Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Yes, but it's hard to say.

For one, I thought I nailed it. Really hit it off with the judge, we just shot the breeze for a while and then he gave me a tour of the courtroom. Got the offer a couple of days later.

For my circuit clerkship, I though the interview with the judge was fine, nothing special. I got along very well with the clerks. Based on past interviews I expected a rejection, but he offered me the next day.

[mjb447]

for those that got offers: did you come out of the interview thinking you would get an offer?

with big law interviews, i always kind of knew how the interview went and I could accurately predict whether i would get a CB or offer with some level of certainty (maybe 85% accuracy).

I realize there are way fewer clerkship positions than big law associate positions so this may not be true for clerkships. But for those with clerkship offers, did you basically come out of interviewing thinking that you rocked it ?

More the opposite, actually. My way of explaining it was that I had few obvious interviewing missteps - it was mostly just judges asking tough and sometimes unexpected questions that I wish I'd answered better. Judges like that are probably tough for everyone, though, and some people are better able to differentiate themselves in that situation than in a more low-key interview. I know I often come off kind of stiff and formal initially, which probably seems less out of place during a cross-examination than a buddy-buddy get-to-know-you session.

Of course, it also has everything to do with who you're up against, and you'll probably never know anything about that.

[DogDay90]

In my opinion, it's tough to tell if you're going to get an offer, but easier to tell if you're NOT going to get an offer. I had three interviews for federal appellate positions. I tanked the first one and strongly suspected that I wouldn't get an offer. The next two went well, but no crazy connection or on-the-spot offers. I didn't get the second one, but got the third one, which went about as well as the second one. At least with federal appellate clerkships, it's just so competitive, and the interviewed candidates are all so impressive, that predicting an offer is tough (absent some clear signal from the judge/really connecting in the interview). Your interview could go well by all objective standards, but if you're the fifth best interviewee for four positions, you're in the same spot as the person who tanked their interview. If you wanted a rough rule of thumb, I'd say that, generally, walking out feeling like you had a good interview is necessary, but not sufficient.

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, it's tough to tell if you're going to get an offer, but easier to tell if you're NOT going to get an offer. I had three interviews for federal appellate positions. I tanked the first one and strongly suspected that I wouldn't get an offer. The next two went well, but no crazy connection or on-the-spot offers. I didn't get the second one, but got the third one, which went about as well as the second one. At least with federal appellate clerkships, it's just so competitive, and the interviewed candidates are all so impressive, that predicting an offer is tough (absent some clear signal from the judge/really connecting in the interview). Your interview could go well by all objective standards, but if you're the fifth best interviewee for four positions, you're in the same spot as the person who tanked their interview. If you wanted a rough rule of thumb, I'd say that, generally, walking out feeling like you had a good interview is necessary, but not sufficient.

fair enough. I just went on two interviews last week (first two I've had). I walked out of both feeling good, but not great. I tripped up on a weird -- but not tough -- question for both ( along the lines of what animal best describes your writing style and why). Your description of 5th best with 4 spots pretty much descirbes how i feel.

[Anonymous User]

Seeking some advice.

Somewhere between top 15-20 percent at CCN, secondary journal. Have been applying for roughly a year unsuccessfully. Would like to live in the northeast area so probably being pickier than I should be (EDVA, EDNY, SDNY, DMD), but have had professors with relationships make calls to no avail.

Am I wasting my time applying in these districts? I don't want to apply elsewhere for personal reasons. Please don't quote. Thanks in advance.

You should also consider DNJ and D.Conn, both of which may be commutable to NY depending on your chambers location, and both of which are competitive but not as insane as SDNY. FWIW, at least for HLS, most recent D.Conn clerks graduated top 10%. Notably, however, those district judges are more open to hiring people straight out than are most SDNY judges.

[Anonymous User]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

[mjb447]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

Do you mean that you would later get a clerkship with the same judge, or are you just asking generally if externs get any leg up in the hiring process?

[A. Nony Mouse]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

The externship isn't going to make any real difference in your chances, unless 1) the judge regularly hires interns and likes you enough to do so, and/or 2) the judge likes you enough to reach out to other judges on your behalf. That can happen, but a lot of judges won't hire previous interns on principle, and not all internships give you the chance to interact with the judge enough to get that kind of support. So it will depend on what happens in the internship. Barring that kind of support, an internship doesn't really alter your chances (and unfortunately even less competitive COA clerkships are still really competitive).

[Anonymous User]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

There are at least a few judges who have a practice of hiring externs as clerks--Charles Wilson on the 11th is one. But that's the exception rather than the rule.

[TatteredDignity]

a lot of judges won't hire previous interns on principle

Just curious--what's the principle?

[clerk1251]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

There are at least a few judges who have a practice of hiring externs as clerks--Charles Wilson on the 11th is one. But that's the exception rather than the rule.

There are also at least a few judges who have policies that they specifically won't ever hire someone who externed for them. It's a weird policy, for sure, but I believe they put it in place as some sort of backwards vetting because they want people who are genuinely interested in an externship and not just trying to boaster their resume.

[A. Nony Mouse]

a lot of judges won't hire previous interns on principle

Just curious--what's the principle?

Not sure, actually, but I think 1) they don't want people to think that their choice for a clerk was influenced by the previous relationship, 2) they don't want people applying to intern for the sole purpose of getting a clerkship later/don't want interns sucking up to them while they're there?

[nothingtosee]

a lot of judges won't hire previous interns on principle

Just curious--what's the principle?

Not sure, actually, but I think 1) they don't want people to think that their choice for a clerk was influenced by the previous relationship, 2) they don't want people applying to intern for the sole purpose of getting a clerkship later/don't want interns sucking up to them while they're there?

I interned for a judge who does this and think the idea was that internships/externships are a service the judge provides to law students, and the clerkship is a different type of relationship.

[rpupkin]

a lot of judges won't hire previous interns on principle

Just curious--what's the principle?

Not sure, actually, but I think 1) they don't want people to think that their choice for a clerk was influenced by the previous relationship, 2) they don't want people applying to intern for the sole purpose of getting a clerkship later/don't want interns sucking up to them while they're there?

I think the bolded is the primary explanation. Relatedly, most judges don't want an environment where the externs are competing with each other.

[TatteredDignity]

That all makes sense.

[Barrred]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

Its true that some judges dont hire former externs on principle, but i'll add another reason that you're unlikely to get a clerkship with the judge you externed for, even if the judge isnt opposed to hiring former externs on principle: by applying to clerk your externship will be retroactively converted into a 5 month long interview. Externing in chambers gives the judges/clerks an intimate knowledge of all of your flaws. It is much harder to maintain your reputation as an excellent applicant in a 5 month interview than it is to do so in a 2 hour interview. You just have more chances to mess up. That said, some externs do rise to the occasion, or just hit it off really well with the judge.

Having externed will, however, give you a big leg-up in terms of clerking in general. My judge was always skeptical of clerkship candidates who had never externed anywhere, as they likely don't actually know how a judge's chambers works, may not know what they are signing up for, or may not be interested in working for the Court for any reason other than the resume-boost.

[mjb447]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

Its true that some judges dont hire former externs on principle, but i'll add another reason that you're unlikely to get a clerkship with the judge you externed for, even if the judge isnt opposed to hiring former externs on principle: by applying to clerk your externship will be retroactively converted into a 5 month long interview. Externing in chambers gives the judges/clerks an intimate knowledge of all of your flaws. It is much harder to maintain your reputation as an excellent applicant in a 5 month interview than it is to do so in a 2 hour interview. You just have more chances to mess up. That said, some externs do rise to the occasion, or just hit it off really well with the judge.

Having externed will, however, give you a big leg-up in terms of clerking in general. My judge was always skeptical of clerkship candidates who had never externed anywhere, as they likely don't actually know how a judge's chambers works, may not know what they are signing up for, or may not be interested in working for the Court for any reason other than the resume-boost.

I'd put a big YMMV on the bolded, particularly for the "less[] competitive" (read: still pretty competitive) COAs that this commenter's interested in. Externing can help an applicant signal his/her interest in working in chambers, but COA judges don't lack for interested candidates, and for most judges I suspect that an externship isn't going to move the needle that much given how different extern hiring and workload is from clerk hiring and workload.

[BVest]

FWIW (not disagreeing with anything above, but I think it's helpful to know), I'm pretty sure most judges who don't hire former interns/externs disclose their policy up front, usually in their posting for the position and in the interview process.

Personally, I never let that dissuade me from applying. The odds of getting an internship/externship with a particular judge are fairly low and the odds of getting a clerkship with that judge are even lower. So I figured the odds of getting both absent such a policy were so infinitesimally low that I should never not apply to an externship with that judge.

[Barrred]

How likely is it for someone who has an externship with a judge next year to possibly get a clerkship after? (particularly COA - lesser competitive ones)

Its true that some judges dont hire former externs on principle, but i'll add another reason that you're unlikely to get a clerkship with the judge you externed for, even if the judge isnt opposed to hiring former externs on principle: by applying to clerk your externship will be retroactively converted into a 5 month long interview. Externing in chambers gives the judges/clerks an intimate knowledge of all of your flaws. It is much harder to maintain your reputation as an excellent applicant in a 5 month interview than it is to do so in a 2 hour interview. You just have more chances to mess up. That said, some externs do rise to the occasion, or just hit it off really well with the judge.

Having externed will, however, give you a big leg-up in terms of clerking in general. My judge was always skeptical of clerkship candidates who had never externed anywhere, as they likely don't actually know how a judge's chambers works, may not know what they are signing up for, or may not be interested in working for the Court for any reason other than the resume-boost.

I'd put a big YMMV on the bolded, particularly for the "less[] competitive" (read: still pretty competitive) COAs that this commenter's interested in. Externing can help an applicant signal his/her interest in working in chambers, but COA judges don't lack for interested candidates, and for most judges I suspect that an externship isn't going to move the needle that much given how different extern hiring and workload is from clerk hiring and workload.

I missed OP's lesser-competitive-COA caveat. While I think my point still stands, its more applicable at the district level where things are faster-paced and former district court externs are therefore able to get a more clerk-like experience in the short time they are there. YMMV of course, but i've seen externship experience move the needle (especially when competing against otherwise highly-similar applicants), and heard clerkship applicants get asked why they didn't extern during an interview.

[FascinatedWanderer]

I think competitive districts don't care about externship experience either. For sure it doesn't move the needle at SDNY/EDNY/NDCA/CDCA. Externs are a dime a dozen. Anyone with a pulse can get an externship.

[mjb447]

I missed OP's lesser-competitive-COA caveat. While I think my point still stands, its more applicable at the district level where things are faster-paced and former district court externs are therefore able to get a more clerk-like experience in the short time they are there. YMMV of course, but i've seen externship experience move the needle (especially when competing against otherwise highly-similar applicants), and heard clerkship applicants get asked why they didn't extern during an interview.

I don't doubt your experience, and an externship could potentially be a factor in your favor if you were in a tiebreaking situation with another applicant depending on what the judge values. I just don't want OP to get the impression that it's more important than it is. I think that for most judges, district or COA or whatever, an externship won't help you much unless you already have most or all of the other things that the judge wants (whether law school, GPA, law review, writing ability, recs/relationship to leverage, other work experience).

[Lincoln]

I missed OP's lesser-competitive-COA caveat. While I think my point still stands, its more applicable at the district level where things are faster-paced and former district court externs are therefore able to get a more clerk-like experience in the short time they are there. YMMV of course, but i've seen externship experience move the needle (especially when competing against otherwise highly-similar applicants), and heard clerkship applicants get asked why they didn't extern during an interview.

I don't doubt your experience, and an externship could potentially be a factor in your favor if you were in a tiebreaking situation with another applicant depending on what the judge values. I just don't want OP to get the impression that it's more important than it is. I think that for most judges, district or COA or whatever, an externship won't help you much unless you already have most or all of the other things that the judge wants (whether law school, GPA, law review, writing ability, recs/relationship to leverage, other work experience).

I agree with all of the recent posts on the value of externships but note that for my judge, a recommendation from another judge in this district/circuit for whom the applicant externed is a major factor that can outweigh less-than-stellar qualifications in any of the other resume lines mjb447 mentions.

[mjb447]

I missed OP's lesser-competitive-COA caveat. While I think my point still stands, its more applicable at the district level where things are faster-paced and former district court externs are therefore able to get a more clerk-like experience in the short time they are there. YMMV of course, but i've seen externship experience move the needle (especially when competing against otherwise highly-similar applicants), and heard clerkship applicants get asked why they didn't extern during an interview.

I don't doubt your experience, and an externship could potentially be a factor in your favor if you were in a tiebreaking situation with another applicant depending on what the judge values. I just don't want OP to get the impression that it's more important than it is. I think that for most judges, district or COA or whatever, an externship won't help you much unless you already have most or all of the other things that the judge wants (whether law school, GPA, law review, writing ability, recs/relationship to leverage, other work experience).

I agree with all of the recent posts on the value of externships but note that for my judge, a recommendation from another judge in this district/circuit for whom the applicant externed is a major factor that can outweigh less-than-stellar qualifications in any of the other resume lines mjb447 mentions.

Good caveat - my answer was directed mostly at an externship standing alone on your resume, or perhaps with a judge who doesn't really go to bat for former externs.

[Barrred]

I missed OP's lesser-competitive-COA caveat. While I think my point still stands, its more applicable at the district level where things are faster-paced and former district court externs are therefore able to get a more clerk-like experience in the short time they are there. YMMV of course, but i've seen externship experience move the needle (especially when competing against otherwise highly-similar applicants), and heard clerkship applicants get asked why they didn't extern during an interview.

I don't doubt your experience, and an externship could potentially be a factor in your favor if you were in a tiebreaking situation with another applicant depending on what the judge values. I just don't want OP to get the impression that it's more important than it is. I think that for most judges, district or COA or whatever, an externship won't help you much unless you already have most or all of the other things that the judge wants (whether law school, GPA, law review, writing ability, recs/relationship to leverage, other work experience).

I mostly agree. The 80/20 principle definitely applies here, in that law students tend to focus their attention on the 80% of things in law school that only produce 20% of career-results (extracurriculars, board positions, clinics, volunteering, externships, TLS-post-count, etc.), rather than the 20% of things that produce 80% of career-results (grades, grades, and grades).

With the large caveat that an externship wont make up for a mediocre GPA/etc., externing can be very helpful when later applying for a clerkship. It shows you are genuinely interested in working for the judiciary, it shows that you likely did actual substantive work your 1L-summer, and it provides a good reference-experience that will make you a better interviewer (you will know how to interact with clerks/judges, have a sense of how a judge's chambers work, have more insightful questions for the clerks/judges, etc.)

[grand inquisitor]

how many clerks were slightly confused/horrified when you first saw your judge in gym clothes?