Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[mjb447]

+1 for it meaningfully increases your overall chances but will depend on the kinds of things FW listed.

[OutCold]

The COA judge I ultimately clerked for called my district judge shortly after my interview. From what I gather, that was the deciding factor. My district was in the same circuit, so the judges were familiar with each other, though they had not had much contact previously.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone else been finding that their externs are woefully incompetent? I get that they're still in law school but jeez...

[mjb447]

Has anyone else been finding that their externs are woefully incompetent? I get that they're still in law school but jeez...

Yes. I mean, I don't really expect them to be a net positive in terms of productivity - they're very new to law, they're not in chambers long enough to learn how we do things, and it's supposed to be for their own education anyway. That said, I've had a surprising number who seemed unable to write a grammatically correct sentence.

[Lincoln]

Has anyone else been finding that their externs are woefully incompetent? I get that they're still in law school but jeez...

2/5 were decent. 3/5 were so bad it was unbelievable.

[jrf12886]

Has anyone else been finding that their externs are woefully incompetent? I get that they're still in law school but jeez...

Yea, never once got my lunch or coffee.

[ggocat]

I don't really expect them to be a net positive in terms of productivity

This has been my expectation and experience for the past 5+ years. Maybe one or two have been useful.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The clerks at my 1L judicial internship told me that the judge had had such a bad experience with 2 interns from U of Chicago the previous year that he nearly didn't take any interns that summer. (This is really just me egregiously gloating about the fact that the Chicago interns sucked but he ended up super happy with us plebs from the local school.)

[rpupkin]

The clerks at my 1L judicial internship told me that the judge had had such a bad experience with 2 interns from U of Chicago the previous year that he nearly didn't take any interns that summer. (This is really just me egregiously gloating about the fact that the Chicago interns sucked but he ended up super happy with us plebs from the local school.)

Was the problem poor work product? Or was it a personality thing?

[A. Nony Mouse]

The clerks at my 1L judicial internship told me that the judge had had such a bad experience with 2 interns from U of Chicago the previous year that he nearly didn't take any interns that summer. (This is really just me egregiously gloating about the fact that the Chicago interns sucked but he ended up super happy with us plebs from the local school.)

Was the problem poor work product? Or was it a personality thing?

I think there was a little bit of personality, but primarily they couldn't write at all (to be fair to the interns, my impression is that legal writing at Chicago is taught mostly (exclusively?) by fellows who are often more interested in/qualified for getting an academic job than the actual nitty gritty of teaching writing, so their training in legal writing sounds very hit or miss). And also to be fair, this is just what I was told - no idea how true it is.

[Anonymous User]

The clerks at my 1L judicial internship told me that the judge had had such a bad experience with 2 interns from U of Chicago the previous year that he nearly didn't take any interns that summer. (This is really just me egregiously gloating about the fact that the Chicago interns sucked but he ended up super happy with us plebs from the local school.)

Though to be fair, in general I think the quality between the local TT kids and T6 kids is pretty staggering. We get a lot of externs from the local school ranked 40-60, and they have writing samples that got As in their legal writing class that would have been B+s at best where I went to school.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The clerks at my 1L judicial internship told me that the judge had had such a bad experience with 2 interns from U of Chicago the previous year that he nearly didn't take any interns that summer. (This is really just me egregiously gloating about the fact that the Chicago interns sucked but he ended up super happy with us plebs from the local school.)

Though to be fair, in general I think the quality between the local TT kids and T6 kids is pretty staggering. We get a lot of externs from the local school ranked 40-60, and they have writing samples that got As in their legal writing class that would have been B+s at best where I went to school.

Well, thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I didn't mean that as an insult to those who can actually write. Just making an observation about the relative writing abilities of the 2 populations writ large.

[Anonymous User]

Plot twist: in my chambers, the best externs are the top kids from local schools, not the T6ers who worked here over the summer.

[lavarman84]

Plot twist: in my chambers, the best externs are the top kids from local schools, not the T6ers who worked here over the summer.

I wouldn't consider that surprising. This might rustle some jimmies, but I have a feeling that the top kids at decent law schools (basically, law schools that have some admission standards) are on par with the kids in the top 10% (and I'm being conservative) at top law schools.

[mjb447]

Plot twist: in my chambers, the best externs are the top kids from local schools, not the T6ers who worked here over the summer.

Same.

[Anonymous User]

I've never had the opportunity to observer the absolute top kids at the local schools. So far we've had guys in the top 20-30%. I'd gauge them as being slightly weaker than median T6ers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the valedictorian/salutatorian at this level of school were comparable to T14 top 10% kids.

[lavarman84]

I've never had the opportunity to observer the absolute top kids at the local schools. So far we've had guys in the top 20-30%. I'd gauge them as being slightly weaker than median T6ers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the valedictorian/salutatorian at this level of school were comparable to T14 top 10% kids.

If we're talking #1 or #2 in their class, they're comparable to just about anyone.

[FascinatedWanderer]

I've never had the opportunity to observer the absolute top kids at the local schools. So far we've had guys in the top 20-30%. I'd gauge them as being slightly weaker than median T6ers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the valedictorian/salutatorian at this level of school were comparable to T14 top 10% kids.

If we're talking #1 or #2 in their class, they're comparable to just about anyone.

I think that's true only up to a certain level of school. Below that, given the realities of grading on a curve, finishing #1 really doesn't say much given the low caliber of the competition.

[lavarman84]

I've never had the opportunity to observer the absolute top kids at the local schools. So far we've had guys in the top 20-30%. I'd gauge them as being slightly weaker than median T6ers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the valedictorian/salutatorian at this level of school were comparable to T14 top 10% kids.

If we're talking #1 or #2 in their class, they're comparable to just about anyone.

I think that's true only up to a certain level of school. Below that, given the realities of grading on a curve, finishing #1 really doesn't say much given the low caliber of the competition.

That was already stated earlier. Obviously, I'm not talking about schools that take anyone with a pulse like Cooley.

[Anonymous User]

I've never had the opportunity to observer the absolute top kids at the local schools. So far we've had guys in the top 20-30%. I'd gauge them as being slightly weaker than median T6ers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the valedictorian/salutatorian at this level of school were comparable to T14 top 10% kids.

If we're talking #1 or #2 in their class, they're comparable to just about anyone.

I think that's true only up to a certain level of school. Below that, given the realities of grading on a curve, finishing #1 really doesn't say much given the low caliber of the competition.

That was already stated earlier. Obviously, I'm not talking about schools that take anyone with a pulse like Cooley.

I think we just draw the line in different places. By my thinking, once you're outside the top 30 law schools and admissions rates creep into 40%+ you have to be well north of top 10% before your performance convinces me of your competence.

[lavarman84]

I've never had the opportunity to observer the absolute top kids at the local schools. So far we've had guys in the top 20-30%. I'd gauge them as being slightly weaker than median T6ers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the valedictorian/salutatorian at this level of school were comparable to T14 top 10% kids.

If we're talking #1 or #2 in their class, they're comparable to just about anyone.

I think that's true only up to a certain level of school. Below that, given the realities of grading on a curve, finishing #1 really doesn't say much given the low caliber of the competition.

That was already stated earlier. Obviously, I'm not talking about schools that take anyone with a pulse like Cooley.

I think we just draw the line in different places. By my thinking, once you're outside the top 30 law schools and admissions rates creep into 40%+ you have to be well north of top 10% before your performance convinces me of your competence.

Why not the top 28 law schools and admissions rates above 37%?

You might have a preftige problem.

[FascinatedWanderer]

I've never had the opportunity to observer the absolute top kids at the local schools. So far we've had guys in the top 20-30%. I'd gauge them as being slightly weaker than median T6ers.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the valedictorian/salutatorian at this level of school were comparable to T14 top 10% kids.

If we're talking #1 or #2 in their class, they're comparable to just about anyone.

I think that's true only up to a certain level of school. Below that, given the realities of grading on a curve, finishing #1 really doesn't say much given the low caliber of the competition.

That was already stated earlier. Obviously, I'm not talking about schools that take anyone with a pulse like Cooley.

I think we just draw the line in different places. By my thinking, once you're outside the top 30 law schools and admissions rates creep into 40%+ you have to be well north of top 10% before your performance convinces me of your competence.

Why not the top 28 law schools and admissions rates above 37%?

You might have a preftige problem.

As a mental heuristic you have to draw the line somewhere. The fact of the matter is that huge chunk of law school students are those who had no idea what to do with their lives. They have massively inflated GPAs from bullshit majors like psychology or communications or "social studies" and on top of that a lot of them come from undergrad institutions that are less than rigorous.

So if a law school is accepting fully 40% of these applicants, well...

[lavarman84]

As a mental heuristic you have to draw the line somewhere. The fact of the matter is that huge chunk of law school students are those who had no idea what to do with their lives. They have massively inflated GPAs from bullshit majors like psychology or communications or "social studies" and on top of that a lot of them come from undergrad institutions that are less than rigorous.

So if a law school is accepting fully 40% of these applicants, well...

Having to draw the line someone and drawing the line in an arbitrary manner for a bar as low as "competence" are two pretty different things.

But I'm not surprised people feel that way. It's a matter of perspective.

[FascinatedWanderer]

As a mental heuristic you have to draw the line somewhere. The fact of the matter is that huge chunk of law school students are those who had no idea what to do with their lives. They have massively inflated GPAs from bullshit majors like psychology or communications or "social studies" and on top of that a lot of them come from undergrad institutions that are less than rigorous.

So if a law school is accepting fully 40% of these applicants, well...

Having to draw the line someone and drawing the line in an arbitrary manner for a bar as low as "competence" are two pretty different things.

But I'm not surprised people feel that way. It's a matter of perspective.

To be clear, I didn't mean competence as a human being in some larger sense. I meant competence to do the work of the court and conduct legal analysis of sufficiently high quality.