Clerks Taking Questions Forum

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:57 pm

sanzgo wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:After law school, I worked for two years at a non-biglaw job, clerked on COA for a year, and am now heading to biglaw. The firm is letting me come in with my class year, although they gave me the choice to cut a year.

Did I make the wrong choice?
No. You made the right choice. Last year, for example, the difference in market pay between a third-year and fourth-year associate was $40k. If you had voluntarily cut a class year, you would have given up that money for no good reason.

The counter-argument is basically a scam that law firms pull on lateral and post-clerkship hires in order to save money: "If you come in a class year or two lower, you'll have that much more time to be evaluated for partnership." That is generally not a good argument (at least not for the associate) for a couple of related reasons. First, the overwhelming majority of associates don't make partner. You're very likely going to be gone after a few years anyway, so accepting a lower class year in the hopes of making partner is generally a poor gamble. Second, very few law firms still operate on a strict, Cravath-style up-and-out model. At most big law firms, there isn't some hard line where the firm states: "Okay, you're now a seventh-year associate, so you have to leave." It's way mushier than that. If the firm needs bodies, they'll generally be happy if you stick around, even if you're not going to make partner. But if the firm is hurting and needs to force folks out, then the fact that you're officially a sixth year versus a seventh year (or whatever) is not likely to matter anyway; they'll force out the people who are less productive.

In short, TCR is always to get as much class-year credit as you can get when accepting an offer at a firm.
Thanks--that's reassuring, and that was my reasoning. But then I started to panic because I've never worked in BL and I don't know whether I'll pull off jumping in as a fourth year.
wait so your law firm counted those two non-BL firm years as two BL years of class credit?
Yeah. I didn't expect that.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by clerk1251 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:02 pm

BVest wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
SoCalTacos wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?
What do you hope to gain by doing this? Seems like high risk low reward.
Just to sort of get a feel for the judge. Not very famous, don't know many former clerks. Not looking to bring it up in the interview.
Don't do this. It's weird.
I agree - super weird. If I was the clerk interviewing a candidate that did that, I'd think the person was strange.

Also, motion schedules get juggling around so much, who's to say it won't get rescheduled beforehand and then you're just there way to early.

Not sure about how the district where your judge sits works - but my courthouse doesn't even let people in the building unless they have business before the court and if you aren't on a list they will call to confirm. You don't want security to call your chambers hours before your scheduled interview - because that'd be even more awkward.

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WinterComing

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by WinterComing » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:30 pm

clerk1251 wrote:my courthouse doesn't even let people in the building unless they have business before the court
Your court is not open to the public? It just openly flouts the Constitutional tradition of open courts?

ETA: I'm sure you're right that the OP shouldn't show up at this hearing. That seems creepy. I just thought that one aspect of your comment seemed a bit odd.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by ggocat » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?
I think it's "alright" and not "weird." It will, however, be out of the ordinary. If noticed, it will be remembered and discussed.

Some people here seem to think it would be viewed negatively. I would view it positively. I've interacted with a lot of law students who just seem totally aloof. I usually like seeing the ones who go out of their way to be prepared. You're making an effort to actually be prepared by observing the judge's court proceeding. If in practice you are ever supposed to appear before a new judge or appellate panel, frequently the advice will be to go observe a proceeding with that judge/panel to get a feel for everything. The advice doesn't translate 100% to clerkships interviews, but I certainly wouldn't fault a candidate for doing so.

Given that other clerks seem to view it negatively, however, you're probably best off not doing it. Good luck.

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rpupkin

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:31 pm

Count me as a vote for "weird," or at least "potentially weird." For many hearings, the only folks in the courtroom are the parties, so the applicant might really stand out. If I was a clerk and noticed you in the courtroom, I would assume you had a special interest in the case.

Also, I share WinterComing's curiosity about clerk1251's closed court. Is it an Article III court? Is it a court of general jurisdiction?

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:10 pm

WinterComing wrote:
clerk1251 wrote:my courthouse doesn't even let people in the building unless they have business before the court
Your court is not open to the public? It just openly flouts the Constitutional tradition of open courts?

ETA: I'm sure you're right that the OP shouldn't show up at this hearing. That seems creepy. I just thought that one aspect of your comment seemed a bit odd.
Yeah, I'm confused by this too.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Thanks all - point taken

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BVest

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by BVest » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:40 pm

I didn't get the part about the court not being open (unless they mean, in the event the hearing is canceled and there's nothing happening in the courtroom). That said, a person in a courtroom for a hearing who is not a party or counsel to a hearing will often be asked who they are or what business they have (often because the court wants to know if the person is in the wrong court, there on the wrong day, there for a rescheduled hearing, misinformed about a hearing that's not actually scheduled, etc.)
Last edited by BVest on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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polareagle

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by polareagle » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:28 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
WinterComing wrote:
clerk1251 wrote:my courthouse doesn't even let people in the building unless they have business before the court
Your court is not open to the public? It just openly flouts the Constitutional tradition of open courts?

ETA: I'm sure you're right that the OP shouldn't show up at this hearing. That seems creepy. I just thought that one aspect of your comment seemed a bit odd.
Yeah, I'm confused by this too.
Yeah, that doesn't seem right.

I mean, at my COA, the CSOs get all inquisitive about anybody who visits the building on non-OA days (and maybe even on OA days), but they still let everybody in eventually.

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clerk1251

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by clerk1251 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:22 am

polareagle wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
WinterComing wrote:
clerk1251 wrote:my courthouse doesn't even let people in the building unless they have business before the court
Your court is not open to the public? It just openly flouts the Constitutional tradition of open courts?

ETA: I'm sure you're right that the OP shouldn't show up at this hearing. That seems creepy. I just thought that one aspect of your comment seemed a bit odd.
Yeah, I'm confused by this too.
Yeah, that doesn't seem right.

I mean, at my COA, the CSOs get all inquisitive about anybody who visits the building on non-OA days (and maybe even on OA days), but they still let everybody in eventually.
I'm fairly sure that anyone who said they were here just to visit and walk around, would be allowed to do so. However, at the entrance when you are going through security, the CSO's ask who you are here to see and have a list of all the court's matters that day - and will cross reference to make sure you are supposed to be there. So, if you say you are coming to interview with a Judge, they will probably call to verify. If you say you are just there to walk around, you're probably fine and will likely just be watched a bit more closely.

This is my second clerkship, and I found this to be the same case at my previous clerkship as well as at other courthouses I went to interview at.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:03 am

But the point is that people can just come and watch court because unless it's closed for a juvenile or such the public is welcome. So you don't need to have business before the court to show up in a courtroom or enter the building, which is why the original statement was confusing.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:35 pm

clerk1251 wrote:This is my second clerkship, and I found this to be the same case at my previous clerkship as well as at other courthouses I went to interview at.
Weird. I've entered at least twenty federal courthouses (and I've entered some of those courts dozens of times each), and I can't recall anyone asking why I was there. I just passed through security (showed driver's license, put my stuff through the scanner, walked through the metal detector), and then walked to whatever courtroom I needed to go to. A couple of those courthouses had a separate entrance for attorneys; it's possible that non-attorneys at the other entrance were questioned about their presence. But, in most of the courthouses I've entered, attorneys and non-attorneys use the same entrance.

Clerk1251: Were your clerkships (and various interviews) at small courthouses in rural locations with slow dockets? I guess I can imagine those courts having the luxury of having the CSOs verify the purpose of everyone's visit. Still seems strange, though.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:55 pm

polareagle wrote:I mean, at my COA, the CSOs get all inquisitive about anybody who visits the building on non-OA days (and maybe even on OA days), but they still let everybody in eventually.
I meant to say in my previous post: COA is different insofar as many COAs have regular oral-argument cycles, with predictable dark days when no court is in session. If it's not an OA day, it makes sense for security to ask where a visitor is going, as there are no public sessions to attend.

But clerk1251 clerks in district court, where schedules are busier and less predictable. At the district courts I end up in (which are generally busy courthouses in urban areas), the court would grind to a halt if security had to correlate and confirm every visitor with an ongoing matter.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:14 pm

In the Recipient's info section of a cover letter for a clerkship application, do you include the Judge's middle name or just the initial? I would think it depends on the judge's preference and what they usually use, but I am not positive and I want to confirm that there isn't a special rule for judges requiring full names or anything like that.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:In the Recipient's info section of a cover letter for a clerkship application, do you include the Judge's middle name or just the initial? I would think it depends on the judge's preference and what they usually use, but I am not positive and I want to confirm that there isn't a special rule for judges requiring full names or anything like that.
I'd go with the judge's preference, often available on OSCAR or court website. (Not usually a problem either way, and it raises the age-old hiring question, "would you want to work for someone who would ding you for ...?", but I understand your desire to get it right, pay attention to the details, etc.) There is no "rule" requiring full names.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:25 pm

And I've also never experienced anything like what clerk1251 seems to be describing (and I'm still not sure I understand how it works).

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:30 pm

Given my stats, is it even worth it to apply to some of the "elite" or "prestigious" Circuit Clerkships for 19-20 or 20-21? I'm not referring to feeder judges but those in the 2/9/DC circuits. I don't care much about the "prestige," but these places are home to me and I am ready to go home. Ideally, my circuit clerkship would be in one of these circuits and I would just stay put when it's done.

I'm top 1/3 at MVP class of 2016. Two years of Biglaw and a flyover district court clerkship by the time the 19-20 term starts. No law review, but significant writing experience (I believe it's why I got the district court clerkship). "Glowing" letters of recommendation according to my recommenders (I don't put much value here though).

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by jd20132013 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:31 pm

The second, ninth, and dc circuits are home to you ? I see.

But as always I never understand the is it worth it question. You don't lose anything so by definition it's worth it.
Last edited by jd20132013 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by runinthefront » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Given my stats, is it even worth it to apply to some of the "elite" or "prestigious" Circuit Clerkships for 19-20 or 20-21? I'm not referring to feeder judges but those in the 2/9/DC circuits. I don't care much about the "prestige," but these places are home to me and I am ready to go home. Ideally, my circuit clerkship would be in one of these circuits and I would just stay put when it's done.

I'm top 1/3 at MVP class of 2016. Two years of Biglaw and a flyover district court clerkship by the time the 19-20 term starts. No law review, but significant writing experience (I believe it's why I got the district court clerkship). "Glowing" letters of recommendation according to my recommenders (I don't put much value here though).
Even if your stats are subpar, what's the harm in applying?
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Given my stats, is it even worth it to apply to some of the "elite" or "prestigious" Circuit Clerkships for 19-20 or 20-21? I'm not referring to feeder judges but those in the 2/9/DC circuits. I don't care much about the "prestige," but these places are home to me and I am ready to go home. Ideally, my circuit clerkship would be in one of these circuits and I would just stay put when it's done.

I'm top 1/3 at MVP class of 2016. Two years of Biglaw and a flyover district court clerkship by the time the 19-20 term starts. No law review, but significant writing experience (I believe it's why I got the district court clerkship). "Glowing" letters of recommendation according to my recommenders (I don't put much value here though).
Rather than litigate again whether non-feeders in 2/9/DC are "elite" or "prestigious," I'll just say that you should apply - applying as an alum is even more idiosyncratic than applying during law school, having a d. ct. clerkship should also help and, as others are saying, you have little to lose.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:11 pm

The second, ninth, and dc circuits are home to you ? I see.
Believe it or not, some people grow up in two different cities and then move to a third for school, all three of which have enough family and ties to be their home.
Even if your stats are subpar, what's the harm in applying?
You are right. I don't think there is much harm. My professors would see me applying to these judges and might think I am crazy, but other than that, not much. But I guess I hesitate to such a large degree when I see things like top 5% of class or Law Review required that I think my chances are so low, if not zero, that it is not even worth applying. I don't hesitate because I feel like I have something to lose.
Rather than litigate again whether non-feeders in 2/9/DC are "elite" or "prestigious," I'll just say that you should apply - applying as an alum is even more idiosyncratic than applying during law school, having a d. ct. clerkship should also help and, as others are saying, you have little to lose.
I agree about not litigating that issue again. I did not mean to start a discussion about the "prestige" of these judges and what its worth to one's career, only whether categorically these judges are so far out my league that my chances are 0.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by jd20132013 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:21 pm

The ninth circuit literally spans a continent but ok.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:22 pm

runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Given my stats, is it even worth it to apply to some of the "elite" or "prestigious" Circuit Clerkships for 19-20 or 20-21? I'm not referring to feeder judges but those in the 2/9/DC circuits. I don't care much about the "prestige," but these places are home to me and I am ready to go home.
Seeing as how your "home" apparently spans New York, Alaska, Southern California, Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, and the District of Columbia, it's hard to see why you couldn't adjust your conception of "home" to cover some other circuits as well. If you want to clerk for a COA judge, apply to lots of COA judges in different circuits.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by runinthefront » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Even if your stats are subpar, what's the harm in applying?
You are right. I don't think there is much harm. My professors would see me applying to these judges and might think I am crazy, but other than that, not much. But I guess I hesitate to such a large degree when I see things like top 5% of class or Law Review required that I think my chances are so low, if not zero, that it is not even worth applying. I don't hesitate because I feel like I have something to lose.
If there is no discernible harm and you don't have anything to lose, you should apply. You never know. Good luck.
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by runinthefront » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:29 pm

rpupkin wrote:
runinthefront wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Given my stats, is it even worth it to apply to some of the "elite" or "prestigious" Circuit Clerkships for 19-20 or 20-21? I'm not referring to feeder judges but those in the 2/9/DC circuits. I don't care much about the "prestige," but these places are home to me and I am ready to go home.
Seeing as how your "home" apparently spans New York, Alaska, Southern California, Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Montana, and the District of Columbia, it's hard to see why you couldn't adjust your conception of "home" to cover some other circuits as well. If you want to clerk for a COA judge, apply to lots of COA judges in different circuits.
Although OP's original post can be construed as fairly broad, I did take it to mean that OP had ties to the DMV area + NY area + some particular region of the 9th circuit--and would therefore narrow his/her list down to the judges in the specific geographical areas.

Then again, that doesn't explain why the 4th Circuit isn't included (e.g., judges in Baltimore) or the 3rd isn't included (e.g., judges in NJ or Pa). OP could just be unwisely limiting his/her options.
Last edited by runinthefront on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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