Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[Anonymous User]

Most recent anon here. Thanks all for the answers. I really appreciate them. Let me add some things:

I don't really know the outside clerks. They said to me that Judge's clerks were miserable, because Judge was demanding impatient etc. I know then indirectly, so I'm honestly not personally comfortable asking them "well, demanding how?" BUT I understand everyone's point here: my information is not perfect and it would be foolish to throw away an opportunity based on indirect information.

Fwiw, the former Judge's clerks mentioned that Judge was stern, and not exactly a touchy feely type. But they did say they keep in contact with the judge and learned a lot.

I don't expect you guys to look into this crystal ball and tell me who is right and who is wrong here.

But it would be really great if someone can share any interview tips for discerning if I'd get along with the judge. Or if I come to believe that the judge really is a bad boss, whether that's still worthwhile. I admit I've been spooked by the "does anyone hate clerking" thread.

[rpupkin]

Even assuming the judge is "mean," it's hard to say whether you should turn down. Having a bad boss for a year can be a good life experience. You will bond with your co clerks and will learn about what you perceive to be bad management. Maybe it will strengthen your character. Not to mention of course the potential career benefit.

It's certainly true that difficult--even miserable--experiences can strengthen one's character, but I generally come down on the side of avoiding the most difficult of judges. OP, I suggest browsing this thread, if you have not already done so:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=259620

[rpupkin]

But it would be really great if someone can share any interview tips for discerning if I'd get along with the judge. Or if I come to believe that the judge really is a bad boss, whether that's still worthwhile. I admit I've been spooked by the "does anyone hate clerking" thread.

Ah, you scooped my previous post. Anyway, although some difficult judges show their stripes during interviews, most judges can be likable and charming when they need to be. I don't think there's anything in particular you should do/ask during the interview.

Probably the most helpful thing you can do at this point is to talk to more former clerks of the judge.

[ggocat]

I generally come down on the side of avoiding the most difficult of judges.

Me too, honestly. Just pointing out a counter-argument. I wouldn't put up with it now, but might have for a year at the start of my career.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone worked at a firm a year or two, clerked, and then came back to a firm (ideally the same one) with a clerkship bonus? Does this happen?

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone worked at a firm a year or two, clerked, and then came back to a firm (ideally the same one) with a clerkship bonus? Does this happen?

I'll be doing this. I'm finishing up my first year now and have a clerkship lined up for 18-19. Thinking about circuit clerkships for 19-20, but otherwise, back to biglaw.

[radio1nowhere]

I know you can't refuse an offer from a judge, but if you do get an offer and want to notify another judge of the offer before accepting, what do you say to the offering judge? Can you ask for 48 hours? Should you say you also just received another offer and want a day or two to consider (to give you time to contact the other judge)?

This question doesn't really make sense. If you get the offer, you accept it on the spot and notify the other judge you interviewed with that you've accepted an offer and need to withdraw your application. I would definitely not ask for 48 hours to consider the offer as it may look like you're using the offer to try and leverage other judges to give you offers.

I disagree, though it probably depends on the judge. Some judges give applicants time to consider offers without being asked, so I don't think it would be too unreasonable to ask for (a small amount of) time if the judge doesn't specify. If the judge doesn't want to give you time, he/she will probably say so, and you'll have to accept on the spot.

I was actually in a similar situation as anon: I got an offer from one judge the day before I had an interview with a judge I preferred. I asked for and received 24 hours to consider the first offer, did the second interview, got the second offer and accepted on the spot, and called the first judge back to politely explain that I had been faced with a difficult choice and had decided to accept another offer. No hard feelings, as far as I can tell.

Overall, of course — as many have said on this thread — clerkship hiring is really unpredictable and judge-focused. So this is probably the sort of call that you have to make in relation to what you know about the specific judge and the way he/she gives you the offer.

[jrf12886]

Has anyone worked at a firm a year or two, clerked, and then came back to a firm (ideally the same one) with a clerkship bonus? Does this happen?

Yes. 1 year at a firm, d. ct clerkship, coa clerkship, different firm (w/ bonus)

[rpupkin]

Has anyone worked at a firm a year or two, clerked, and then came back to a firm (ideally the same one) with a clerkship bonus? Does this happen?

Yes. 1 year at a firm, d. ct clerkship, coa clerkship, different firm (w/ bonus)

Yeah, that's pretty standard. And if you're returning to the same firm (as anon apparently wants to do), it generally works that way as well, though different firms have different policies. In general, if you want to maximize your leverage for a post-clerkship bonus and for class-year credit, it helps to have post-clerkship offers from multiple firms.

[Anonymous User]

After law school, I worked for two years at a non-biglaw job, clerked on COA for a year, and am now heading to biglaw. The firm is letting me come in with my class year, although they gave me the choice to cut a year.

Did I make the wrong choice? I figured I may as well take the money, because I'm not making partner. But now I'm wondering if I'm ready to come in as a mid-level and whether I'll end up making less because I'll get fired sooner.

[jd20132013]

how quick were you planning to leave ? U probably won't get fired for at least two years

[Anonymous User]

how quick were you planning to leave ? U probably won't get fired for at least two years

I'm hoping for three, which is probably unrealistic.

[rpupkin]

After law school, I worked for two years at a non-biglaw job, clerked on COA for a year, and am now heading to biglaw. The firm is letting me come in with my class year, although they gave me the choice to cut a year.

Did I make the wrong choice?

No. You made the right choice. Last year, for example, the difference in market pay between a third-year and fourth-year associate was $40k. If you had voluntarily cut a class year, you would have given up that money for no good reason.

The counter-argument is basically a scam that law firms pull on lateral and post-clerkship hires in order to save money: "If you come in a class year or two lower, you'll have that much more time to be evaluated for partnership." That is generally not a good argument (at least not for the associate) for a couple of related reasons. First, the overwhelming majority of associates don't make partner. You're very likely going to be gone after a few years anyway, so accepting a lower class year in the hopes of making partner is generally a poor gamble. Second, very few law firms still operate on a strict, Cravath-style up-and-out model. At most big law firms, there isn't some hard line where the firm states: "Okay, you're now a seventh-year associate, so you have to leave." It's way mushier than that. If the firm needs bodies, they'll generally be happy if you stick around, even if you're not going to make partner. But if the firm is hurting and needs to force folks out, then the fact that you're officially a sixth year versus a seventh year (or whatever) is not likely to matter anyway; they'll force out the people who are less productive.

In short, TCR is always to get as much class-year credit as you can get when accepting an offer at a firm.

[Anonymous User]

After law school, I worked for two years at a non-biglaw job, clerked on COA for a year, and am now heading to biglaw. The firm is letting me come in with my class year, although they gave me the choice to cut a year.

Did I make the wrong choice?

No. You made the right choice. Last year, for example, the difference in market pay between a third-year and fourth-year associate was $40k. If you had voluntarily cut a class year, you would have given up that money for no good reason.

The counter-argument is basically a scam that law firms pull on lateral and post-clerkship hires in order to save money: "If you come in a class year or two lower, you'll have that much more time to be evaluated for partnership." That is generally not a good argument (at least not for the associate) for a couple of related reasons. First, the overwhelming majority of associates don't make partner. You're very likely going to be gone after a few years anyway, so accepting a lower class year in the hopes of making partner is generally a poor gamble. Second, very few law firms still operate on a strict, Cravath-style up-and-out model. At most big law firms, there isn't some hard line where the firm states: "Okay, you're now a seventh-year associate, so you have to leave." It's way mushier than that. If the firm needs bodies, they'll generally be happy if you stick around, even if you're not going to make partner. But if the firm is hurting and needs to force folks out, then the fact that you're officially a sixth year versus a seventh year (or whatever) is not likely to matter anyway; they'll force out the people who are less productive.

In short, TCR is always to get as much class-year credit as you can get when accepting an offer at a firm.

Thanks--that's reassuring, and that was my reasoning. But then I started to panic because I've never worked in BL and I don't know whether I'll pull off jumping in as a fourth year.

[SoCalTacos]

Has anyone worked at a firm a year or two, clerked, and then came back to a firm (ideally the same one) with a clerkship bonus? Does this happen?

Yes. 1 year at a firm, d. ct clerkship, coa clerkship, different firm (w/ bonus)

Yeah, that's pretty standard. And if you're returning to the same firm (as anon apparently wants to do), it generally works that way as well, though different firms have different policies. In general, if you want to maximize your leverage for a post-clerkship bonus and for class-year credit, it helps to have post-clerkship offers from multiple firms.

So, for people who have done this, most of you were able to get the full 50k bonuses? Seems like many firms won't give "returning" associates the clerkship bonuses, so the negotiation strategy seems like it will be important to recoup at least some of that.

[jrf12886]

Has anyone worked at a firm a year or two, clerked, and then came back to a firm (ideally the same one) with a clerkship bonus? Does this happen?

Yes. 1 year at a firm, d. ct clerkship, coa clerkship, different firm (w/ bonus)

Yeah, that's pretty standard. And if you're returning to the same firm (as anon apparently wants to do), it generally works that way as well, though different firms have different policies. In general, if you want to maximize your leverage for a post-clerkship bonus and for class-year credit, it helps to have post-clerkship offers from multiple firms.

So, for people who have done this, most of you were able to get the full 50k bonuses? Seems like many firms won't give "returning" associates the clerkship bonuses, so the negotiation strategy seems like it will be important to recoup at least some of that.

Not sure that is always the case. I know someone who just received the full 2-clerkship bonus (75k) when s/he returned to a NYC V10 firm. I don't think there was any negoitiation involved. I expect this varies with market and firm (ie, more selective firms in major markets are more likely to pay the bonus as a matter of course). I also know someone who applied to a major firm in a medium sized market aftrer 2 clerkships, and was offered the full bonus but would have to drop down 1 class year.

[Dipper]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but are there any strongly recommended courses you should take to prepare for what you'd see as a clerk? I've heard Fed Courts, Evidence, and Crim Pro -- anything else? Corps?

[Anonymous User]

Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?

[SoCalTacos]

Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?

What do you hope to gain by doing this? Seems like high risk low reward.

[jd20132013]

Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?

This seems weird to me but idk that I would have dinged you

[Anonymous User]

Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?

What do you hope to gain by doing this? Seems like high risk low reward.

Just to sort of get a feel for the judge. Not very famous, don't know many former clerks. Not looking to bring it up in the interview.

[sanzgo]

After law school, I worked for two years at a non-biglaw job, clerked on COA for a year, and am now heading to biglaw. The firm is letting me come in with my class year, although they gave me the choice to cut a year.

Did I make the wrong choice?

No. You made the right choice. Last year, for example, the difference in market pay between a third-year and fourth-year associate was $40k. If you had voluntarily cut a class year, you would have given up that money for no good reason.

The counter-argument is basically a scam that law firms pull on lateral and post-clerkship hires in order to save money: "If you come in a class year or two lower, you'll have that much more time to be evaluated for partnership." That is generally not a good argument (at least not for the associate) for a couple of related reasons. First, the overwhelming majority of associates don't make partner. You're very likely going to be gone after a few years anyway, so accepting a lower class year in the hopes of making partner is generally a poor gamble. Second, very few law firms still operate on a strict, Cravath-style up-and-out model. At most big law firms, there isn't some hard line where the firm states: "Okay, you're now a seventh-year associate, so you have to leave." It's way mushier than that. If the firm needs bodies, they'll generally be happy if you stick around, even if you're not going to make partner. But if the firm is hurting and needs to force folks out, then the fact that you're officially a sixth year versus a seventh year (or whatever) is not likely to matter anyway; they'll force out the people who are less productive.

In short, TCR is always to get as much class-year credit as you can get when accepting an offer at a firm.

Thanks--that's reassuring, and that was my reasoning. But then I started to panic because I've never worked in BL and I don't know whether I'll pull off jumping in as a fourth year.

wait so your law firm counted those two non-BL firm years as two BL years of class credit?

[BVest]

Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?

What do you hope to gain by doing this? Seems like high risk low reward.

Just to sort of get a feel for the judge. Not very famous, don't know many former clerks. Not looking to bring it up in the interview.

Don't do this. It's weird.

[mjb447]

Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?

I wouldn't.

[Anonymous User]

Interview coming up. Judge has a motion hearing earlier that day. Is showing up to a motion hearing to watch the judge alright or will it come off as weird as fuck?

What do you hope to gain by doing this? Seems like high risk low reward.

Just to sort of get a feel for the judge. Not very famous, don't know many former clerks. Not looking to bring it up in the interview.

Don't do this. It's weird.

Fair enough