Like many things in this realm, it probably depends on the judge and the methods by which the clerks review apps.rpupkin wrote:Yeah, I was assuming Anon would do the bolded, but I don't think that doubling up on applications is a good idea. I doubt it will have the effect that you think it will. I could be wrong, though.Barrred wrote:Disagree. I'd apply to both on OSCAR, or at least clearly indicate in your cover letter that you are applying for both start dates.rpupkin wrote:Apply to one.Anonymous User wrote:If a judge has two postings up on OSCAR for essentially the same term (like, one starts in June and the other in August), any thoughts on applying to both vs. just applying to one?
Clerks Taking Questions Forum
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
- rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
You're right. Anon: I would call chambers and ask for their preference.Barrred wrote:Like many things in this realm, it probably depends on the judge and the methods by which the clerks review apps.rpupkin wrote:Yeah, I was assuming Anon would do the bolded, but I don't think that doubling up on applications is a good idea. I doubt it will have the effect that you think it will. I could be wrong, though.Barrred wrote:Disagree. I'd apply to both on OSCAR, or at least clearly indicate in your cover letter that you are applying for both start dates.rpupkin wrote:Apply to one.Anonymous User wrote:If a judge has two postings up on OSCAR for essentially the same term (like, one starts in June and the other in August), any thoughts on applying to both vs. just applying to one?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I expect I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyways. Do you think age of a judge matters? Basically, I'm curious if judges in their 80s are more difficult to clerk for than younger judges. My expectation is that I'll get an "it depends on the judge" answer. My fear would be a judge declining mentally which would put more stress on the clerks. Maybe that's just totally unfounded.
- A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I am flashing back to a Law & Order episode which involved a clerk covering for her aged judge's increasing dementia by IMing him what to say in the courtroom (because she needed the job and couldn't afford for him to retire). Ripped from the headlines indeed.
- rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
No strong opinions here, but I'll relay something that folks often say when the age of a judge comes up for a clerkship applicant: One of the benefits of clerking is that you'll likely gain a lifelong mentor and advocate. If your judge doesn't have many years left to live, you don't get to enjoy that benefit for very long.lavarman84 wrote:I expect I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyways. Do you think age of a judge matters? Basically, I'm curious if judges in their 80s are more difficult to clerk for than younger judges. My expectation is that I'll get an "it depends on the judge" answer. My fear would be a judge declining mentally which would put more stress on the clerks. Maybe that's just totally unfounded.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
That's a good point as well.rpupkin wrote:No strong opinions here, but I'll relay something that folks often say when the age of a judge comes up for a clerkship applicant: One of the benefits of clerking is that you'll likely gain a lifelong mentor and advocate. If your judge doesn't have many years left to live, you don't get to enjoy that benefit for very long.lavarman84 wrote:I expect I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyways. Do you think age of a judge matters? Basically, I'm curious if judges in their 80s are more difficult to clerk for than younger judges. My expectation is that I'll get an "it depends on the judge" answer. My fear would be a judge declining mentally which would put more stress on the clerks. Maybe that's just totally unfounded.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I clerk for a judge in his 80s, and I love it. He's still very sharp mentally, but he's got a much more laid-back attitude than all of the younger judges in the circuit, which makes him a very pleasant person to work for. (This has more to do with personality than age, but, based on stories about past years, I think age has played a role in mellowing him out even more.) I think he does rely on us more than the active judges rely on their clerks, mostly just because he doesn't have the energy to do as much himself. This can be be both stressful and rewarding for his clerks. That is to say, it's mentally stressful. But our hours are probably the best in the circuit, since he isn't around as much and just cares that we get our work done, not that we stay in the office for a certain number of hours per week regardless of whether we're being productive or not. He's also full of interesting stories and insights about the practice of law back in the '50s, '60s, and '70s and about the changes in the court system over the decades. Obviously of course it depends on the judge, but my experience clerking for an older judge has been fantastic.lavarman84 wrote:I expect I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyways. Do you think age of a judge matters? Basically, I'm curious if judges in their 80s are more difficult to clerk for than younger judges. My expectation is that I'll get an "it depends on the judge" answer. My fear would be a judge declining mentally which would put more stress on the clerks. Maybe that's just totally unfounded.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Related - what's the experience of clerking for a judge who has taken senior status? There are a few interesting CoA judges who have - Williams and Selya spring to mind - that are hiring.
- rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
It varies widely. Some senior-status judges drastically reduce their caseload; their clerks have almost nothing to do. Other senior-status judges remain just as busy as they were when in active status. Most are in between.Anonymous User wrote:Related - what's the experience of clerking for a judge who has taken senior status?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I appreciate the insight!Anonymous User wrote:I clerk for a judge in his 80s, and I love it. He's still very sharp mentally, but he's got a much more laid-back attitude than all of the younger judges in the circuit, which makes him a very pleasant person to work for. (This has more to do with personality than age, but, based on stories about past years, I think age has played a role in mellowing him out even more.) I think he does rely on us more than the active judges rely on their clerks, mostly just because he doesn't have the energy to do as much himself. This can be be both stressful and rewarding for his clerks. That is to say, it's mentally stressful. But our hours are probably the best in the circuit, since he isn't around as much and just cares that we get our work done, not that we stay in the office for a certain number of hours per week regardless of whether we're being productive or not. He's also full of interesting stories and insights about the practice of law back in the '50s, '60s, and '70s and about the changes in the court system over the decades. Obviously of course it depends on the judge, but my experience clerking for an older judge has been fantastic.lavarman84 wrote:I expect I know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyways. Do you think age of a judge matters? Basically, I'm curious if judges in their 80s are more difficult to clerk for than younger judges. My expectation is that I'll get an "it depends on the judge" answer. My fear would be a judge declining mentally which would put more stress on the clerks. Maybe that's just totally unfounded.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
The number of staff a senior judge is authorized to hire is based on his/her caseload, so the clerks should have about as much to do even if the judge's caseload is reduced. In the Third Circuit, at least, a senior judge who has a caseload between 40-60% of an active judge's is certified for three staff, usually one assistant and two clerks. So, if a judge has a 55% caseload, his two clerks will actually have more cases per clerk than an active judge's four clerks, while a judge with a 45% caseload will have a slightly lighter caseload per clerk. Senior judges only sit on en banc panels if they were on the original three-judge panel, so a senior judge's clerk won't have to worry about many en banc cases, but overall they have pretty comparable jobs to an active judge's clerks.rpupkin wrote:It varies widely. Some senior-status judges drastically reduce their caseload; their clerks have almost nothing to do. Other senior-status judges remain just as busy as they were when in active status. Most are in between.Anonymous User wrote:Related - what's the experience of clerking for a judge who has taken senior status?
Source (and a useful read if you're interested in learning more about senior judges): http://lawrepository.ualr.edu/cgi/viewc ... iceprocess
- rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Different circuits handle this differently, but, yes, senior status judges usually have reduced staffs. But, based on what I've observed, it's not consistently the case that staff/clerk load is reduced proportional to the judge's actual workload.Laser Lady wrote:The number of staff a senior judge is authorized to hire is based on his/her caseload, so the clerks should have about as much to do even if the judge's caseload is reduced. In the Third Circuit, at least, a senior judge who has a caseload between 40-60% of an active judge's is certified for three staff, usually one assistant and two clerks.rpupkin wrote:It varies widely. Some senior-status judges drastically reduce their caseload; their clerks have almost nothing to do. Other senior-status judges remain just as busy as they were when in active status. Most are in between.Anonymous User wrote:Related - what's the experience of clerking for a judge who has taken senior status?
Many senior-status COA judges hire just one clerk. I'm not going to out anyone, but a classmate of mine clerked for a senior status COA judge (who is no longer with us), and my classmate did virtually nothing for 12 months. She would attend oral arguments and just hang out. She asked her judge if she could offer to help out another judge on the court who seemed busy, but her judge said no--even though her judge was rarely there and almost never asked for help with anything. At first, she enjoyed the light workload, but she got really bored after a couple of months and ended up regretting the clerkship.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
At my court, there is a senior status district judge who is well-known for basically being entirely checked out in that he lets his clerks, within reason, come and go as they please, work on motions as long as they want, and take as much vacation time as they want. The judge only comes in a couple days per week, takes long vacations, and generally has very little involvement with his docket.rpupkin wrote:Different circuits handle this differently, but, yes, senior status judges usually have reduced staffs. But, based on what I've observed, it's not consistently the case that staff/clerk load is reduced proportional to the judge's actual workload.Laser Lady wrote:The number of staff a senior judge is authorized to hire is based on his/her caseload, so the clerks should have about as much to do even if the judge's caseload is reduced. In the Third Circuit, at least, a senior judge who has a caseload between 40-60% of an active judge's is certified for three staff, usually one assistant and two clerks.rpupkin wrote:It varies widely. Some senior-status judges drastically reduce their caseload; their clerks have almost nothing to do. Other senior-status judges remain just as busy as they were when in active status. Most are in between.Anonymous User wrote:Related - what's the experience of clerking for a judge who has taken senior status?
Many senior-status COA judges hire just one clerk. I'm not going to out anyone, but a classmate of mine clerked for a senior status COA judge (who is no longer with us), and my classmate did virtually nothing for 12 months. She would attend oral arguments and just hang out. She asked her judge if she could offer to help out another judge on the court who seemed busy, but her judge said no--even though her judge was rarely there and almost never asked for help with anything. At first, she enjoyed the light workload, but she got really bored after a couple of months and ended up regretting the clerkship.
That said, his clerks still have plenty to do. They can just wear jeans most days and can let things pile up on CJRA without the judge caring at all.
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- jrf12886
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
My experience has been similar. I think it's unusual that a clerk's workload would go up when a judge goes senior. Although senior judges do lose clerks as they reduce their caseload, it seems to be a generous curve (by that I mean, they have to reduce their case load more than 1/3 to lose 1 of their 3 clerks). Also in federal court, going senior means the judge can opt out of many administrative duties (being applications judge, sitting on committees, etc) and, on (some of?) the District Court(s), can opt out of entire types of cases (pro se is a common type that senior judges immediately stop taking).rpupkin wrote:Different circuits handle this differently, but, yes, senior status judges usually have reduced staffs. But, based on what I've observed, it's not consistently the case that staff/clerk load is reduced proportional to the judge's actual workload.Laser Lady wrote:The number of staff a senior judge is authorized to hire is based on his/her caseload, so the clerks should have about as much to do even if the judge's caseload is reduced. In the Third Circuit, at least, a senior judge who has a caseload between 40-60% of an active judge's is certified for three staff, usually one assistant and two clerks.rpupkin wrote:It varies widely. Some senior-status judges drastically reduce their caseload; their clerks have almost nothing to do. Other senior-status judges remain just as busy as they were when in active status. Most are in between.Anonymous User wrote:Related - what's the experience of clerking for a judge who has taken senior status?
Many senior-status COA judges hire just one clerk. I'm not going to out anyone, but a classmate of mine clerked for a senior status COA judge (who is no longer with us), and my classmate did virtually nothing for 12 months. She would attend oral arguments and just hang out. She asked her judge if she could offer to help out another judge on the court who seemed busy, but her judge said no--even though her judge was rarely there and almost never asked for help with anything. At first, she enjoyed the light workload, but she got really bored after a couple of months and ended up regretting the clerkship.
- mjb447
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
There's a senior COA judge on a court I'm familiar with who hires one clerk and only hires people who have something else to occupy most of the day (e.g. stay at home parent telecommuting) because the workload is so light. A few others on the same court have a full caseload, and I think they have a full complement of clerks.
- BVest
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Going back to the judge in his 80s question: My judge was in his mid-70s. On the one hand, there's the lifelong mentor and reference that you get with a younger judge, as rpupkin mentioned. OTOH, judges who have been on the bench forever have a much larger network of former clerks, which can also be helpful, especially if you're being particular about where you want to land post-clerkship (and this can happen with younger judges who have been on the bench a long time as well, of course). As a result, I see that as a bit of a wash.
The obvious risk with a judge in his 80s is -- especially if you're taking a clerkship 12-18 months in advance of your start date -- he may not still be around when it's time to start. But then you see judges like Sr. Judge Thomas Reavley who was appointed by Carter and apparently just posted a new clerkship position. He's 96.
The obvious risk with a judge in his 80s is -- especially if you're taking a clerkship 12-18 months in advance of your start date -- he may not still be around when it's time to start. But then you see judges like Sr. Judge Thomas Reavley who was appointed by Carter and apparently just posted a new clerkship position. He's 96.
Last edited by BVest on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Its hard to overstate the value of access to a large network of your judge's former clerks, especially at the COA level where most have gone on to do big things. Also, while mentorship longevity will surely be decreased with an old judge, the intensity/quality of the mentorship may actually increase because the judge has more experience/wisdom, and because mentorship often becomes very important to older judges who aren't concerned with climbing the influence/career ladder themselves anymore.BVest wrote:Going back to the judge in his 80s question: My judge was in his mid-70s. On the one hand, there's the lifelong mentor and reference that you get with a younger judge, as rpupkin mentioned. OTOH, judges who have been on the bench forever have a much larger network of former clerks, which can also be helpful, especially if you're being particular about where you want to land post-clerkship (and this can happen with younger judges who have been on the bench a long time as well, of course). As a result, I see that as a bit of a wash.
The obvious risk with a judge in his 80s is -- especially if you're taking a clerkship 12-18 months in advance of your start date -- he may not still be around when it's time to start. But then you see judges like Sr. Judge Thomas Reavley who was appointed by Carter and apparently just posted a new clerkship position. He's 96.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
These are great points. I'm kind of waffling, but I'll likely apply to the judge. Considering my odds, I shouldn't pass on decent opportunities.Barrred wrote:Its hard to overstate the value of access to a large network of your judge's former clerks, especially at the COA level where most have gone on to do big things. Also, while mentorship longevity will surely be decreased with an old judge, the intensity/quality of the mentorship may actually increase because the judge has more experience/wisdom, and because mentorship often becomes very important to older judges who aren't concerned with climbing the influence/career ladder themselves anymore.BVest wrote:Going back to the judge in his 80s question: My judge was in his mid-70s. On the one hand, there's the lifelong mentor and reference that you get with a younger judge, as rpupkin mentioned. OTOH, judges who have been on the bench forever have a much larger network of former clerks, which can also be helpful, especially if you're being particular about where you want to land post-clerkship (and this can happen with younger judges who have been on the bench a long time as well, of course). As a result, I see that as a bit of a wash.
The obvious risk with a judge in his 80s is -- especially if you're taking a clerkship 12-18 months in advance of your start date -- he may not still be around when it's time to start. But then you see judges like Sr. Judge Thomas Reavley who was appointed by Carter and apparently just posted a new clerkship position. He's 96.
- mjb447
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
You should certainly apply if you're COA or bust, but if you're invited to interview that's another thing that you should talk to former clerks about if it's important to you. Some judges are pretty deliberate about mentorship and/or really lean in to the whole "chambers is an extended family" thing (I know a few who have annual reunions at their homes). Others, not so much. I'm not sure age is a reliable indicator.lavarman84 wrote:These are great points. I'm kind of waffling, but I'll likely apply to the judge. Considering my odds, I shouldn't pass on decent opportunities.Barrred wrote:Its hard to overstate the value of access to a large network of your judge's former clerks, especially at the COA level where most have gone on to do big things. Also, while mentorship longevity will surely be decreased with an old judge, the intensity/quality of the mentorship may actually increase because the judge has more experience/wisdom, and because mentorship often becomes very important to older judges who aren't concerned with climbing the influence/career ladder themselves anymore.BVest wrote:Going back to the judge in his 80s question: My judge was in his mid-70s. On the one hand, there's the lifelong mentor and reference that you get with a younger judge, as rpupkin mentioned. OTOH, judges who have been on the bench forever have a much larger network of former clerks, which can also be helpful, especially if you're being particular about where you want to land post-clerkship (and this can happen with younger judges who have been on the bench a long time as well, of course). As a result, I see that as a bit of a wash.
The obvious risk with a judge in his 80s is -- especially if you're taking a clerkship 12-18 months in advance of your start date -- he may not still be around when it's time to start. But then you see judges like Sr. Judge Thomas Reavley who was appointed by Carter and apparently just posted a new clerkship position. He's 96.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I clerked for an active judge in his... late 60s/early 70s? I can't remember now. But he definitely could have taken senior status if he wanted to. Still extremely sharp and definitely knew what he was doing by this time, but the hours were very laid back and it was more of a "as long as you get your work done" kind of mentality. The clerks' hours were largely around 9-5 except for the days where we had a trial ongoing and/or just needed to get something done. The judge would leave early many days, but he'd often drive the clerks to lunch at least once a week, and when he was in his chambers he was very accessible and willing to talk about literally whatever (but obviously mostly about work). The only unfortunate thing is that since it's a flyover district, I don't really talk to my judge or any of the alumni clerks all that much since very few of them are out here where I am now.
Of course you could also work for like Judge Carter in CDCal who I believe is in his mid-70s and still holds hearings through like midnight and weekends etc. if he feels the need to. Can't imagine how much work his clerks have to do.
And sadly I did interview with one judge who didn't give me an offer but died before that clerkship would have started. I was told by one of the judge's previous clerks (who knew and recommended me) that was probably why I didn't get an offer -- because the judge would have preferred to offer the clerkship to somebody already in practice who wouldn't end up in as tough of a spot if that happened.
So all of that does happen and it depends on the judge. Just like everything else, I guess.
Of course you could also work for like Judge Carter in CDCal who I believe is in his mid-70s and still holds hearings through like midnight and weekends etc. if he feels the need to. Can't imagine how much work his clerks have to do.
And sadly I did interview with one judge who didn't give me an offer but died before that clerkship would have started. I was told by one of the judge's previous clerks (who knew and recommended me) that was probably why I didn't get an offer -- because the judge would have preferred to offer the clerkship to somebody already in practice who wouldn't end up in as tough of a spot if that happened.
So all of that does happen and it depends on the judge. Just like everything else, I guess.
I also remember this episode. I think the judge got removed from the bench and the clerk lost her job/got reported to the bar or something. So don't do this.I am flashing back to a Law & Order episode which involved a clerk covering for her aged judge's increasing dementia by IMing him what to say in the courtroom (because she needed the job and couldn't afford for him to retire). Ripped from the headlines indeed.
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I know you can't refuse an offer from a judge, but if you do get an offer and want to notify another judge of the offer before accepting, what do you say to the offering judge? Can you ask for 48 hours? Should you say you also just received another offer and want a day or two to consider (to give you time to contact the other judge)?
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
I recently accepted a district court clerkship for 2018-19. The judge was appointed to the bench just a few years ago. Is there anything I should know or be aware of with such a new and young judge? FWIW, I spoke to the judge's former and current clerks and they all said this judge is laid-back.
- rpupkin
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Probably a quarter of the judges in the federal judiciary were appointed within the last few years. There's nothing special or unusual about your situation that you need to prepare for.Anonymous User wrote:I recently accepted a district court clerkship for 2018-19. The judge was appointed to the bench just a few years ago. Is there anything I should know or be aware of with such a new and young judge? FWIW, I spoke to the judge's former and current clerks and they all said this judge is laid-back.
- BulletTooth
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
This question doesn't really make sense. If you get the offer, you accept it on the spot and notify the other judge you interviewed with that you've accepted an offer and need to withdraw your application. I would definitely not ask for 48 hours to consider the offer as it may look like you're using the offer to try and leverage other judges to give you offers.Anonymous User wrote:I know you can't refuse an offer from a judge, but if you do get an offer and want to notify another judge of the offer before accepting, what do you say to the offering judge? Can you ask for 48 hours? Should you say you also just received another offer and want a day or two to consider (to give you time to contact the other judge)?
- A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Clerks Taking Questions
Eh, there are definitely judges who will give you time to make a decision (both judges I clerked for expressly gave me time to decide on the basis that I might get something better for me in the meantime, although it may be unusual for a judge to put it that way).
I agree though that you don't want to look like you're trying to pressure anyone or leverage anything. If the offering judge gives you time to decide, AND you've already interviewed with another judge, I think it's fair to go back to them and say "I received an offer, I have until whenever to answer, and wondered if Judge X has made a decision yet."
If you haven't already interviewed with another judge I think trying to use an offer to get an interview gets really ishy. I think some judges would be okay with it but the ones who won't be REALLY won't be.
I also think if the judge doesn't volunteer that you have time to decide/otherwise indicates they want an immediate answer, you pretty much have to answer right away. Again, the judges who will be offended by you asking for more time will likely be really offended (and those who wouldn't be will likely volunteer the time so you're not on the spot).
But that's really based on my own experience so kind of anecdotal.
I agree though that you don't want to look like you're trying to pressure anyone or leverage anything. If the offering judge gives you time to decide, AND you've already interviewed with another judge, I think it's fair to go back to them and say "I received an offer, I have until whenever to answer, and wondered if Judge X has made a decision yet."
If you haven't already interviewed with another judge I think trying to use an offer to get an interview gets really ishy. I think some judges would be okay with it but the ones who won't be REALLY won't be.
I also think if the judge doesn't volunteer that you have time to decide/otherwise indicates they want an immediate answer, you pretty much have to answer right away. Again, the judges who will be offended by you asking for more time will likely be really offended (and those who wouldn't be will likely volunteer the time so you're not on the spot).
But that's really based on my own experience so kind of anecdotal.
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