Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with this advice.

Maybe it varies chambers to chambers, but I cant imagine how it could hurt to mass mail applications. The worst that would happen (at least in my chambers) is the application gets thrown away unopened. The best that could happen is that it gets opened and something catches the opening-clerk's eye, which gets the application some further review. Not all judges use OSCAR, and even among those that do, some will interview people who mail them paper applications before even opening an OSCAR posting for that term.

What do you think is wrong with this advice? I cant imagine being so angry that someone mailed us an unsolicited application that I would go out of my way to blackball that applicant, but maybe thats a bad assumption?

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

[Anonymous User]

Also, I don't know how your school did it, but at the top tiered schools, most paper applications need to be mailed from the law school, that way they can include official copies of transcripts and LORs.

Rest of your answer is super helpful, but had a question about this specific part. My school only handles the LOR. For transcripts, do I still need to use the official ones? I have just been using the grade sheets on OSCAR this whole time.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with this advice.

Maybe it varies chambers to chambers, but I cant imagine how it could hurt to mass mail applications. The worst that would happen (at least in my chambers) is the application gets thrown away unopened. The best that could happen is that it gets opened and something catches the opening-clerk's eye, which gets the application some further review. Not all judges use OSCAR, and even among those that do, some will interview people who mail them paper applications before even opening an OSCAR posting for that term.

What do you think is wrong with this advice? I cant imagine being so angry that someone mailed us an unsolicited application that I would go out of my way to blackball that applicant, but maybe thats a bad assumption?

So many reasons. First and most obviously, I imagine that keeping some aspect of control over his applications is important to this poster. I imagine he hasn't told his firm he is planning on leaving, or unhappy there. So he will want to keep a degree of anonymity to this process. If he wants to call judges that don't already state on OSCAR they have filled a position, to inquire if they are still interviewing, that's one thing - but to blanket every judge in the country, that's just absurd. Also, I don't know how your school did it, but at the top tiered schools, most paper applications need to be mailed from the law school, that way they can include official copies of transcripts and LORs. It seems silly to apply to judges you find on wikipedia, who very clearly state on OSCAR they have already completed hiring. Thirdly, when you have someone who is willing to go just about anywhere - they usually still do some sort of methodical approach, in the sense that they'd still prefer some locations over others. If you just apply everywhere, you are stuck taking whatever comes your way and close out any other possibilities. And last but not least, some chambers might actually take an approach like this to be a poor reflection on both the candidate and the law school (specifically when he has stated he only has career law clerks, or has completed hiring until x year).

Therefore, as I said, blanket mailing is a very poor approach and a lazy approach. Put in the time, cross reference wikipedia with OSCAR, get the chambers phone numbers from your school's database, and call any that don't clearly indicate they have already completed hiring or are not hiring.

Your point about maintaining relative anonymity and controlling applications seems valid, if this indeed matters to the OP. To be clear though, I never suggested that he blanket the entire country with paper applications, just that he apply to every judge in a judicial district where he is interested in working, regardless of their not being on OSCAR. This strategy doesn't preclude doing thorough research and cross-referencing with OSCAR postings. It goes without saying that there is no point in mailing a paper application to a judge who has indicated on OSCAR that he has already hired through 2019, for example. My point was not that OP should ignore information on OSCAR postings, but rather that he should consider mailing paper applications to judges in a judicial district/circuit where he wants to work who are not on OSCAR, or to whom he has already applied via OSCAR.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with this advice.

Maybe it varies chambers to chambers, but I cant imagine how it could hurt to mass mail applications. The worst that would happen (at least in my chambers) is the application gets thrown away unopened. The best that could happen is that it gets opened and something catches the opening-clerk's eye, which gets the application some further review. Not all judges use OSCAR, and even among those that do, some will interview people who mail them paper applications before even opening an OSCAR posting for that term.

What do you think is wrong with this advice? I cant imagine being so angry that someone mailed us an unsolicited application that I would go out of my way to blackball that applicant, but maybe thats a bad assumption?

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

If you are interested in applying for more than one term, that is a good piece of information to include in a cover letter. For example, a judge may be close to filling her 2018 spot (and hasn't yet closed it on OSCAR), but likes your application and may consider interviewing you for 2019 (even if she hasnt officially opened the 2019 term on OSCAR yet) because you indicated term flexibility in your cover letter.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I blanket paper-mailed in my circuit. I got a lot of "sorry, we're not hiring" responses, but I also got a clerkship out of it, because my judge usually hired through Oscar but saw my paper app and liked it. I don't think there's any harm to it - no one's going to find out, and even if they did, so what? (And yes, of course, if a judge is on Oscar and says "apply online" or "we're not hiring" you honor that. A lot of judges don't say, though, and they're not going to remember who you are and think badly of you if they're not hiring. Similarly of course you don't blanket places you're not willing to go, but that doesn't seem to need to be said.)

[rpupkin]

I blanket paper-mailed in my circuit. I got a lot of "sorry, we're not hiring" responses, but I also got a clerkship out of it, because my judge usually hired through Oscar but saw my paper app and liked it. I don't think there's any harm to it - no one's going to find out, and even if they did, so what? (And yes, of course, if a judge is on Oscar and says "apply online" or "we're not hiring" you honor that. A lot of judges don't say, though, and they're not going to remember who you are and think badly of you if they're not hiring. Similarly of course you don't blanket places you're not willing to go, but that doesn't seem to need to be said.)

Agree with this.

[clerk1251]

Your point about maintaining relative anonymity and controlling applications seems valid, if this indeed matters to the OP. To be clear though, I never suggested that he blanket the entire country with paper applications, just that he apply to every judge in a judicial district where he is interested in working, regardless of their not being on OSCAR. This strategy doesn't preclude doing thorough research and cross-referencing with OSCAR postings. It goes without saying that there is no point in mailing a paper application to a judge who has indicated on OSCAR that he has already hired through 2019, for example. My point was not that OP should ignore information on OSCAR postings, but rather that he should consider mailing paper applications to judges in a judicial district/circuit where he wants to work who are not on OSCAR, or to whom he has already applied via OSCAR.

The issue with this becomes that the OP is entirely geographically flexible. It'd be much easier to make calls and ask if someone would consider an application, and then sending one out (paper or otherwise).

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

This is also another reason I wouldn't recommend blanketing paper applications. To answer your question, yes, you'd have to include language to the affect of "I am writing to apply for a law clerk position in your chambers for the 2018-2019 term."

Rest of your answer is super helpful, but had a question about this specific part. My school only handles the LOR. For transcripts, do I still need to use the official ones? I have just been using the grade sheets on OSCAR this whole time.

Have you specifically asked them? My school, especially for alumni applicants, handle everything. You just tell them the address for the Judge it is going to, and email them your cover letter, resume, and writing sample. You also need to tell them which LORs you want to send. They then print it all out, compile it, and send it. They even pay for postage. In any event, I'd highly caution against submitting a print out of your OSCAR grade sheet for paper applications. Applications made through OSCAR, that's fine. In fact, you don't even have an option to submit a transcript on OSCAR. But for paper applications and especially as post grad application, I'd send them an original copy of your transcript if possible. If your school caps the number of copies you can get, or charges you, or anything like that, then just send them a photocopy of the original. I personally sent out originals because it just seemed more official to me.

[rpupkin]

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

This is also another reason I wouldn't recommend blanketing paper applications. To answer your question, yes, you'd have to include language to the affect of "I am writing to apply for a law clerk position in your chambers for the 2018-2019 term."

Why would an applicant have to include that language in a cover letter?

[clerk1251]

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

This is also another reason I wouldn't recommend blanketing paper applications. To answer your question, yes, you'd have to include language to the affect of "I am writing to apply for a law clerk position in your chambers for the 2018-2019 term."

Why would an applicant have to include that language in a cover letter?

You don't think so? I've seen seen a cover letter without it. I think it'd be super weird if we got an application in chambers that just simply said "I'm writing to apply for a clerkship."

Moreover, let's say OP does this, leaving the term undefined, and he gets calls about a term for 2019 or 2020. That puts him in an awkward position, seeing as he'd like to leave as soon as possible.

[Anonymous User]

I blanket paper-mailed in my circuit. I got a lot of "sorry, we're not hiring" responses, but I also got a clerkship out of it, because my judge usually hired through Oscar but saw my paper app and liked it. I don't think there's any harm to it - no one's going to find out, and even if they did, so what? (And yes, of course, if a judge is on Oscar and says "apply online" or "we're not hiring" you honor that. A lot of judges don't say, though, and they're not going to remember who you are and think badly of you if they're not hiring. Similarly of course you don't blanket places you're not willing to go, but that doesn't seem to need to be said.)

DJ clerk here. I agree entirely. My judge hires pretty atypically and usually through personal references, so there are rarely Oscar postings for chambers. We still get paper applications all the time. Judge just hands them to us and 99% of the time we throw it out and forget the applicant's name the next day. 1% of the time we will hang on to them because there may be a position opening soon. There is no way we'd ever "out" someone. What would you do, email their employer and say we got an application from them?

[mjb447]

My law school's clerkship office put a cap on the number of hard copy LORs a student could request over a particular period of time, which limited my ability to 'blanket' somewhat (but only because I was very flexible geographically and temporally). Since the cost of my paper apps was potentially not having a paper app available later when I needed it for a paper-only judge, this changed the calculus a bit for me. It was also another reason to think about whether I should send a paper app to a judge who would accept via OSCAR.

If you're not at the mercy of a policy like that, though (whether because there's no cap or because you're never going to reach it by applying where you're interested), I tend to agree that there's no harm in applying via paper and that it may give you a slight advantage in getting your app noticed.

[mjb447]

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

This is also another reason I wouldn't recommend blanketing paper applications. To answer your question, yes, you'd have to include language to the affect of "I am writing to apply for a law clerk position in your chambers for the 2018-2019 term."

Why would an applicant have to include that language in a cover letter?

You don't think so? I've seen seen a cover letter without it. I think it'd be super weird if we got an application in chambers that just simply said "I'm writing to apply for a clerkship."

We usually see "I'm writing to apply for a clerkship for [whatever term]," but I've definitely seen a few that don't specify.

[rpupkin]

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

This is also another reason I wouldn't recommend blanketing paper applications. To answer your question, yes, you'd have to include language to the affect of "I am writing to apply for a law clerk position in your chambers for the 2018-2019 term."

Why would an applicant have to include that language in a cover letter?

You don't think so? I've seen seen a cover letter without it. I think it'd be super weird if we got an application in chambers that just simply said "I'm writing to apply for a clerkship."

Moreover, let's say OP does this, leaving the term undefined, and he gets calls about a term for 2019 or 2020. That puts him in an awkward position, seeing as he'd like to leave as soon as possible.

Plenty of folks start a clerkship on short notice. I don't see what's so awkward about your hypothetical. And I don't think it's strange to say "I'm interested in clerking in the 2018-19 or 2019-20 terms."

Look, the cold-paper-app strategy wouldn't work with my judge. It sounds like it wouldn't work with your judge either. But the question here isn't how to get hired by rpupkin's or clerk1251's judge; it's how to increase your chances of getting a clerkship when you don't have the strongest stats and background. For folks in that boat, the "mass paper apply" strategy makes some sense.

[clerk1251]

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

This is also another reason I wouldn't recommend blanketing paper applications. To answer your question, yes, you'd have to include language to the affect of "I am writing to apply for a law clerk position in your chambers for the 2018-2019 term."

Why would an applicant have to include that language in a cover letter?

You don't think so? I've seen seen a cover letter without it. I think it'd be super weird if we got an application in chambers that just simply said "I'm writing to apply for a clerkship."

Moreover, let's say OP does this, leaving the term undefined, and he gets calls about a term for 2019 or 2020. That puts him in an awkward position, seeing as he'd like to leave as soon as possible.

Plenty of folks start a clerkship on short notice. I don't see what's so awkward about your hypothetical. And I don't think it's strange to say "I'm interested in clerking in the 2018-19 or 2019-20 terms."

Look, the cold-paper-app strategy wouldn't work with my judge. It sounds like it wouldn't work with your judge either. But the question here isn't how to get hired by rpupkin's or clerk1251's judge; it's how to increase your chances of getting a clerkship when you don't have the strongest stats and background. For folks in that boat, the "mass paper apply" strategy makes some sense.

I think you missed the point of my hypothetical. Based on everything OP wrote, he would start next week if it was possible. He wants to get out of his firm as soon as possible. A 2019 or 2020 clerkship would not be ideal, and assuming he can secure a 2017 or 2018 clerkship, a later one might not even be wanted. It would put him in an awkward position where he might turn down an opportunity for a later position, simply because he would rather wait for something earlier.

That being said, I understand where everyone is coming from here, discussing paper applications. But, me personally, I'd argue that a simple phone call inquiring as to the next possible opening would be a more efficient use of time and resources.

[clerk1251]

One additional thought for OP, is to keep an eye on newly nominated Judges. There remain a large number of judicial appointments that should be coming in the next few months.

[rpupkin]

If you use this method, do you indicate in which term period you're interested? Not sure how one would do this if one isn't sure what the openings are. Do you indicate in the cover letter that you're open to later terms (in the case that the positions are filled)? Or do you just not indicate any term at all assuming the judges understand you're applying for an available term?

This is also another reason I wouldn't recommend blanketing paper applications. To answer your question, yes, you'd have to include language to the affect of "I am writing to apply for a law clerk position in your chambers for the 2018-2019 term."

Why would an applicant have to include that language in a cover letter?

You don't think so? I've seen seen a cover letter without it. I think it'd be super weird if we got an application in chambers that just simply said "I'm writing to apply for a clerkship."

Moreover, let's say OP does this, leaving the term undefined, and he gets calls about a term for 2019 or 2020. That puts him in an awkward position, seeing as he'd like to leave as soon as possible.

Plenty of folks start a clerkship on short notice. I don't see what's so awkward about your hypothetical. And I don't think it's strange to say "I'm interested in clerking in the 2018-19 or 2019-20 terms."

Look, the cold-paper-app strategy wouldn't work with my judge. It sounds like it wouldn't work with your judge either. But the question here isn't how to get hired by rpupkin's or clerk1251's judge; it's how to increase your chances of getting a clerkship when you don't have the strongest stats and background. For folks in that boat, the "mass paper apply" strategy makes some sense.

I think you missed the point of my hypothetical. Based on everything OP wrote, he would start next week if it was possible. He wants to get out of his firm as soon as possible. A 2019 or 2020 clerkship would not be ideal, and assuming he can secure a 2017 or 2018 clerkship, a later one might not even be wanted. It would put him in an awkward position where he might turn down an opportunity for a later position, simply because he would rather wait for something earlier.

If OP isn't open to clerking in 2019, then he shouldn't say he's interested in clerking in 2019. But if I were in OP's shoes, I'd take a 2019 clerkship if I got offered one, even if I preferred a 2018 clerkship instead. The point is that I don't see anything wrong with being flexible in a cover letter (if the applicant is in fact flexible).

[Anonymous User]

3 weeks since my interview with a d. ct. judge that only hires those at least 2 years out of law school.

Does this mean I didn't get it?

[rpupkin]

3 weeks since my interview with a d. ct. judge that only hires those at least 2 years out of law school.

Does this mean I didn't get it?

No.

[mjb447]

3 weeks since my interview with a d. ct. judge that only hires those at least 2 years out of law school.

Does this mean I didn't get it?

No, three weeks of delay is nothing and could have come up for all kinds of reasons.

[Anonymous User]

Two last bits of advice: First, consider looking on the websites for various districts. I know a number of places that won't post on OSCAR if they have an opening, but they will instead put it in the careers section on their court's homepage. Second, I don't know if you are excluding magistrate judge's from your applications, but they tend to be a little easier, and will be a great stepping stone to a second clerkship, or a simple transition back to a litigation firm. They also typically don''t hire as far out so you may find a number of openings for 2017 and 2018 still remain.

How does this work pragmatically? Do magistrate judges call other judges on their clerk's behalf? Do some judges in the same district look to hire magistrate clerks? Does the clerk tell the magistrate judge that she's interested in second clerkship early on so that the judge is aware and reaches out to to D or C court judges? Or is it simply prior clerkship experience that helps you stand out from the pile? I use the expression "simply prior clerkship experience" not to discount the benefits or utility of a magistrate clerkship, but to contrast it from the prior options in which the judge becomes involved.

I am considering applying for a magistrate clerkship in a flyover state (where I am from) for the 2018 term and would love to follow up with a second clerkship there. I have already applied to D and C court judges there, but no luck so far, so I was thinking of pursuing this route. I would love to gain the practical experience while being near my family, especially if could lead to a second clerkship in the same area. Just FYI, I would even do magistrate, district, and circuit clerkships back to back to back, so any specific advice on that end would be helpful too. I am top 1/3 at DNwBC (is that right? Based off the recent rankings) with no Law Review. I have a big law job lined up following graduation so if my plan works out, I will only be there for a year.

[mjb447]

How does this work pragmatically? Do magistrate judges call other judges on their clerk's behalf? Do some judges in the same district look to hire magistrate clerks? Does the clerk tell the magistrate judge that she's interested in second clerkship early on so that the judge is aware and reaches out to to D or C court judges? Or is it simply prior clerkship experience that helps you stand out from the pile? I use the expression "simply prior clerkship experience" not to discount the benefits or utility of a magistrate clerkship, but to contrast it from the prior options in which the judge becomes involved.

Can be any of these things. Some of them vary a lot by judge: an MJ might not have very many DJ friends or might not be willing to go to bat for you, but the MJ clerkship alone might still help get your app pulled by a DJ who thinks that an MJ clerkship is relevant experience. If you're looking to go MJ -> DJ in the same district, it might be a good idea to see if you can find any bios for people who have done that in that district (could help you identify if this happens often and whether there's a particular MJ -> DJ 'pipeline' that you can target).

[clerk1251]

How does this work pragmatically? Do magistrate judges call other judges on their clerk's behalf? Do some judges in the same district look to hire magistrate clerks? Does the clerk tell the magistrate judge that she's interested in second clerkship early on so that the judge is aware and reaches out to to D or C court judges? Or is it simply prior clerkship experience that helps you stand out from the pile? I use the expression "simply prior clerkship experience" not to discount the benefits or utility of a magistrate clerkship, but to contrast it from the prior options in which the judge becomes involved.

Can be any of these things. Some of them vary a lot by judge: an MJ might not have very many DJ friends or might not be willing to go to bat for you, but the MJ clerkship alone might still help get your app pulled by a DJ who thinks that an MJ clerkship is relevant experience. If you're looking to go MJ -> DJ in the same district, it might be a good idea to see if you can find any bios for people who have done that in that district (could help you identify if this happens often and whether there's a particular MJ -> DJ 'pipeline' that you can target).

I'd agree with most of this. As mjb said, it varies. But, everything you suggested is correct. For certain, any prior clerkship experience puts you in a whole other ballpark from candidates without clerkship experience. Some judges worry about a future clerks writing, or ability to understand how chambers functions. MJ clerkship experience provides you will an opportunity to display and improve your writing, and an understanding to chambers and the court system.

Judges in general will vary on how involved they want to be in your hiring. my DJ has lunch with different MJ's regularly. She is friends with most of them. I'm sure if one of them mentioned their clerk is applying, she'd give it incredible weight. If a judge didn't know her, but wrote a letter of recommendation, I'm sure that would get great review as well. Especially if you have a local connection to the area, I'd just go for it. Even if you apply broadly to a district clerkship after - you can justify why you went to a flyover district for a magistrate clerkship, because you wanted to be closer to home. That's not to say that you even need to justify it, but just so you have that as a backup.

[Anonymous User]

I received an interview yesterday and the judge told me to call or email his staff to arrange a date and time. I called initially, but no response, so I followed up with an email. I did not hear back yesterday. Also nothing today.

Is this normal? This is my first interview so I have no idea what to expect with respect to this kind of stuff. I am hoping that it has something to do with the holidays or staff needing to coordinate with the judge's availability. Or maybe this judge's chambers just move slowly in general?

Thanks!

[rpupkin]

I received an interview yesterday and the judge told me to call or email his staff to arrange a date and time. I called initially, but no response, so I followed up with an email. I did not hear back yesterday. Also nothing today.

Is this normal?

Yes. Judge's chambers are often slow to respond to this kind of thing. The JA is probably just trying to find a date and time that works for the judge. Relax and don't worry.

[mjb447]

Could be any of those things or lots of others. No way to know, but it's completely normal, it almost certainly doesn't say anything about your application, and there's not much else you should do at this point.