Clerks Taking Questions Forum

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rpupkin

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:35 pm

runinthefront wrote:Then again, that doesn't explain why the 4th Circuit isn't included (e.g., judges in Baltimore) or the 3rd isn't included (e.g., judges in NJ or Pa). OP could just be unwisely limiting his/her options.
Exactly. It's the exclusion of the 3rd and 4th circuits that makes the "I don't care about prestige; I just want to go home" line particularly unconvincing.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Rather than litigate again whether non-feeders in 2/9/DC are "elite" or "prestigious," I'll just say that you should apply - applying as an alum is even more idiosyncratic than applying during law school, having a d. ct. clerkship should also help and, as others are saying, you have little to lose.
I agree about not litigating that issue again. I did not mean to start a discussion about the "prestige" of these judges and what its worth to one's career, only whether categorically these judges are so far out my league that my chances are 0.
Yeah, I wouldn't say zero. Of course, I expect that the odds for a judge who sits in Manhattan or San Francisco are different and probably tougher than for Vermont or Idaho, and getting a job with any individual judge is like lightning striking, so I'd probably blanket both circuits if you really want to clerk. (And, like others are saying, there's at least a reasonable argument that if one of your homes was LA and you're applying in Montana you're already looking pretty far from "home.")

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:46 pm

Although OP's original post can be construed as fairly broad, I did take it to mean that OP had ties to the DMV area + NY area + some particular region of the 9th circuit--and would therefore narrow his/her list down to the judges in the specific geographical areas.

Then again, that doesn't explain why the 4th Circuit isn't included (e.g., judges in Baltimore) or the 3rd isn't included (e.g., judges in NJ or Pa). OP could just be unwisely limiting his/her options.
This is what I meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Although OP's original post can be construed as fairly broad, I did take it to mean that OP had ties to the DMV area + NY area + some particular region of the 9th circuit--and would therefore narrow his/her list down to the judges in the specific geographical areas.

Then again, that doesn't explain why the 4th Circuit isn't included (e.g., judges in Baltimore) or the 3rd isn't included (e.g., judges in NJ or Pa). OP could just be unwisely limiting his/her options.
This is what I meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
So you meant that you were interested in judges in 2/3/4/9/DC?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:52 pm

Seeing as how your "home" apparently spans New York, Alaska, Southern California, Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, and the District of Columbia, it's hard to see why you couldn't adjust your conception of "home" to cover some other circuits as well. If you want to clerk for a COA judge, apply to lots of COA judges in different circuits.
jd20132013 wrote:The ninth circuit literally spans a continent but ok.
I'm sorry, I meant to say "these places have cities that are home to me" instead of "these places are home to me." Now can we get past the semantics?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by runinthefront » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Seeing as how your "home" apparently spans New York, Alaska, Southern California, Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, and the District of Columbia, it's hard to see why you couldn't adjust your conception of "home" to cover some other circuits as well. If you want to clerk for a COA judge, apply to lots of COA judges in different circuits.
jd20132013 wrote:The ninth circuit literally spans a continent but ok.
I'm sorry, I meant to say "these places have cities that are home to me" instead of "these places are home to me." Now can we get past the semantics?
Your original question has been answered several times in this thread already, and no one has given you conflicting advice. just get over your fear of rejection and apply. Or don't. I'm not sure what else you're looking for here--posters to tell you that you're basically wasting your time?

Shoot your shot!
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:00 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Although OP's original post can be construed as fairly broad, I did take it to mean that OP had ties to the DMV area + NY area + some particular region of the 9th circuit--and would therefore narrow his/her list down to the judges in the specific geographical areas.

Then again, that doesn't explain why the 4th Circuit isn't included (e.g., judges in Baltimore) or the 3rd isn't included (e.g., judges in NJ or Pa). OP could just be unwisely limiting his/her options.
This is what I meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
So you meant that you were interested in judges in 2/3/4/9/DC?
No. I meant that I am interested in judges in DC or around it, NYC or around it, and one city in the Ninth Circuit. Yes, that city could be Pasadena or San Francisco, but it could also be Phoenix or Portland for all you know. And Yes, DC and NYC happen to be "elite" but wtf am I supposed to do if that is where home is and I want to clerk there? That would also rule out most of the Fourth Circuit and Third Circuit. That's why I originally didn't include them, but yes I would of course rather clerk in Bethesda or Baltimore or Newark than be in a new city where I know absolutely nobody.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:10 pm

You're basically in the same boat as someone with a 163 LSAT who wants to go to law school but who will only apply to schools in his home cities of Cambridge, New Haven, and Palo Alto.

You're probably going to strike out, but go ahead and apply to judges who work in the cities you find acceptable.
Last edited by rpupkin on Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:18 pm

Originally it sounded like you might apply broadly within the 9th and 2d (and to everyone in DC), which opened more paths for you but raised questions about why you weren't going to apply to other circuits, especially how far from a single "home" city you could end up in the 9th.

Now it's clearer that you only want to apply in specific cities within those circuits, which makes your strategy clearer but also limits your options and chances. Still, I'm not sure your chances are zero, and you're also not going to invest a huge amount of time or money in applying to so few judges. Might as well apply rather than live not knowing.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:30 pm

mjb447 wrote:Now it's clearer that you only want to apply in specific cities within those circuits, which makes your strategy clearer but also limits your options and chances. Still, I'm not sure your chances are zero, and you're also not going to invest a huge amount of time or money in applying to so few judges. Might as well apply rather than live not knowing.
Yeah, chances are not literally zero. But unless OP has a recommender who has an in with one of the judges, his chances in DC Circuit are probably less than 1%. As for the Ninth Circuit, it depends on the city. (He'd have a zero percent chance in some cities and maybe a 1-2% chance in others.) Second Circuit has more judges in one place (and isn't quite as competitive overall as DC Circuit), so perhaps a 2% chance there.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by WinterComing » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:57 pm

Also worth noting that many of the judges in this OP's desired locations have already hired for 2019-20 and some for 2020-21.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:17 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:33 pm

Yeah, traditionally applicants were expected to accept on the spot, and there are lots of judges who still expect applicants to accept the offer on the spot. If the judge doesn't affirmatively offer you a deadline to answer, they probably expect you to answer right away. You can ask for time if there's a specific reason you can't answer right away (although you should probably be prepared for the possibility that they will make an immediate offer), but you should ask directly and not assume that they're giving it to you. Waiting for the offer letter seems unusual to me, but then I don't really know anyone who got a formal offer letter before accepting the job.

But frankly there's no use worrying about it now, and you still got/have the job, so the best thing to do is do the best job you can and make the judge happy that they hired you after all.

(But I'm also sorry that the judge felt comfortable whispering about you in chambers - I hate being in that situation.)

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:11 pm

Yes, you probably should have accepted immediately or made it clear that you would want time - in the context of clerkship hiring in particular, "odd" is a pretty fair characterization of waiting for an offer letter to accept.

That said, the judge didn't rescind your offer on this basis, and you're working in chambers now. You also wouldn't be the first clerk who's gotten off to an awkward start for whatever reason. Best thing you can do is be a great clerk so that this initial weird impression doesn't become the judge's overall opinion of you.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:21 pm

WinterComing wrote:Also worth noting that many of the judges in this OP's desired locations have already hired for 2019-20 and some for 2020-21.
You're making me want to check where Rakoff/Katzmann are.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by HollyGo2 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:47 am

Hey all - I was hoping someone might be willing to answer some questions to help me decide my next step in clerkship applications.

I got lucky and recently landed a (non-feeder) SDNY clerkship for 2019-20, which I’ll be doing after 2 years in biglaw (since I graduated in May). To be honest, I didn’t think I would get the offer -- I graduated top 10% at a T14 (not HYS), but I didn’t do law review or publish anything so I didn’t think I was that competitive in light of everything I’ve read on TLS. The judge takes a lot of clerks from my school so maybe that helped. Also, this was also the only clerkship I applied to (long story, but no personal connection to the judge or anything), so now I’m left feeling that I don’t know if my getting the clerkship reflects the competitiveness of my application or if the judge just randomly really liked something in my background.

Anyway, I’d like to do a circuit court clerkship the following year (because I think it would be awesome more so than because I think it would be particularly helpful later on beyond maybe improving my writing skills). Ideally, I’d do it in the 2nd Circuit and avoid moving again, or 9th Circuit in CA since that’s where I’m from. I don’t actually know where I want to settle since I had some personal stuff happen in law school that threw my life plan for a bit of a loop, so I don’t have that to guide me. I know these are both competitive circuits (and competitive geographic areas within the circuits) so my questions are:
1) Do I even have a shot with my stats? I understand that already having a district court clerkship lined up might help a bit?
2) I honestly thought my writing sample was not great and was planning on re-writing it before I started really applying to clerkships. Does the fact that I got the district court clerkship imply otherwise or is there are a decent chance they just didn't look at it? I could also try to use something I write once I start work, but that would likely mean that I wouldn't submit any applications until next spring. Since there aren't many apps up on OSCAR yet for the 2020 term, I think that should be fine, but would love any thoughts on this.
3) If I manage to get a 2nd Circuit clerkship through some miracle and end up deciding I want to end up back in CA (or elsewhere), will it be more difficult to get a job with back-to-back NYC clerkships or will employers understand wanting to clerk in SDNY/2nd circuit even if I don’t end up wanting to stay in NYC? (Note that at this point I’d probably be heading back to a firm although I do have a few AUSA pipe dreams).

Apologies if this is a bit rambling. Any advice is appreciated and thanks in advance!

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:33 am

HollyGo2 wrote:Hey all - I was hoping someone might be willing to answer some questions to help me decide my next step in clerkship applications.

I got lucky and recently landed a (non-feeder) SDNY clerkship for 2019-20, which I’ll be doing after 2 years in biglaw (since I graduated in May). To be honest, I didn’t think I would get the offer -- I graduated top 10% at a T14 (not HYS), but I didn’t do law review or publish anything so I didn’t think I was that competitive in light of everything I’ve read on TLS. The judge takes a lot of clerks from my school so maybe that helped. Also, this was also the only clerkship I applied to (long story, but no personal connection to the judge or anything), so now I’m left feeling that I don’t know if my getting the clerkship reflects the competitiveness of my application or if the judge just randomly really liked something in my background.

Anyway, I’d like to do a circuit court clerkship the following year (because I think it would be awesome more so than because I think it would be particularly helpful later on beyond maybe improving my writing skills). Ideally, I’d do it in the 2nd Circuit and avoid moving again, or 9th Circuit in CA since that’s where I’m from. I don’t actually know where I want to settle since I had some personal stuff happen in law school that threw my life plan for a bit of a loop, so I don’t have that to guide me. I know these are both competitive circuits (and competitive geographic areas within the circuits) so my questions are:
1) Do I even have a shot with my stats? I understand that already having a district court clerkship lined up might help a bit?
2) I honestly thought my writing sample was not great and was planning on re-writing it before I started really applying to clerkships. Does the fact that I got the district court clerkship imply otherwise or is there are a decent chance they just didn't look at it? I could also try to use something I write once I start work, but that would likely mean that I wouldn't submit any applications until next spring. Since there aren't many apps up on OSCAR yet for the 2020 term, I think that should be fine, but would love any thoughts on this.
3) If I manage to get a 2nd Circuit clerkship through some miracle and end up deciding I want to end up back in CA (or elsewhere), will it be more difficult to get a job with back-to-back NYC clerkships or will employers understand wanting to clerk in SDNY/2nd circuit even if I don’t end up wanting to stay in NYC? (Note that at this point I’d probably be heading back to a firm although I do have a few AUSA pipe dreams).

Apologies if this is a bit rambling. Any advice is appreciated and thanks in advance!
1) Enough of a shot to send out fewer than fifty apps, probably primarily via OSCAR, using materials you mostly already have? Sure. It'll be a crapshoot (getting a clerkship off of a small number of apps like you did is unusual), but hopefully you know what you're getting into by only applying to a small number of really competitive places. (Deja vu!)

2) If you think your writing sample could be improved, do it. I wouldn't try to read anything meaningful into what one judge thought of your application. Since I don't know what your current sample is, it's hard to comment on whether work you do in practice might be better.

I don't know much about firm hiring, so I'll demur on 3.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:41 am

HollyGo2 wrote:Hey all - I was hoping someone might be willing to answer some questions to help me decide my next step in clerkship applications.

I got lucky and recently landed a (non-feeder) SDNY clerkship for 2019-20, which I’ll be doing after 2 years in biglaw (since I graduated in May). To be honest, I didn’t think I would get the offer -- I graduated top 10% at a T14 (not HYS), but I didn’t do law review or publish anything so I didn’t think I was that competitive in light of everything I’ve read on TLS. The judge takes a lot of clerks from my school so maybe that helped. Also, this was also the only clerkship I applied to (long story, but no personal connection to the judge or anything), so now I’m left feeling that I don’t know if my getting the clerkship reflects the competitiveness of my application or if the judge just randomly really liked something in my background.

Anyway, I’d like to do a circuit court clerkship the following year (because I think it would be awesome more so than because I think it would be particularly helpful later on beyond maybe improving my writing skills). Ideally, I’d do it in the 2nd Circuit and avoid moving again, or 9th Circuit in CA since that’s where I’m from. I don’t actually know where I want to settle since I had some personal stuff happen in law school that threw my life plan for a bit of a loop, so I don’t have that to guide me. I know these are both competitive circuits (and competitive geographic areas within the circuits) so my questions are:
1) Do I even have a shot with my stats? I understand that already having a district court clerkship lined up might help a bit?
2) I honestly thought my writing sample was not great and was planning on re-writing it before I started really applying to clerkships. Does the fact that I got the district court clerkship imply otherwise or is there are a decent chance they just didn't look at it? I could also try to use something I write once I start work, but that would likely mean that I wouldn't submit any applications until next spring. Since there aren't many apps up on OSCAR yet for the 2020 term, I think that should be fine, but would love any thoughts on this.
3) If I manage to get a 2nd Circuit clerkship through some miracle and end up deciding I want to end up back in CA (or elsewhere), will it be more difficult to get a job with back-to-back NYC clerkships or will employers understand wanting to clerk in SDNY/2nd circuit even if I don’t end up wanting to stay in NYC? (Note that at this point I’d probably be heading back to a firm although I do have a few AUSA pipe dreams).

Apologies if this is a bit rambling. Any advice is appreciated and thanks in advance!
Good questions and a good situation for you to be in. Congrats!

1) Yes, see discussions above. It's definitely worth applying and the SDNY clerkship will help, particularly for CA2 but for circuit judges generally. You should focus on judges who prefer/require work experience, since 2 years of biglaw + D. Ct. is often exactly what they are looking for.
2) There's a good chance that they didn't look at it, and there's also a good chance they looked at it and were satisfied with it, and neither of those is predicative of what another judge will think. (Apologies for that entirely unhelpful answer!) If I were you I would apply to anyone hiring for 2020 now with the writing sample you have, and perhaps develop a new sample at work you can use for judges who post later.
3) I can't imagine any firm holding a CA2/SDNY clerkship pairing against you--those are both extremely portable clerkships, and since you're from CA that should be enough to satisfy ties. If you know you want to work in CA long-term CA9 will generally be more helpful than CA2, but CA2 can't really ever hurt you.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by HollyGo2 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:05 am

Thank you both very much for your thoughtful (and speedy) responses!

Since you're "here," I'm going to try my luck and ask one more question: If I was going to consider expanding my applications to apply to judges with really good reputations for being good mentors/bosses who are outside the 9th and 2nd circuits, are there any judges that come to mind specifically? I assume I'll find information in the circuit-specific threads and elsewhere online so I'll certainly do that research, but if anyone here has a thought, I'd appreciate it! Note that I'm not looking for "feeders" or anything like that -- I don't have a shot at SCOTUS (now THAT would be a cool job!), so I'm much more concerned with having a good experience than getting a well-known name on my resume (although those are not mutually exclusive).

Thank you again!!

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by jrf12886 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:36 pm

HollyGo2 wrote:Hey all - I was hoping someone might be willing to answer some questions to help me decide my next step in clerkship applications.

I got lucky and recently landed a (non-feeder) SDNY clerkship for 2019-20, which I’ll be doing after 2 years in biglaw (since I graduated in May). To be honest, I didn’t think I would get the offer -- I graduated top 10% at a T14 (not HYS), but I didn’t do law review or publish anything so I didn’t think I was that competitive in light of everything I’ve read on TLS. The judge takes a lot of clerks from my school so maybe that helped. Also, this was also the only clerkship I applied to (long story, but no personal connection to the judge or anything), so now I’m left feeling that I don’t know if my getting the clerkship reflects the competitiveness of my application or if the judge just randomly really liked something in my background.

Anyway, I’d like to do a circuit court clerkship the following year (because I think it would be awesome more so than because I think it would be particularly helpful later on beyond maybe improving my writing skills). Ideally, I’d do it in the 2nd Circuit and avoid moving again, or 9th Circuit in CA since that’s where I’m from. I don’t actually know where I want to settle since I had some personal stuff happen in law school that threw my life plan for a bit of a loop, so I don’t have that to guide me. I know these are both competitive circuits (and competitive geographic areas within the circuits) so my questions are:
1) Do I even have a shot with my stats? I understand that already having a district court clerkship lined up might help a bit?
2) I honestly thought my writing sample was not great and was planning on re-writing it before I started really applying to clerkships. Does the fact that I got the district court clerkship imply otherwise or is there are a decent chance they just didn't look at it? I could also try to use something I write once I start work, but that would likely mean that I wouldn't submit any applications until next spring. Since there aren't many apps up on OSCAR yet for the 2020 term, I think that should be fine, but would love any thoughts on this.
3) If I manage to get a 2nd Circuit clerkship through some miracle and end up deciding I want to end up back in CA (or elsewhere), will it be more difficult to get a job with back-to-back NYC clerkships or will employers understand wanting to clerk in SDNY/2nd circuit even if I don’t end up wanting to stay in NYC? (Note that at this point I’d probably be heading back to a firm although I do have a few AUSA pipe dreams).

Apologies if this is a bit rambling. Any advice is appreciated and thanks in advance!
1. Absolutely. Having the SDNY clerkship will definitely give you a leg up for a 2d cir. clerkship. And your grades are good enough not to be a limiting factor for almost all 2d Cir. judges. I think people overestimate the necessity of having published a note (I didnt). The lack of journal will probably stand out but not be disqualifying if a judge otherwise likes your credentials/background.
2. You should edit it to the extent you can but I wouldn't worry too much about the writing sample. When I reviewed applications, I was basically looking for anyone whose writing was noticeably bad. But a great sample didn't boost the app, it was more a pass/fail kind of thing.
3. I don't know much about CA firms so I'll defer to others.

Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions about 2d cir.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by clerk1251 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:07 am

rpupkin wrote:
clerk1251 wrote:This is my second clerkship, and I found this to be the same case at my previous clerkship as well as at other courthouses I went to interview at.
Clerk1251: Were your clerkships (and various interviews) at small courthouses in rural locations with slow dockets? I guess I can imagine those courts having the luxury of having the CSOs verify the purpose of everyone's visit. Still seems strange, though.
Clerkship 1 was small courthouse, rural location.
Clerkship 2 is huge courthouse, big city, secondary market (not NY/CA/DC).

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:17 pm

Trying to reach a Judge's chambers. The number isn't posted on the court's directory online, and I can't find it anywhere else online. Is it ok to call the court's main number (the clerk's office) and ask to be transferred? Or should I keep looking? FYI I called just now but they're already closed so I figured I'd ask before tomorrow. Thanks!

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:50 pm

Hi all: I have a quick question about scheduling an interview. I got a voicemail from chambers last wednesday to schedule an interview. I called back on friday and left a message, and haven't heard back yet. I *think* the judge is on vacation, so chambers probably is too. Should I keep calling or wait for a call back? Obviously I won't leave any more voicemails, but I don't want to come off as pushy.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:17 pm

So I just started and feel completely lost l/inadequate. I'm hoping this goes away as I get comfortable with the job? Just looking for some reassurance

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by jd20132013 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:24 pm

Anonymous User wrote:So I just started and feel completely lost l/inadequate. I'm hoping this goes away as I get comfortable with the job? Just looking for some reassurance

Yep definitely I felt the same way both clerkships

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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