Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[mjb447]

I've accepted an interview with a judge, but after talking to a few of the former clerks, I've heard some not great things about the work environment that make me question whether I want to work there. What do I do?

Are you asking whether you should withdraw or how to go about it? The latter is easy - you can pretty much cancel an interview at any time as long as you don't want to work for that judge. Most chambers won't ask why, and you can always cite "personal reasons" or something similarly vague.

It's a lot harder to determine in a vacuum whether you should. Don't know what your other options might be or how desperate you are to clerk; don't know what in particular is bad about the work environment (is the judge very exacting? a screamer? extremely icy and standoffish? are other chambers staff toxic?) or how strongly you've been warned by how many people; don't know if the judge will give you a good reference going forward even if the judge is difficult to work with. I didn't put a lot of stock in a few bad accounts when I was applying and it's worked out okay, but that's not everyone's experience at all (look at the "does anyone just *hate* their clerkship?" thread for examples).

[lavarman84]

I've accepted an interview with a judge, but after talking to a few of the former clerks, I've heard some not great things about the work environment that make me question whether I want to work there. What do I do?

If you don't want to work for the judge, cancel the interview. You could also go ahead with the interview, scope things out, and possibly withdraw at a later time.

[Barrred]

I've accepted an interview with a judge, but after talking to a few of the former clerks, I've heard some not great things about the work environment that make me question whether I want to work there. What do I do?

In terms of acceptability/not burning bridges: not applying > canceling before interview > canceling after interview but before offer > declining offer (this is the only one that is wholly unacceptable in my book). If you wouldn't accept an offer from that judge, call chambers to cancel as soon as possible, and vaguely cite a "change in [your] personal situation/circumstances." Don't interview. There is a chance you might get offered on the spot and be forced to accept, or decline and get black-balled.

[Anonymous User]

Was below median for most of law school but had a strongish 3L year and am sitting around median at lower T14. I'm assuming most people here are federal district or COA clerks but any idea of what it takes to be competitive for magistrate clerkships or possibly flyover district courts (if you have ties)? Still assuming I'm not very competitive but curious.

[FascinatedWanderer]

I think it varies widely. For well respected judges in major districts, could be as competitive as many D .Ct. in less desirable locations (think Gorenstein in SDNY), especially if the mag gets a lot of trials by consent. In flyover districts where mags don't handle much I'd imagine clerks run the gamut up to and including bottom tier law grads who had no other options.

[Anonymous User]

federal mag clerk in a non-elite but major city here. I was a MVP grad, 3.2, no judicial experience but a fellowship dealing with federal litigation before this job. Looking around, mag clerks tend to be either students who did well from local schools or okay from higher ranked schools. Apply widely and you'll probably get something with a magistrate, they're hard to get, but not super hard.

[jrf12886]

I've accepted an interview with a judge, but after talking to a few of the former clerks, I've heard some not great things about the work environment that make me question whether I want to work there. What do I do?

In terms of acceptability/not burning bridges: not applying > canceling before interview > canceling after interview but before offer > declining offer (this is the only one that is wholly unacceptable in my book). If you wouldn't accept an offer from that judge, call chambers to cancel as soon as possible, and vaguely cite a "change in [your] personal situation/circumstances." Don't interview. There is a chance you might get offered on the spot and be forced to accept, or decline and get black-balled.

I agree with Barred's ranking of your options. If I were you, I would consider going ahead the with the interview to scope out how things really are in chambers. You should be able to get a general feeling from the clerks' demeanor and the judge's personality. If things seem really bad, you can call and withdraw the next day. There is a risk that the judge gives you an offer on the spot, but I think the risk is small enough that it’s worth taking that chance, especially if this is your only interview. If that happens and you don't want the job, say you'd like a day to discuss with your family/significant other, and then decline. This may anger the judge, but if you've decided to not accept, it doesn't really matter if you burn that bridge (unless you are applying to other judges in that District and you think it could get around that you declined an offer--again, I think that's a small enough risk that you shouldn't make a decision based on it).

[lolwat]

I've accepted an interview with a judge, but after talking to a few of the former clerks, I've heard some not great things about the work environment that make me question whether I want to work there. What do I do?

In terms of acceptability/not burning bridges: not applying > canceling before interview > canceling after interview but before offer > declining offer (this is the only one that is wholly unacceptable in my book). If you wouldn't accept an offer from that judge, call chambers to cancel as soon as possible, and vaguely cite a "change in [your] personal situation/circumstances." Don't interview. There is a chance you might get offered on the spot and be forced to accept, or decline and get black-balled.

This. And the original question is so damn vague. There's a huge difference between "not great things" and "make me question whether I want to work there" versus "terrible things" and "definitely wouldn't want to work there if true." Clerkships really aren't -- and shouldn't be -- one of those things where you just see how it goes and then decline an offer or quit if you don't like it.

This may anger the judge, but if you've decided to not accept, it doesn't really matter if you burn that bridge (unless you are applying to other judges in that District and you think it could get around that you declined an offer--again, I think that's a small enough risk that you shouldn't make a decision based on it).

Based on personal knowledge/experience I can tell you that some judges have very far-reaching influence even outside of their district.

I think it varies widely. For well respected judges in major districts, could be as competitive as many D .Ct. in less desirable locations (think Gorenstein in SDNY), especially if the mag gets a lot of trials by consent. In flyover districts where mags don't handle much I'd imagine clerks run the gamut up to and including bottom tier law grads who had no other options.

I think the problem is everyone assumes d.ct./mags in flyover districts will gladly dip to median at low T14s just because they're T14s. I'm sure it's true for some -- that might be part of why the above 3.2gpa MVP anon has a clerkship I guess -- but I don't think any of the judges in the district I clerked would have looked twice at a median kid at any school. They always get their pick of the top 1-5 from the local school(s) that want to stay in the area.

Doesn't mean the anon asking about mag clerkships shouldn't apply anyway, but I think some people are more optimstic than I am about competitiveness with flyover districts.

[Anonymous User]

federal mag clerk in a non-elite but major city here. I was a MVP grad, 3.2, no judicial experience but a fellowship dealing with federal litigation before this job. Looking around, mag clerks tend to be either students who did well from local schools or okay from higher ranked schools. Apply widely and you'll probably get something with a magistrate, they're hard to get, but not super hard.

Anon asking about mag. clerkships before. I am biglaw bound and would mostly be interested in a mag. clerkship as an out from biglaw/path into government, with an outside likelihood of entering back into private practice. Do you think the experiences and skills you've gained as a mag. clerk will be transferable to most other litigation positions?

[A. Nony Mouse]

I think it varies widely. For well respected judges in major districts, could be as competitive as many D .Ct. in less desirable locations (think Gorenstein in SDNY), especially if the mag gets a lot of trials by consent. In flyover districts where mags don't handle much I'd imagine clerks run the gamut up to and including bottom tier law grads who had no other options.

I think this is way too dismissive. Top students from bottom tier schools, maybe, or a wider range of students from better schools. There are going to be decent local candidates for pretty much every magistrate.

[Anonymous User]

federal mag clerk in a non-elite but major city here. I was a MVP grad, 3.2, no judicial experience but a fellowship dealing with federal litigation before this job. Looking around, mag clerks tend to be either students who did well from local schools or okay from higher ranked schools. Apply widely and you'll probably get something with a magistrate, they're hard to get, but not super hard.

Anon asking about mag. clerkships before. I am biglaw bound and would mostly be interested in a mag. clerkship as an out from biglaw/path into government, with an outside likelihood of entering back into private practice. Do you think the experiences and skills you've gained as a mag. clerk will be transferable to most other litigation positions?

MVP anon from above. I've never worked in biglaw so take this with a grain of salt, but I think going from biglaw to mag clerk with the hopes of ending up in government work is pretty risky, and not a risk that I would take. First, if you do a mag clerkship, you have a fixed amount of time to find your next job, unlike biglaw. Second, a mag clerkship shows interest in public service and experience with federal lit, but those seem like pretty modest benefits to me. I'm confident that my mag clerkship has improved my prospects for the types of government jobs I'm hoping to get, and I think the skills I've learned are pretty valuable, but I doubt it's going to be easy getting my next job. If you're targeting a particular market, maybe that changes the equation. I don't want to stay in this city after my clerkship, but if I did, I feel a lot better about my post-clerkship career.

In flyover districts where mags don't handle much I'd imagine clerks run the gamut up to and including bottom tier law grads who had no other options.

Nah, it's a federal job that pays $100k for people with 3+ years experience, they don't have trouble getting good applicants. The mag clerks in my building who aren't from top 20ish schools were top students on LR or attorneys with several years firm/gov experience.

[Anonymous User]

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[Anonymous User]

I've accepted an interview with a judge, but after talking to a few of the former clerks, I've heard some not great things about the work environment that make me question whether I want to work there. What do I do?

The same exact thing happened with me, and I was unsure what to do -- I know I didn't want to work with the judge but felt like I would get an offer. I called my clerkship adviser and asked if the law school would have a problem with me cancelling the interview. They didn't, so I sent a vague email to the judge's secretary saying something like thanks for the opportunity, but my circumstances have changed such that I can no longer interview with the judge. It was totally fine.

[Anonymous User]

Probably insignificant question: should I mention, in one sentence, that I'm PI-focused in my cover letters? Have a mag clerkship, but looking for DC / CoA's for 2019-2020. I usually do if the OSCAR posting mentions something about liking applicants with a commitment to public service, but I was thinking about just leaving it in there for all of them.

[Anonymous User]

This might be a really stupid question but I'm wondering.. so I'm starting clerkship very soon and moving to a new city. I understand conflict of interest rules prevent me from engaging with parties involved in litigation generally, but am I still allowed to hang out with my friends who are lawyers in the area?

[mjb447]

Probably insignificant question: should I mention, in one sentence, that I'm PI-focused in my cover letters? Have a mag clerkship, but looking for DC / CoA's for 2019-2020. I usually do if the OSCAR posting mentions something about liking applicants with a commitment to public service, but I was thinking about just leaving it in there for all of them.

I did something like this, at least in a lot of my letters. I think it's unlikely to harm you with most judges, and it'll help judges get to know you a bit better before meeting you.

This might be a really stupid question but I'm wondering.. so I'm starting clerkship very soon and moving to a new city. I understand conflict of interest rules prevent me from engaging with parties involved in litigation generally, but am I still allowed to hang out with my friends who are lawyers in the area?

Yeah, just don't talk about anything confidential that goes on in chambers.

[Anonymous User]

I clerked at (my state's) SSC and am now 9 months in at a mid-size local firm making well below market but also working 8:30-5:30 with little weekend work (and I'm married with kids). Now a 1-year clerkship starting this summer has popped up with a local fed district judge. I'm of two minds. (1) Great opportunity; (2) I don't want to job hunt again that much. If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

I'm sorry that this is not a great question but I haven't had (and don't have) much time to mull this over before I need to act or sit out.

[A. Nony Mouse]

would your firm take you back after? (It sounds like no but I wanted to check.)

[Anonymous User]

It's not the kind of firm to have a track record (and they have a significant lack of standard policies). I have obviously not asked.

[rpupkin]

I clerked at (my state's) SSC and am now 9 months in at a mid-size local firm making well below market but also working 8:30-5:30 with little weekend work (and I'm married with kids). Now a 1-year clerkship starting this summer has popped up with a local fed district judge. I'm of two minds. (1) Great opportunity; (2) I don't want to job hunt again that much. If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

If I was happy at my firm and could see myself working there for several years, then I would not leave for a clerkship.

[los blancos]

Yeah, don't think this q can be answered without knowing what your long-term goals are.

[LET'S GET IT]

What exactly is well below market? Without more info, I think I'd stay put unless I was unhappy at the firm.

[Barrred]

It seems pretty pointless to go do a second clerkship if you are just going to go back to your below-market firm after. If you like it at the firm, stay. If you dont, using a clerkship to leave and trade-up to a market-paying firm doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[Anonymous User]

It's about half market (though bonuses are variable from about half a standard biglaw bonus to about 3x).

[lavarman84]

It's about half market (though bonuses are variable from about half a standard biglaw bonus to about 3x).

~$100k doesn't sound bad for a 50ish hour per week job. If you like the people you're working with and aren't in a really high COL area, I think you're in a pretty good situation.