Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[mjb447]

how many clerks were slightly confused/horrified when you first saw your judge in gym clothes?

I worked at a court where quite a few of the judges frequented the same gym as law clerks, so I've seen more than one. Thankfully no locker room experiences, but it was still more than enough pairs of retro workout short-shorts for one lifetime.

(Thanks for asking the important questions.)

[grand inquisitor]

i once wrongly and regrettably said something about my judge belonging to "the greatest generation" despite him being a boomer. judges all seem so grandparent-y that i got lost in the association.

[Anonymous User]

how many clerks were slightly confused/horrified when you first saw your judge in gym clothes?

Never saw that. Only time I saw him not in a suit was this. (My judge in pleated mom jeans; the Chief in blue chinos because he owns no jeans!).

Anon because it outs me by my judge, if you know the court.

[Anonymous User]

Do the judges actually call your references? I don't understand how they give such quick turn-around offers if they do.

Also, how much of the hiring decision is on the clerks as opposed to the judge?

[rpupkin]

Do the judges actually call your references? I don't understand how they give such quick turn-around offers if they do.

Also, how much of the hiring decision is on the clerks as opposed to the judge?

Depends. Some judges call references; some don't. My judge would talk to a reference before deciding to interview you. He may or may not want to contact someone else after the interview. Usually not.

As for the input of clerks, it varies widely. Some clerks play no role in the process at all--the judge won't even let them screen applicants; the judge and JA handle everything. My judge would have the clerks interview the applicant for about an hour before interviewing with the judge, and then he would ask us our thoughts afterward. We had input into the process, but none of us could veto an applicant. I think that's fairly common.

[mjb447]

Do the judges actually call your references? I don't understand how they give such quick turn-around offers if they do.

Also, how much of the hiring decision is on the clerks as opposed to the judge?

Yeah, (1) it varies and (2) it varies. A few of my references told me that they were contacted post-interview, but obviously that doesn't happen for on-the-spot offers, and not all judges do it otherwise, either. In my chambers, clerks aren't involved in the clerkship hiring process at all, but in a friend's chambers the clerks do all of the initial screening (i.e. a resume doesn't make it to the judge's desk unless a clerk likes that applicant), and in others the clerks spend some of the interview with the applicant and tell the judge what they think afterwards. No real consistency.

[polareagle]

Do the judges actually call your references? I don't understand how they give such quick turn-around offers if they do.

Also, how much of the hiring decision is on the clerks as opposed to the judge?

Yeah, (1) it varies and (2) it varies. A few of my references told me that they were contacted post-interview, but obviously that doesn't happen for on-the-spot offers, and not all judges do it otherwise, either. In my chambers, clerks aren't involved in the clerkship hiring process at all, but in a friend's chambers the clerks do all of the initial screening (i.e. a resume doesn't make it to the judge's desk unless a clerk likes that applicant), and in others the clerks spend some of the interview with the applicant and tell the judge what they think afterwards. No real consistency.

This. One of my judges called while I was meeting with the clerks (after I had already met with the judge) before giving me an on-the-spot offer.

[jrf12886]

Do the judges actually call your references? I don't understand how they give such quick turn-around offers if they do.

Also, how much of the hiring decision is on the clerks as opposed to the judge?

When my judges called references, it was before interviewing an applicant. Both involved the clerks in the hiring process. In fact, if a clerk felt strongly enough, they could probably veto an applicant.

[A. Nony Mouse]

My judges both had career clerks, who I'm pretty sure had a fair amount of input into the process. I sat in on interviews for one judge (and reviewed a writing sample), but didn't do anything for the other, and didn't have input into resumes/CLs for either (but both hired on idiosyncratic enough schedules that they weren't wading through vast numbers of applications).

I don't think either of them contacted my references - they just went off the letters. (That's the difference between clerkships and firm jobs - you have to submit LORs for clerkships so they know what your references would say, whereas firms don't.)

[Anonymous User]

I had 3 LORs but my references were 3 other people so I assume there would still be some point to call my references. I'm somewhat concerned because one my references is notoriously hard to get a hold of (professor). my current firm job's hiring department took a week+ to get him on the line and didn't give me the offer until afterwards.

[Anonymous User]

I missed OP's lesser-competitive-COA caveat. While I think my point still stands, its more applicable at the district level where things are faster-paced and former district court externs are therefore able to get a more clerk-like experience in the short time they are there. YMMV of course, but i've seen externship experience move the needle (especially when competing against otherwise highly-similar applicants), and heard clerkship applicants get asked why they didn't extern during an interview.

I don't doubt your experience, and an externship could potentially be a factor in your favor if you were in a tiebreaking situation with another applicant depending on what the judge values. I just don't want OP to get the impression that it's more important than it is. I think that for most judges, district or COA or whatever, an externship won't help you much unless you already have most or all of the other things that the judge wants (whether law school, GPA, law review, writing ability, recs/relationship to leverage, other work experience).

I mostly agree. The 80/20 principle definitely applies here, in that law students tend to focus their attention on the 80% of things in law school that only produce 20% of career-results (extracurriculars, board positions, clinics, volunteering, externships, TLS-post-count, etc.), rather than the 20% of things that produce 80% of career-results (grades, grades, and grades).

With the large caveat that an externship wont make up for a mediocre GPA/etc., externing can be very helpful when later applying for a clerkship. It shows you are genuinely interested in working for the judiciary, it shows that you likely did actual substantive work your 1L-summer, and it provides a good reference-experience that will make you a better interviewer (you will know how to interact with clerks/judges, have a sense of how a judge's chambers work, have more insightful questions for the clerks/judges, etc.)

I highly appreciate EVERYONE's comments - OP here (sorry it's taken a few days). Anyways, I am a 2L right now, and the externship will be fall of 3L year. I was just curious if it was at all worth considering. Right now I'm at top 15%, law review (reg. board position), and BL summer. I never thought about clerking but thought that perhaps if this gave me a chance I would consider it--whether it be the actual judge or a district court.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I had 3 LORs but my references were 3 other people so I assume there would still be some point to call my references. I'm somewhat concerned because one my references is notoriously hard to get a hold of (professor). my current firm job's hiring department took a week+ to get him on the line and didn't give me the offer until afterwards.

I don't know that many judges will bother contacting references if they have letters than tell them what they want to know. It would probably depend on whether they know any of the references or if there are any questions raised by the rest of your materials. Hiring a new clerk every year gets old fast and lots of judges don't want to take longer to do it than they have to. I'm sure some judges would take the extra step, but I'm sure others wouldn't.

[Anonymous User]

What are your thoughts on a writing sample that is more procedure heavy like a bench memo on a motion for default judgment? I wrote it during my judicial internship and have edited and updated it recently as my writing has improved. I'm a second year associate at a big law firm and all of the memos I've done at my firm are a bit controversial due to the nature of the matters. I asked and was told by my partners that I could not use those memos due to confidentiality even if i modified the facts / names. So, now I'm left to use my bench memo from my judicial internship.

[mjb447]

What are your thoughts on a writing sample that is more procedure heavy like a bench memo on a motion for default judgment? I wrote it during my judicial internship and have edited and updated it recently as my writing has improved. I'm a second year associate at a big law firm and all of the memos I've done at my firm are a bit controversial due to the nature of the matters. I asked and was told by my partners that I could not use those memos due to confidentiality even if i modified the facts / names. So, now I'm left to use my bench memo from my judicial internship.

I don't think "procedure heavy" is a problem. That said, IIRC a lot of default judgment motions are pretty cut-and-paste (and I'd imagine in a lot of chambers that's particularly the case for ones given to interns to work on), so my bigger concern would be whether it showcases your analytical skills.

[rpupkin]

What are your thoughts on a writing sample that is more procedure heavy like a bench memo on a motion for default judgment? I wrote it during my judicial internship and have edited and updated it recently as my writing has improved.

At least at the district court level, probably 75% of your writing will be "procedure heavy" in one sense or another, so there's nothing per se wrong with your memo. But heed mjb447's advice. A good writing sample would address an issue of some complexity and difficulty.

[Anonymous User]

Current transfer to CCN. Grades at my last school were top 5%, grades at my current school ~10-5% (We do not rank). I took a V5 offer in NYC intending to do corporate work. For a variety of reasons, I am rethinking this approach. I am now really interested in doing lit and want to pursue a clerkship. I have a writing sample and will likely have the recommenders I need by the end of this school term. Do I shoot for 2019? I may be stuck doing NYC transactional for a year...

[Anonymous User]

Current transfer to CCN. Grades at my last school were top 5%, grades at my current school ~10-5% (We do not rank). I took a V5 offer in NYC intending to do corporate work. For a variety of reasons, I am rethinking this approach. I am now really interested in doing lit and want to pursue a clerkship. I have a writing sample and will likely have the recommenders I need by the end of this school term. Do I shoot for 2019? I may be stuck doing NYC transactional for a year...

Sorry this is kinda half-assed. Two questions; Am I in trouble if I only do transactional my first year? Is 2019 doable at this point? And a third question is a blatant ask for advice on what I should do. Help!

[clerk1251]

Current transfer to CCN. Grades at my last school were top 5%, grades at my current school ~10-5% (We do not rank). I took a V5 offer in NYC intending to do corporate work. For a variety of reasons, I am rethinking this approach. I am now really interested in doing lit and want to pursue a clerkship. I have a writing sample and will likely have the recommenders I need by the end of this school term. Do I shoot for 2019? I may be stuck doing NYC transactional for a year...

Sorry this is kinda half-assed. Two questions; Am I in trouble if I only do transactional my first year? Is 2019 doable at this point? And a third question is a blatant ask for advice on what I should do. Help!

You have two options:

Look for 2018, and just tell the firm that you accepted a clerkship - thereby you don't need to do any corp work

or

Apply for 2019. Go corp for a year. Make a ton of money. Get a good sense of whether you like it or not. Then go clerk for a year, and get a good sense of how you like litigation. Assuming you are applying now as a student, you don't need to indicate what practice you'll be in at the firm. Most 3L's don't know what they want to do. If you indicate that you will be at a firm for a year on your resume, that's really all you'll need. You should have an even easier time securing a clerkship with this on there as well.

Doesn't sound like you've articulated much of a reason for not wanting to do corporate, and I assume you summered at this firm and were in the corporate practice. I think a year of corp, with an end in sight, would be a pretty decent option. I don't see why it would come up on an interview with a judge, but it will make applying to firms afterwards a little easier. You can craft the story that you were practicing corporate, realized you wanted to transition to litigation, accepted a clerkship, and now are looking to get into a good litigation firm.

[Anonymous User]

Current transfer to CCN. Grades at my last school were top 5%, grades at my current school ~10-5% (We do not rank). I took a V5 offer in NYC intending to do corporate work. For a variety of reasons, I am rethinking this approach. I am now really interested in doing lit and want to pursue a clerkship. I have a writing sample and will likely have the recommenders I need by the end of this school term. Do I shoot for 2019? I may be stuck doing NYC transactional for a year...

Sorry this is kinda half-assed. Two questions; Am I in trouble if I only do transactional my first year? Is 2019 doable at this point? And a third question is a blatant ask for advice on what I should do. Help!

I'm a d.ct clerk in a competitive district in charge of hiring for my chambers. My sense is that, at least for district courts, 2018 is filling up fast, but that 2019 hiring is just starting. So 2019 is definitely doable, 2018 might be doable if you can get your shit together and get lucky with a judge who hasnt filled their spots yet.

You likely wont have to explain your prior transactional focus to the judge. If they ask what area of law you are interested in going into, obviously talk about some litigation area, or give a broad answer (e.g., i'm interested in solving complex problems, but not sure what area of law exactly, which is why I want to clerk, etc.)

[Anonymous User]

Current transfer to CCN. Grades at my last school were top 5%, grades at my current school ~10-5% (We do not rank). I took a V5 offer in NYC intending to do corporate work. For a variety of reasons, I am rethinking this approach. I am now really interested in doing lit and want to pursue a clerkship. I have a writing sample and will likely have the recommenders I need by the end of this school term. Do I shoot for 2019? I may be stuck doing NYC transactional for a year...

Sorry this is kinda half-assed. Two questions; Am I in trouble if I only do transactional my first year? Is 2019 doable at this point? And a third question is a blatant ask for advice on what I should do. Help!

I'm a d.ct clerk in a competitive district in charge of hiring for my chambers. My sense is that, at least for district courts, 2018 is filling up fast, but that 2019 hiring is just starting. So 2019 is definitely doable, 2018 might be doable if you can get your shit together and get lucky with a judge who hasnt filled their spots yet.

You likely wont have to explain your prior transactional focus to the judge. If they ask what area of law you are interested in going into, obviously talk about some litigation area, or give a broad answer (e.g., i'm interested in solving complex problems, but not sure what area of law exactly, which is why I want to clerk, etc.)

I am in a similar situation as the first poster, but some differences: I am a first-year (PVMB) transactional attorney in New York hoping to switch into litigation. Long story of how I ended up there, but my resume screams litigation (as much as a recent grad's resume can of course). I have genuinely always wanted to clerk and now I can use this as a transition opportunity for me as well. I submitted my applications last month. I applied to mostly 2018 positions and even a good amount of 2017 positions that I found still open on OSCAR.

Is there anything more I can do at this point to improve my chances of securing a clerkship? Do I have a better shot at some of the 2017 applications because it is so late in the game? Should I start applying for 2019? I've exhausted the openings on OSCAR for 2017 and 2018 and I've looked through TLS forums to try to get a lead, but other than that I am not really sure. I have heard of people calling Chambers and asking if they're hiring, but is there a systematic way to do it? Do I just go through a list? My materials are ready and given my situation (stuck in transactional), I'm very flexible geographically and starting date/timing-wise.

Thanks!

[clerk1251]

Current transfer to CCN. Grades at my last school were top 5%, grades at my current school ~10-5% (We do not rank). I took a V5 offer in NYC intending to do corporate work. For a variety of reasons, I am rethinking this approach. I am now really interested in doing lit and want to pursue a clerkship. I have a writing sample and will likely have the recommenders I need by the end of this school term. Do I shoot for 2019? I may be stuck doing NYC transactional for a year...

Sorry this is kinda half-assed. Two questions; Am I in trouble if I only do transactional my first year? Is 2019 doable at this point? And a third question is a blatant ask for advice on what I should do. Help!

I'm a d.ct clerk in a competitive district in charge of hiring for my chambers. My sense is that, at least for district courts, 2018 is filling up fast, but that 2019 hiring is just starting. So 2019 is definitely doable, 2018 might be doable if you can get your shit together and get lucky with a judge who hasnt filled their spots yet.

You likely wont have to explain your prior transactional focus to the judge. If they ask what area of law you are interested in going into, obviously talk about some litigation area, or give a broad answer (e.g., i'm interested in solving complex problems, but not sure what area of law exactly, which is why I want to clerk, etc.)

I am in a similar situation as the first poster, but some differences: I am a first-year (PVMB) transactional attorney in New York hoping to switch into litigation. Long story of how I ended up there, but my resume screams litigation (as much as a recent grad's resume can of course). I have genuinely always wanted to clerk and now I can use this as a transition opportunity for me as well. I submitted my applications last month. I applied to mostly 2018 positions and even a good amount of 2017 positions that I found still open on OSCAR.

Is there anything more I can do at this point to improve my chances of securing a clerkship? Do I have a better shot at some of the 2017 applications because it is so late in the game? Should I start applying for 2019? I've exhausted the openings on OSCAR for 2017 and 2018 and I've looked through TLS forums to try to get a lead, but other than that I am not really sure. I have heard of people calling Chambers and asking if they're hiring, but is there a systematic way to do it? Do I just go through a list? My materials are ready and given my situation (stuck in transactional), I'm very flexible geographically and starting date/timing-wise.

Thanks!

It sounds like you are doing everything right. These things just take time. I think applying to all the openings you see for 2017 is a good approach, as you are able to move on short notice. Keep at it for 2017 and 2018. I'd hold off on 2019 applications, unless you are comfortable staying up for that long (which it doesn't sound like you want to do).

Calling chambers is ok, but I'd spend some time filtering out once who already have OSCAR accounts - as the majority of chambers use OSCAR and thus calling would be a waste of your time and theirs. That being said, if you find a judge you are interested in, who doesn't post on OSCAR, a polite call to inquire as to if they are still accepting applications for 2018, would be fine.

Two last bits of advice: First, consider looking on the websites for various districts. I know a number of places that won't post on OSCAR if they have an opening, but they will instead put it in the careers section on their court's homepage. Second, I don't know if you are excluding magistrate judge's from your applications, but they tend to be a little easier, and will be a great stepping stone to a second clerkship, or a simple transition back to a litigation firm. They also typically don''t hire as far out so you may find a number of openings for 2017 and 2018 still remain.

[Anonymous User]

I am in a similar situation as the first poster, but some differences: I am a first-year (PVMB) transactional attorney in New York hoping to switch into litigation. Long story of how I ended up there, but my resume screams litigation (as much as a recent grad's resume can of course). I have genuinely always wanted to clerk and now I can use this as a transition opportunity for me as well. I submitted my applications last month. I applied to mostly 2018 positions and even a good amount of 2017 positions that I found still open on OSCAR.

Is there anything more I can do at this point to improve my chances of securing a clerkship? Do I have a better shot at some of the 2017 applications because it is so late in the game? Should I start applying for 2019? I've exhausted the openings on OSCAR for 2017 and 2018 and I've looked through TLS forums to try to get a lead, but other than that I am not really sure. I have heard of people calling Chambers and asking if they're hiring, but is there a systematic way to do it? Do I just go through a list? My materials are ready and given my situation (stuck in transactional), I'm very flexible geographically and starting date/timing-wise.

Thanks!

You seem to be doing all the right things. Only thing I would say is to reach out to your school's career services office/any connected professors to ask that they keep you in the loop as they hear of positions opening up. Sometimes they know about really short-notice clerkship openings (a clerk quits/gets fired/etc.), which you are well positioned for given that you aren't in law school and are willing to leave your firm.

I would also just start sending out paper applications to every judge in a district/circuit you want to clerk for, regardless of whether or not they are on OSCAR. Just get a list from wikipedia/the court website and start mailing application packets. It cant hurt you (other than the cost of a priority mail envelope), and sometimes it pays off big time (by getting your resume in the hands of a decision-maker when it would otherwise be buried in an electronic pile on OSCAR).

[clerk1251]

I am in a similar situation as the first poster, but some differences: I am a first-year (PVMB) transactional attorney in New York hoping to switch into litigation. Long story of how I ended up there, but my resume screams litigation (as much as a recent grad's resume can of course). I have genuinely always wanted to clerk and now I can use this as a transition opportunity for me as well. I submitted my applications last month. I applied to mostly 2018 positions and even a good amount of 2017 positions that I found still open on OSCAR.

Is there anything more I can do at this point to improve my chances of securing a clerkship? Do I have a better shot at some of the 2017 applications because it is so late in the game? Should I start applying for 2019? I've exhausted the openings on OSCAR for 2017 and 2018 and I've looked through TLS forums to try to get a lead, but other than that I am not really sure. I have heard of people calling Chambers and asking if they're hiring, but is there a systematic way to do it? Do I just go through a list? My materials are ready and given my situation (stuck in transactional), I'm very flexible geographically and starting date/timing-wise.

Thanks!

You seem to be doing all the right things. Only thing I would say is to reach out to your school's career services office/any connected professors to ask that they keep you in the loop as they hear of positions opening up. Sometimes they know about really short-notice clerkship openings (a clerk quits/gets fired/etc.), which you are well positioned for given that you aren't in law school and are willing to leave your firm.

I would also just start sending out paper applications to every judge in a district/circuit you want to clerk for, regardless of whether or not they are on OSCAR. Just get a list from wikipedia/the court website and start mailing application packets. It cant hurt you (other than the cost of a priority mail envelope), and sometimes it pays off big time (by getting your resume in the hands of a decision-maker when it would otherwise be buried in an electronic pile on OSCAR).

I disagree with this advice.

[Anonymous User]

I disagree with this advice.

Maybe it varies chambers to chambers, but I cant imagine how it could hurt to mass mail applications. The worst that would happen (at least in my chambers) is the application gets thrown away unopened. The best that could happen is that it gets opened and something catches the opening-clerk's eye, which gets the application some further review. Not all judges use OSCAR, and even among those that do, some will interview people who mail them paper applications before even opening an OSCAR posting for that term.

What do you think is wrong with this advice? I cant imagine being so angry that someone mailed us an unsolicited application that I would go out of my way to blackball that applicant, but maybe thats a bad assumption?

[clerk1251]

I disagree with this advice.

Maybe it varies chambers to chambers, but I cant imagine how it could hurt to mass mail applications. The worst that would happen (at least in my chambers) is the application gets thrown away unopened. The best that could happen is that it gets opened and something catches the opening-clerk's eye, which gets the application some further review. Not all judges use OSCAR, and even among those that do, some will interview people who mail them paper applications before even opening an OSCAR posting for that term.

What do you think is wrong with this advice? I cant imagine being so angry that someone mailed us an unsolicited application that I would go out of my way to blackball that applicant, but maybe thats a bad assumption?

So many reasons. First and most obviously, I imagine that keeping some aspect of control over his applications is important to this poster. I imagine he hasn't told his firm he is planning on leaving, or unhappy there. So he will want to keep a degree of anonymity to this process. If he wants to call judges that don't already state on OSCAR they have filled a position, to inquire if they are still interviewing, that's one thing - but to blanket every judge in the country, that's just absurd. Also, I don't know how your school did it, but at the top tiered schools, most paper applications need to be mailed from the law school, that way they can include official copies of transcripts and LORs. It seems silly to apply to judges you find on wikipedia, who very clearly state on OSCAR they have already completed hiring. Thirdly, when you have someone who is willing to go just about anywhere - they usually still do some sort of methodical approach, in the sense that they'd still prefer some locations over others. If you just apply everywhere, you are stuck taking whatever comes your way and close out any other possibilities. And last but not least, some chambers might actually take an approach like this to be a poor reflection on both the candidate and the law school (specifically when he has stated he only has career law clerks, or has completed hiring until x year).

Therefore, as I said, blanket mailing is a very poor approach and a lazy approach. Put in the time, cross reference wikipedia with OSCAR, get the chambers phone numbers from your school's database, and call any that don't clearly indicate they have already completed hiring or are not hiring.