in Texas/Florida/CA though, and I could see myself working there if I ever decided to leave DC. I figure that It'll be easier to just get barred somewhere else now, just in case. And maybe it would be a benefit to the firm's practice somehow? idk

Taking another bar exam just because you could see yourself practicing there in the distant future sounds like a dubious proposition to me. I don't see any benefit to the firm. And what if you decide you want to practice in one of the other two states you could see yourself practicing in? You'd probably feel compelled to work in the state you got admitted to. I'd spend the precious downtime in the summer relaxing instead.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 1L and finishing a federal district court externship. What is the etiquette for thanking the judge and clerks? The judge is out my last week, so I will be unable to thank and say goodbye in person.

Do you send a card after? Leave one behind? Email? Everyone has been nice and professional, but somewhat aloof, so I'm just not sure what to do.

[rpupkin]

I am a 1L and finishing a federal district court externship. What is the etiquette for thanking the judge and clerks? The judge is out my last week, so I will be unable to thank and say goodbye in person.

Do you send a card after? Leave one behind? Email? Everyone has been nice and professional, but somewhat aloof, so I'm just not sure what to do.

I'm lazy about stuff like thank-you notes, but if you're not: I suggest sending a handwritten thank-you note to the judge. As for the clerks, you can just communicate your thanks in person. Or if you don't feel comfortable doing that, an email would be fine too.

By the way, don't lose sleep over this. I don't think there is general "etiquette" expectation for this situation.

[mjb447]

I am a 1L and finishing a federal district court externship. What is the etiquette for thanking the judge and clerks? The judge is out my last week, so I will be unable to thank and say goodbye in person.

Do you send a card after? Leave one behind? Email? Everyone has been nice and professional, but somewhat aloof, so I'm just not sure what to do.

If you'd prefer to have this conversation in person, you could just have it right before the judge leaves. Could thank clerks in person as well.

Otherwise, I think any of your ideas would probably be fine (unless the judge is old-school and uncomfortable with email). I like cards because they make better mementos, but YMMV, particularly if the judge has been aloof.

Just to get this out there, notes/emails/conversations like this are nice but I don't really notice if I don't get one, and I don't think my judges do either.

(Generally scooped)

[Anonymous User]

OP on thank you question here. Thank you.

[Anonymous User]

How comfortable/excited did you all feel about clerking for a judge coming out of the interview? I recently interviewed for a CoA clerkship and left the interview with mixed feelings. Most of the former clerks I spoke to had good things to say. However, the judge was distracted during most of the interview and didn't seem super organized. On the one hand, I'm worried that I may be overreacting to what I observed during the interview. On the other hand, if I do get an offer, I don't want to commit a year of my life to a clerkship I don't feel too confident about.

[mjb447]

How comfortable/excited did you all feel about clerking for a judge coming out of the interview? I recently interviewed for a CoA clerkship and left the interview with mixed feelings. Most of the former clerks I spoke to had good things to say. However, the judge was distracted during most of the interview and didn't seem super organized. On the one hand, I'm worried that I may be overreacting to what I observed during the interview. On the other hand, if I do get an offer, I don't want to commit a year of my life to a clerkship I don't feel too confident about.

"Most of" the former clerks had good things to say - did anyone have bad things to say, particularly re organization? I wouldn't read too much into one disorganized interview, but, given the incentives at work, anything less than unanimously glowing reviews can be (but is not necessarily) cause for concern.

ETA not saying that it should be a deal breaker even if a judge isn't organized - you'll have to evaluate how important that is to you, what your options are, why you want to clerk, etc.

[rpupkin]

How comfortable/excited did you all feel about clerking for a judge coming out of the interview? I recently interviewed for a CoA clerkship and left the interview with mixed feelings. Most of the former clerks I spoke to had good things to say. However, the judge was distracted during most of the interview and didn't seem super organized.

There are stories about COA judges who are super efficient and organized. These stories are notable because, well, most COA judges aren't super efficient and organized. In my experience, the typical COA judge is significantly less organized than the typical law-firm partner. An active COA judge has four full-time clerks plus an assistant—all of whom are dedicated full-time to helping this one judge. Frankly, a COA judge doesn't have a lot of incentive to be organized.

The fact that your judge seemed distracted is a little more worrisome. But there are plenty of COA judges—including a few who are highly respected by the legal community—who spend a lot of time "in their heads." It can be difficult to have a casual conversation with some of these judges. If that bothers you a lot, then maybe reconsider your interest. But I wouldn't worry about it.