Clerks Taking Questions Forum

[mjb447]

I know you can't refuse an offer from a judge, but if you do get an offer and want to notify another judge of the offer before accepting, what do you say to the offering judge? Can you ask for 48 hours? Should you say you also just received another offer and want a day or two to consider (to give you time to contact the other judge)?

This question doesn't really make sense. If you get the offer, you accept it on the spot and notify the other judge you interviewed with that you've accepted an offer and need to withdraw your application. I would definitely not ask for 48 hours to consider the offer as it may look like you're using the offer to try and leverage other judges to give you offers.

I've heard of people trying to leverage an offer in hand into a faster decision from a preferred judge. It's risky, though. I don't think OP should say that he's entertaining multiple offers/shopping an offer to other judges, but the judge may assume that that's what's happening anyway (even if OP asks for time to "talk it over" with his sig other or something) and OP could lose the offer as a result. I guess OP has to decide if it's a risk worth taking. (Of course, some judges might be okay with it, but they aren't the problem.)

ETA Agree with Nony that, if you're offered time, and you've already interviewed with another judge, it's okay to check in about the other judge's timetable. I don't think I'd ask for time to do it, though.

[Anonymous User]

Does clerking for three years make any sense? I secured a D.Ct. and a COA in midwestern district. Of course, two days after I accept, I get a call from a COA judge in a more reputable Circuit for an interview. I told the Judge that I accepted another position and have since removed my other OSCAR applications. The judge actually asked me if I would consider the following year.

Does D.Ct. --> COA -->COA make any sense? At some point, I would like to earn and am inclined to think that back-to-back circuits after a district clerkship may not be favorably viewed by a firm.

Any general thoughts are welcome. As far as goals, I want to practice and earn substantive experience early. I'm not opposed to going into government for a few years, but the longterm goal is to be a biglaw partner one day.

Thanks.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yeah, I don't think I'd ask for time to do it, either.

[mjb447]

I recently accepted a district court clerkship for 2018-19. The judge was appointed to the bench just a few years ago. Is there anything I should know or be aware of with such a new and young judge? FWIW, I spoke to the judge's former and current clerks and they all said this judge is laid-back.

As usual, I'm not sure there's advice that applies well generally. It may be more likely that the judge will still be tinkering with some of the administrative stuff - case assignment, giving feedback, which templates s/he really likes, that kind of thing. Things may be a bit more in flux than would be the case in a chambers that had been around for decades. Of course, I'm sure there are scores of exceptions, and if it's been "a few years" things may also be pretty well settled. In any event, there's not much to do to prepare other than being flexible.

[mjb447]

Does clerking for three years make any sense? I secured a D.Ct. and a COA in midwestern district. Of course, two days after I accept, I get a call from a COA judge in a more reputable Circuit for an interview. I told the Judge that I accepted another position and have since removed my other OSCAR applications. The judge actually asked me if I would consider the following year.

Does D.Ct. --> COA -->COA make any sense? At some point, I would like to earn and am inclined to think that back-to-back circuits after a district clerkship may not be favorably viewed by a firm.

Any general thoughts are welcome. As far as goals, I want to practice and earn substantive experience early. I'm not opposed to going into government for a few years, but the longterm goal is to be a biglaw partner one day.

Thanks.

If your goal is substantive experience, I'm not sure two COA clerkships make sense - COA life is pretty removed from what most practicing attorneys do. I don't know a ton about private practice, but I think you could probably find a better way to spend a year. (Also, does the second COA judge have any particular advantages besides being on a "more reputable Circuit"?)

[Barrred]

I know you can't refuse an offer from a judge, but if you do get an offer and want to notify another judge of the offer before accepting, what do you say to the offering judge? Can you ask for 48 hours? Should you say you also just received another offer and want a day or two to consider (to give you time to contact the other judge)?

I don't think there is really a good answer to this. There is just a lot of awkwardness built into a system like this where judges have all the power and aren't used to subordinating their interests to others.

At the end of the interview with my COA judge, the judge told me that he would get back to me in a week or two with a decision, but asked me to promise to let him know before accepting an offer from another judge in the interim (to basically give him a right to swoop me up). I was in an awkward position, so I told him that I would do that. After the interview I was really sweating, trying to figure out how I would have that conversation with a subsequent judge giving me an offer. Luckily, it never came to that, as the first judge ended up giving me an offer the next day.

bottom line: clerkship hiring is often idiosyncratic and awkward, and i'm not sure theres any way around it.

[Anonymous User]

I know you can't refuse an offer from a judge, but if you do get an offer and want to notify another judge of the offer before accepting, what do you say to the offering judge? Can you ask for 48 hours? Should you say you also just received another offer and want a day or two to consider (to give you time to contact the other judge)?

I don't think there is really a good answer to this. There is just a lot of awkwardness built into a system like this where judges have all the power and aren't used to subordinating their interests to others.

At the end of the interview with my COA judge, the judge told me that he would get back to me in a week or two with a decision, but asked me to promise to let him know before accepting an offer from another judge in the interim (to basically give him a right to swoop me up). I was in an awkward position, so I told him that I would do that. After the interview I was really sweating, trying to figure out how I would have that conversation with a subsequent judge giving me an offer. Luckily, it never came to that, as the first judge ended up giving me an offer the next day.

bottom line: clerkship hiring is often idiosyncratic and awkward, and i'm not sure theres any way around it.

Yeah, I think this is the best advice here. If the judge makes you an offer read his or her tone and body language. Usually if the offer is open for a period, the judge will make that clear.

Another thing you should do is let a judge know if you have other interviews scheduled in the near future. In addition to full disclosure generally being a good thing this can help you in multiple ways: it can make the judge more likely to offer to you on the spot/quickly if the judge likes you and wants to get ahead of the other judge, and for some judges it may also lead them to keep the offer open to give you a chance to meet with the other judge.

[Anonymous User]

I have interviewed with two COA judges, one about a month ago and another two weeks ago. Absent any indication of when I'll hear back, can I call chambers to see where they are in the process? I don't want to get off their radar but I also don't want to be annoying.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I have interviewed with two COA judges, one about a month ago and another two weeks ago. Absent any indication of when I'll hear back, can I call chambers to see where they are in the process? I don't want to get off their radar but I also don't want to be annoying.

They're not going to forget about you if you don't contact them; judges don't interview *so* many candidates that you'll get lost in the crowd (unless they're REALLY idiosyncractic - it takes up too much time). So you're not going to be "off their radar." I don't think it's necessary to show continued interest the way people do when they send LOCI to get off law school waitlists, for instance.

Now, if you just want to know (which is totally understandable), that's another thing, but I think I wouldn't call unless you have some reason you actually need to know, like another offer or start date arrangements or something. If you do, that's totally legit and everyone will understand and call away. If you don't - I don't think it's terribly annoying to call, but I don't think it gains you much, either. Either the judge is still deciding, in which case they can't give you the info you want, or the judge has decided and hasn't chosen you, in which case you're in the same position you are now - you don't have the job. (Which is to say, you should assume you don't have the job until you hear otherwise.) Again, it's probably not that annoying to call, but it's kind of like the argument against sending a thank you note - it's one more opportunity to screw something up.

[mjb447]

I have interviewed with two COA judges, one about a month ago and another two weeks ago. Absent any indication of when I'll hear back, can I call chambers to see where they are in the process? I don't want to get off their radar but I also don't want to be annoying.

They're not going to forget about you if you don't contact them; judges don't interview *so* many candidates that you'll get lost in the crowd (unless they're REALLY idiosyncractic - it takes up too much time). So you're not going to be "off their radar." I don't think it's necessary to show continued interest the way people do when they send LOCI to get off law school waitlists, for instance.

Now, if you just want to know (which is totally understandable), that's another thing, but I think I wouldn't call unless you have some reason you actually need to know, like another offer or start date arrangements or something. If you do, that's totally legit and everyone will understand and call away. If you don't - I don't think it's terribly annoying to call, but I don't think it gains you much, either. Either the judge is still deciding, in which case they can't give you the info you want, or the judge has decided and hasn't chosen you, in which case you're in the same position you are now - you don't have the job. (Which is to say, you should assume you don't have the job until you hear otherwise.) Again, it's probably not that annoying to call, but it's kind of like the argument against sending a thank you note - it's one more opportunity to screw something up.

Agree with all of this. (Also, two weeks is almost no time at all - it'd be pretty early to check in with that judge in particular absent a pressing need.)

[Anonymous User]

On that note then, how long after an interview until I should start assuming I didn't get the gig? My D.Ct. was on the spot so it's hard to tell if waiting a month is a soft ding.

[Anonymous User]

On that note then, how long after an interview until I should start assuming I didn't get the gig? My D.Ct. was on the spot so it's hard to tell if waiting a month is a soft ding.

A month is definitely not long enough. It really varies by judge, but I heard back after 6 weeks. I know for some it takes as much as 2 months.

[Anonymous User]

On that note then, how long after an interview until I should start assuming I didn't get the gig? My D.Ct. was on the spot so it's hard to tell if waiting a month is a soft ding.

Honestly, you may have no idea. A lot of posters on here make it sound sure that you'll hear something at least sometime later from judges you interview with, but that was not true in my experience. I had two COA judges that I interviewed with in person who never talked to me ever again. I only found out 6 or 7 months later, after hearing from other sources, that they had hired others.

[mjb447]

On that note then, how long after an interview until I should start assuming I didn't get the gig? My D.Ct. was on the spot so it's hard to tell if waiting a month is a soft ding.

Honestly, you may have no idea. A lot of posters on here make it sound sure that you'll hear something at least sometime later from judges you interview with, but that was not true in my experience. I had two COA judges that I interviewed with in person who never talked to me ever again. I only found out 6 or 7 months later, after hearing from other sources, that they had hired others.

Think I've said this before, but a friend of mine interviewed with a COA judge and checked in months later after hearing nothing. JA told him judge had hired months ago and he should have "gotten the hint." I think a month is still too early (either to call or assume you didn't get it).

[84651846190]

I guess the judges I'm familiar with are different than the ones others know. From what I've heard, a month would be a very long time for a judge to be deliberating over a clerkship candidate. I would assume I didn't get the job if I hadn't heard anything for a month. The judges I know don't like spending an inordinate amount of time on clerkship hiring and just want to get it over with as soon as possible.

[JackKlompus]

Does anyone have any insight on how a possibly "non-traditional" law clerk will affect subsequent hiring chances at a bigger firm?

By that I mean, I'm a law clerk for a district court judge now, but I'm not right out of law school. I did a 2-year state appellate court clerkship, 14 months in litigation at a 30-ish attorney firm, about 14 months as an assistant district attorney in a rural county to get a little more court experience, and now I'm approaching 2 years in the district court clerkship. If I'm applying to a large firm's office in a secondary city, is this sequence better than the usual law school > clerkship > firm route? Worse?

Somewhat relatedly - how does the length of the clerkship affect the perception of its value/the candidate? In essence, the judge isn't rushing me out the door and there is no firm expiration on the clerkship other than the statutory max (4 years). However, I feel like it's about now that I should be thinking about leaving because hanging around much longer might be held against me.

Any thoughts on these issues?

[rpupkin]

Does anyone have any insight on how a possibly "non-traditional" law clerk will affect subsequent hiring chances at a bigger firm?

By that I mean, I'm a law clerk for a district court judge now, but I'm not right out of law school. I did a 2-year state appellate court clerkship, 14 months in litigation at a 30-ish attorney firm, about 14 months as an assistant district attorney in a rural county to get a little more court experience, and now I'm approaching 2 years in the district court clerkship. If I'm applying to a large firm's office in a secondary city, is this sequence better than the usual law school > clerkship > firm route? Worse?

It's worse for big law. Apply broadly and express a willingness to accept a significant class-year cut.

And, yes, every extra month you're staying in that clerkship is hurting your big-law chances at this point. You probably have an uphill climb anyway, but further delay will make things that much harder for you.

[Lincoln]

Does anyone have any insight on how a possibly "non-traditional" law clerk will affect subsequent hiring chances at a bigger firm?

By that I mean, I'm a law clerk for a district court judge now, but I'm not right out of law school. I did a 2-year state appellate court clerkship, 14 months in litigation at a 30-ish attorney firm, about 14 months as an assistant district attorney in a rural county to get a little more court experience, and now I'm approaching 2 years in the district court clerkship. If I'm applying to a large firm's office in a secondary city, is this sequence better than the usual law school > clerkship > firm route? Worse?

It's worse for big law. Apply broadly and express a willingness to accept a significant class-year cut.

And, yes, every extra month you're staying in that clerkship is hurting your big-law chances at this point. You probably have an uphill climb anyway, but further delay will make things that much harder for you.

Agree with this assessment. Fairly or not, few firms will see your second year in either clerkship, your small-firm experience, and your rural ADA experience as adding much value.

[JackKlompus]

Well, that's unfortunate, but kind of what I assumed. Thanks for your responses.

[Anonymous User]

Not having any luck with the CoA clerkship hunt. I have applied very broadly for the past year; only two interviews (both dings). I think I'd like to clerk on an appellate court, but seems I'm putting a lot of work in for nothing.

Goal is academia. I'm public interest, and will be clerking non-feeder SDNY (CoA would be my second clerkship if I got it). Somewhere around top 5% CCN + L Rev, strong faculty recs.

My question: Given my goals/credentials, is it worth it to keep trying? Or is the benefit marginal at this point?

[grand inquisitor]

you just keep applying. you'll never have any guarantees and the process sucks but your chance, however outside, drops to a definitive 0% when you stop applying/interviewing. my buddy did like 7 interviews before he got his follow-on COA.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry I realize I wasn't clear. Is it worth it career-wise to keep trying for a second clerkship, given my goals?

[Anonymous User]

(But that advice is helpful anyways, thanks)

[Barrred]

Sorry I realize I wasn't clear. Is it worth it career-wise to keep trying for a second clerkship, given my goals?

The consensus is generally that having goals of getting into academia or appellate work are the only good reasons to do a COA clerkship in addition to a district court clerkship (especially when its in a competitive district where you want to practice).

[A. Nony Mouse]

If your goal is academia, I think COA can help. Are you looking at fellowship programs/VAPs? Do most of them have a COA? It does look like a bunch of the Climenkos do (a bunch also have PhDs), and all but one of the Bigelow fellows. I suspect they also all have equally good other credentials as yours, so yeah, looks like it will help.