Clerks Taking Questions Forum

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mjb447

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:29 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:People keep talking about Justice Thomas' "random" hires. They aren't random. Those are people that are SCOTUS-level smart and also line up ideologically with Justice Thomas. So it's not like every top-of-their-class-at-a-lower-ranked-school has an equal shot. They really only have a shot if they have a legal philosophy that lines up well with Justice Thomas' and have a way to show that.
I don't think they're random at all -- I think they're a purposeful fuck-you from JT to Harvard, Yale and Stanford.
I think only one person referred to those hires as "random." I mentioned Justice Thomas because I took OP's question w/r/t SCOTUS to be "is it necessary to go to a school more highly ranked than 'T25ish' to be a SCOTUS clerk," and based on what I remember about SCOTUS hiring, the answer is functionally "yes" for most justices, but the answer is different for Justice Thomas. There may be lots of other necessary criteria to be hired by Justice Thomas that OP doesn't meet.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:YMMV, but I think it's not ideal. Right now it sounds like your other samples really just demonstrate your ability to summarize what someone else said, which is far short of what most judges hope to see in a sample. Can you turn one of those memos into an analytical piece, i.e. "here's what various courts have done and the right approach is..." or make up a factual scenario to apply your case law to? Just spitballing.
Same anon. Appreciate the advice, and I agree that it's really not ideal. I have a follow-up if you have a second.

I have a 1L memo that would do the trick, but there's a particular error my Prof pointed out on revision that gives me pause: I said a court held a factor cut one way b/c X, Y and Z, when in actuality the court held the factor went the other way, but had negligible weight. Essentially, my unedited copy has the rationale right, but the holding and corresponding rule need to be rephrased. The memo is otherwise good, but I've yet to use it as a writing sample for obvious reasons. Thoughts on severity of the problem / whether clerks and judges tend to read the cases cited in the memo? I've also considered just condensing the memo for brevity and taking that factor out of the analysis.
Where I've worked, they generally didn't review closely enough to catch that error, but I'm sure it varies a lot. Kind of a sticky situation ethically to omit a portion of your writing sample based on that feedback, even if it's also for brevity (at least if you're going to represent that it's self-edited), although it's unlikely you'd be caught and I don't think it's as bad as changing the sample and representing that it's unedited.
Last edited by mjb447 on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
mjb447 wrote:YMMV, but I think it's not ideal. Right now it sounds like your other samples really just demonstrate your ability to summarize what someone else said, which is far short of what most judges hope to see in a sample. Can you turn one of those memos into an analytical piece, i.e. "here's what various courts have done and the right approach is..." or make up a factual scenario to apply your case law to? Just spitballing.
Same anon. Appreciate the advice, and I agree that it's really not ideal. I have a follow-up if you have a second.

I have a 1L memo that would do the trick, but there's a particular error my Prof pointed out on revision that gives me pause: I said a court held a factor cut one way b/c X, Y and Z, when in actuality the court held the factor went the other way, but had negligible weight. Essentially, my unedited copy has the rationale right, but the holding and corresponding rule need to be rephrased. The memo is otherwise good, but I've yet to use it as a writing sample for obvious reasons. Thoughts on severity of the problem / whether clerks and judges tend to read the cases cited in the memo? I've also considered just condensing the memo for brevity and taking that factor out of the analysis.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't you just fix the issue that your professor identified before submitting the writing sample to judges?
Last edited by rpupkin on Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by TatteredDignity » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:People keep talking about Justice Thomas' "random" hires. They aren't random. Those are people that are SCOTUS-level smart and also line up ideologically with Justice Thomas. So it's not like every top-of-their-class-at-a-lower-ranked-school has an equal shot. They really only have a shot if they have a legal philosophy that lines up well with Justice Thomas' and have a way to show that.
By "random," I didn't mean unqualified. I meant there's no way for someone to predict whether they'll be his TT hire in any given year. And aligned philosophies are necessary but obviously not sufficient. Think of how many dozens fit that mold.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by lavarman84 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:56 pm

lawlorbust wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:People keep talking about Justice Thomas' "random" hires. They aren't random. Those are people that are SCOTUS-level smart and also line up ideologically with Justice Thomas. So it's not like every top-of-their-class-at-a-lower-ranked-school has an equal shot. They really only have a shot if they have a legal philosophy that lines up well with Justice Thomas' and have a way to show that.
I don't think they're random at all -- I think they're a purposeful fuck-you from JT to Harvard, Yale and Stanford.
Could just be Justice Thomas recognizing that the best of the best at schools outside the t14 can stack up to the best of the best within the t14. Doesn't have to send any message. Especially when the other Justices are leaving him with his pick of the litter because they aren't willing to seriously consider those candidates.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:17 pm

.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by lavarman84 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Same anon again.
mjb447 wrote: Where I've worked, they generally didn't review closely enough to catch that error, but I'm sure it varies a lot. Kind of a sticky situation ethically to omit a portion of your writing sample based on that feedback, even if it's also for brevity (at least if you're going to represent that it's self-edited), although it's unlikely you'd be caught and I don't think it's as bad as changing the sample and representing that it's unedited.
Hmm, valid point re: omitting given my knowledge of the feedback. Will probably just submit as is and live with it - it's my second string writing sample, so I shouldn't have to use it too often.
rpupkin wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't you just fix the issue that your professor identified before submitting the writing sample to judges?
I've been under the impression judges are interested in unedited writing samples only - so if I fix the error, I then have to indicate on my cover sheet that the writing sample is edited and face the unmeasured wrath of law clerks everywhere. Are edited writing samples kosher? That would seem to defeat the purpose of a writing sample.
Judges will usually tell you if they want a completely self-edited writing sample or if they want to know the extent to which outside editing was done. Otherwise, it's kosher.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:12 am

Anonymous User wrote:
rpupkin wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't you just fix the issue that your professor identified before submitting the writing sample to judges?
I've been under the impression judges are interested in unedited writing samples only - so if I fix the error, I then have to indicate on my cover sheet that the writing sample is edited and face the unmeasured wrath of law clerks everywhere. Are edited writing samples kosher? That would seem to defeat the purpose of a writing sample.
I was under the impression that you were talking about a 1L Legal Writing memo. I've never encountered a LRW memo that was "unedited" in the normal sense of that word. Typically, LRW memos involve drafts or outlining exercises in which an earlier version of your memo is reviewed by an instructor or TA, who gives you feedback. In my view, a post-final-draft edit of what is essentially an already-edited memo doesn't make a difference.

If a judge specifically asks for something that was entirely unedited, then you probably don't want to use a Legal Writing memo anyway.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:10 am

Just finished my first semester at a lower T14 and I'd like to do a federal district court clerkship, but I feel like I'm facing an uphill battle. My GPA (3.6) only puts me in about the top third of my class. Even worse, I didn't develop any strong relationships with professors, including probably the most famous prof at my school, my first semester.

Does anyone have advice on how to build these kinds of relationships and cultivate a good list of recommenders? And also what the minimum GPA would be from a lower T14 to have a realistic chance at a district court clerkship? Basically trying to see if I can turn things around enough within the next two semesters to be able to do this.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by mjb447 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:Just finished my first semester at a lower T14 and I'd like to do a federal district court clerkship, but I feel like I'm facing an uphill battle. My GPA (3.6) only puts me in about the top third of my class. Even worse, I didn't develop any strong relationships with professors, including probably the most famous prof at my school, my first semester.

Does anyone have advice on how to build these kinds of relationships and cultivate a good list of recommenders? And also what the minimum GPA would be from a lower T14 to have a realistic chance at a district court clerkship? Basically trying to see if I can turn things around enough within the next two semesters to be able to do this.
Clerkship hiring is really idiosyncratic, so it's difficult to provide a hard GPA cutoff, but I don't think you're out of the running (although your reach may be more limited to secondary markets). You've got a lot of time to do better, and it's almost always worth applying given the relatively small investment and potentially large payoff. There are also opportunities for alums later on if you're still interested, and your grades are a little less meaningful at that point.

Re: getting decent recommenders, I can only offer the usual advice of asking questions and participating in class, going to office hours, that sort of thing, particularly in smaller classes. If you can be a research assistant or something (I was a TA for an undergrad class that one of my recommenders was teaching) that's a particularly good opportunity, although it may be hard to come by opportunities like that, especially until 2L.

ETA It sounds like you're probably already doing this right, but just in case: a rec from someone who knows you well is always going to be more effective than a rec from a famous prof who doesn't, so make sure that any prof's 'fame' is secondary to his ability to say insightful things about you.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:Just finished my first semester at a lower T14 and I'd like to do a federal district court clerkship, but I feel like I'm facing an uphill battle. My GPA (3.6) only puts me in about the top third of my class. Even worse, I didn't develop any strong relationships with professors, including probably the most famous prof at my school, my first semester.

Does anyone have advice on how to build these kinds of relationships and cultivate a good list of recommenders? And also what the minimum GPA would be from a lower T14 to have a realistic chance at a district court clerkship? Basically trying to see if I can turn things around enough within the next two semesters to be able to do this.
First of all, congrats on the 3.6. That's not a GPA you should beat yourself up about at all--any T14 school is filled with brilliant overachievers and to finish well above median after your first semester is a very good accomplishment. I am not sure what you mean by lower T14, but at UVA where I go/went, a 3.6 is competitive for most federal district clerkships, especially if you're not geographically picky. TLS gets super-focused on feeder juges, CoA generally, and the top 2% of competitive district clerkships (SDNY, EDNY, NDCal, and DDC) to the detriment of the vast majority of clerkship applicants. You probably aren't competitive for any of the "elite" gigs but there are a ton of great judges out there who you could be attractive to if you keep up/improve your grades.

In terms of building professor recommendations hardly anyone has a network in place after 1L fall so you're not behind. This semester target a professor or two who you think might be a good fit as a recommender and participate in their class, get to know them during office hours, make conversation with them if you see them at a talk/reception/after class, etc. I would also email a professor or two who you did well with in the fall and ask if you can review your exam. If there's a particular "name" professor you're concerned about, take a class with him/her during 2L or even better, see if you can get an RA job with them (it sounds like you've already had a famous professor you'd be interested in--I think you'd be totally within your bounds to drop them an email, thank them for the experience in the fall, and ask if they're looking for RA help, now or even over the summer).

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by clerk1251 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:21 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just finished my first semester at a lower T14 and I'd like to do a federal district court clerkship, but I feel like I'm facing an uphill battle. My GPA (3.6) only puts me in about the top third of my class. Even worse, I didn't develop any strong relationships with professors, including probably the most famous prof at my school, my first semester.

Does anyone have advice on how to build these kinds of relationships and cultivate a good list of recommenders? And also what the minimum GPA would be from a lower T14 to have a realistic chance at a district court clerkship? Basically trying to see if I can turn things around enough within the next two semesters to be able to do this.
First of all, congrats on the 3.6. That's not a GPA you should beat yourself up about at all--any T14 school is filled with brilliant overachievers and to finish well above median after your first semester is a very good accomplishment. I am not sure what you mean by lower T14, but at UVA where I go/went, a 3.6 is competitive for most federal district clerkships, especially if you're not geographically picky. TLS gets super-focused on feeder juges, CoA generally, and the top 2% of competitive district clerkships (SDNY, EDNY, NDCal, and DDC) to the detriment of the vast majority of clerkship applicants. You probably aren't competitive for any of the "elite" gigs but there are a ton of great judges out there who you could be attractive to if you keep up/improve your grades.

In terms of building professor recommendations hardly anyone has a network in place after 1L fall so you're not behind. This semester target a professor or two who you think might be a good fit as a recommender and participate in their class, get to know them during office hours, make conversation with them if you see them at a talk/reception/after class, etc. I would also email a professor or two who you did well with in the fall and ask if you can review your exam. If there's a particular "name" professor you're concerned about, take a class with him/her during 2L or even better, see if you can get an RA job with them (it sounds like you've already had a famous professor you'd be interested in--I think you'd be totally within your bounds to drop them an email, thank them for the experience in the fall, and ask if they're looking for RA help, now or even over the summer).

I agree with all of this. I'd also add, that while this might be a goal to work towards and something to start planning for now, most judges will not take applications from students with less than three semesters of grades. A lot of judges now require four semesters. That gives you a year, to a year and a half to get everything in order.

Grades: Like the poster above said, 3.6 from a T14 is great! You will be competitive for a number of clerkships, and I'd encourage you to be flexible on geography and apply broadly when the time comes.

Recommenders: Start building relationships. Go to office hours, ask questions, and go to lunchtime talks of professors you like. Don't worry as much if you can't get the number one professor at your school. At my school, the number one professor was a very hard person to build a relationship with, and he didn't often write LOR's. I did much better simply building relationships with professors I really liked, and their letter ended up being much better for me. Also, don't forget that you will have a summer of work experience and possibly a few semesters of externship work if you undertake any. Make sure to ask your supervisor for a letter of recommendation when you are done.

Other things you can do: A year is a long time. I'd recommend you start networking. Network with your schools former clerks. Join the Federal Bar Association and go to networking events where you will have an opportunity to meet judges. Start talking with your school's career service clerkship office so you get on their radar.

Last note, judges hire at all different points in time, for all different terms, and clerkships open all the time throughout the year, often even on short notice. If you strike out your 2L year, that doesn't mean you will strike out your 3L year. If you strike out your 3L year, it will be even easier to apply as a graduate. Don't worry too much. Don't make your entire law school experience about securing a clerkship. Enjoy yourself.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:17 pm

I can't believe a 3.6 only puts you in the top 1/3 after your first semester. You would graduate in the top 10% at my school with a 3.6.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:30 pm

clerk1251 wrote:Other things you can do: A year is a long time. I'd recommend you start networking. Network with your schools former clerks. Join the Federal Bar Association and go to networking events where you will have an opportunity to meet judges. Start talking with your school's career service clerkship office so you get on their radar.
Networking got me a clerkship. If your career services office is anything like mine, they talk about networking all the time and you're tired of hearing about it but it really is important. I was able to build a relationship with a local judge who teaches as an adjunct. That judge recommended me to a judge/friend of his that led directly to an interview and a clerkship.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:05 pm

Anon with the 3.6 here. I really appreciate and am encouraged by the advice from everyone. I think what you're all saying makes a lot of sense-- I'll just try and be better about reaching out to people this semester and being more proactive about that. And try to crush my spring exams, obviously.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:28 pm

General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by rpupkin » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
It's really common for already-good (but not quite top-of-the class) students to get excellent grades during 2L and 3L. Your GPA going up isn't that big of a deal. But if you want to clerk in CADC or DDC in '19-20, go ahead and apply.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
This may be the dumbest question in TLS history but if you didn't already have a 4.0, how did your grades go up to a 4.0?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by BVest » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
This may be the dumbest question in TLS history but if you didn't already have a 4.0, how did your grades go up to a 4.0?
A+ at 4.3.
Last edited by BVest on Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:37 am

BVest wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
This may be the dumbest question in TLS history but if you didn't already have a 4.0, how did your grades go up to a 4.0?
A+ at 4.3.
Ahh. My school only goes up to an A.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by clerk1251 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:17 am

rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
It's really common for already-good (but not quite top-of-the class) students to get excellent grades during 2L and 3L. Your GPA going up isn't that big of a deal. But if you want to clerk in CADC or DDC in '19-20, go ahead and apply.
I agree with this. Although it almost sounds like you are asking if you could get out of your current clerkship in place of a CACD or DDC one. If that's what your asking, I'm sure you must know what a bad idea that would be. Look to '19-20.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by RaceJudicata » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:57 am

clerk1251 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
It's really common for already-good (but not quite top-of-the class) students to get excellent grades during 2L and 3L. Your GPA going up isn't that big of a deal. But if you want to clerk in CADC or DDC in '19-20, go ahead and apply.
I agree with this. Although it almost sounds like you are asking if you could get out of your current clerkship in place of a CACD or DDC one. If that's what your asking, I'm sure you must know what a bad idea that would be. Look to '19-20.
That is how I read it as well.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Lincoln » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:58 am

clerk1251 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
It's really common for already-good (but not quite top-of-the class) students to get excellent grades during 2L and 3L. Your GPA going up isn't that big of a deal. But if you want to clerk in CADC or DDC in '19-20, go ahead and apply.
I agree with this. Although it almost sounds like you are asking if you could get out of your current clerkship in place of a CACD or DDC one. If that's what your asking, I'm sure you must know what a bad idea that would be. Look to '19-20.
Not only is it a bad idea, but why would anyone want to replace a semi-feeder with a DDC clerkship?

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:37 pm

Lincoln wrote:
clerk1251 wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:General questions for future or current clerks.

I'm at a T14 and am clerking for a semi-feeder in '18-19. My grades just went way up due to lady luck last semester (now a cumulative 4.0). I feel like these are too good to waste and that I should go hard for CADC or DDC. At the same time, I already have a clerkship, so that might be stupid. Any general pieces of advice? My current mood is to strike while the iron is hot, but at the same time I am questioning why I need to strike at all.
It's really common for already-good (but not quite top-of-the class) students to get excellent grades during 2L and 3L. Your GPA going up isn't that big of a deal. But if you want to clerk in CADC or DDC in '19-20, go ahead and apply.
I agree with this. Although it almost sounds like you are asking if you could get out of your current clerkship in place of a CACD or DDC one. If that's what your asking, I'm sure you must know what a bad idea that would be. Look to '19-20.
Not only is it a bad idea, but why would anyone want to replace a semi-feeder with a DDC clerkship?

OP here. I agree that it's a bad idea. I mean to apply for '19-20 in addition to my existing '18-19. Thanks for the insight on how the grade thing is perhaps unexceptional.

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Re: Clerks Taking Questions

Post by lavarman84 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:42 pm

I have a two-year D. Ct. clerkship lined up. I am applying to one-year COA clerkships to follow it. How much wiggle room does a judge normally give for choosing the end-date?

I figure this will eventually be a bridge I have to cross (possibly), so I want to make sure that I'm not applying for COA clerkships that would be completely out of the realm of reasonableness in terms of the start-date.

Let's say that my start date is August 15th, 2017 (hypothetically).

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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