Re: Best and worst judges to clerk for
Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:57 pm
I’ve heard Pan is truly personally abusive to clerks in a way that’s very unusual.
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Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 2:57 pmI’ve heard Pan is truly personally abusive to clerks in a way that’s very unusual.
A lot of it is hyperspecific to individual clerks, of which she has only had a few, so that probably explains the hesitation. Reach out to alums if you want more concrete information.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:08 pmCan anybody make this stuff about Pan a bit more concrete? A lot of vague generalities bein thrown around here and it's hard to get a sense for what's actually going on.
From what i understand it's also not really worth it in the end because she doesn't go to bat for her clerks and isn't a feeder. I guess if you really want to clerk on the DC Circuit for some reason... Personally I'd rather clerk for a random COA judge anywhere else, but I guess some people really, really want DC Cir. on their resume.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:29 pmA lot of it is hyperspecific to individual clerks, of which she has only had a few, so that probably explains the hesitation. Reach out to alums if you want more concrete information.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:08 pmCan anybody make this stuff about Pan a bit more concrete? A lot of vague generalities bein thrown around here and it's hard to get a sense for what's actually going on.
From what I know though, it's a lot of verbal and mental abuse. It's also not limited to her chambers - she's not exactly beloved in Prettyman.
If you’re conservative, most of them are fine. Rao can be a bit difficult and the workload is significant, but it’s tolerable. Walker is very chill, Katsas is a great judge. Henderson doesn’t hire ideologically and is very absentee and aloof, but she’s not really abusive in any way and is very efficient with chambers work.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:26 amWhat have you heard about the other judges in the DC Circuit? Which ones should be avoided?
What does “rewrite her work” mean? Do judges not offer suggestions/ask for portions of an opinion to be changed so that they’ll join?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:51 amIf you’re conservative, most of them are fine. Rao can be a bit difficult and the workload is significant, but it’s tolerable. Walker is very chill, Katsas is a great judge. Henderson doesn’t hire ideologically and is very absentee and aloof, but she’s not really abusive in any way and is very efficient with chambers work.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:26 amWhat have you heard about the other judges in the DC Circuit? Which ones should be avoided?
If you’re not conservative, the rest of the court is more mixed. I would recommend Srinivasan and Pillard; while their clerks work hard, Pillard’s especially so, they are both really sharp and also decent to the clerks and supportive career wise. Millett is somewhat similar except that she’s much much more abusive, fosters competition among the clerks, her clerks work truly obscene hours for no reason, and she can sometimes be almost Pan levels of cruel. Pan, as indicated above, should be avoid if you can help it — she simply is as mean, and as disorganized, as everyone else has alluded to. Wilkins is a good judge and nice guy, although I don’t get the sense that his clerks are always on top of the ball on everything and I don’t know much about the academic and intellectual experience. Childs is also very nice but her chambers is actively awful at the work — other chambers constantly have to correct scores of objective errors, rewrite her work etc. It sounds really chaotic over there. Garcia is new but he’s really sharp, approachable, and his clerks seem to love him. As of a few years ago, Rogers and Edwards are both quirky in their own ways (Edwards is more eccentric, Rogers is somewhat more abusive I think) but both are solid clerkships and they pump out really good work efficiently and have generally humane hours. I don’t know if either has gone down hill lately, seems from oral argument in a case I recently had that Rogers’ mind might be starting to go.
Have their clerks offer very significant substantive changes to correct egregious objective errors in complex cases etc. The work product going to panel is just far below anything else on the circuit. Riddled with errors both large and small, lacking in context and nuance etc.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:52 amWhat does “rewrite her work” mean? Do judges not offer suggestions/ask for portions of an opinion to be changed so that they’ll join?Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:51 amIf you’re conservative, most of them are fine. Rao can be a bit difficult and the workload is significant, but it’s tolerable. Walker is very chill, Katsas is a great judge. Henderson doesn’t hire ideologically and is very absentee and aloof, but she’s not really abusive in any way and is very efficient with chambers work.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 12:26 amWhat have you heard about the other judges in the DC Circuit? Which ones should be avoided?
If you’re not conservative, the rest of the court is more mixed. I would recommend Srinivasan and Pillard; while their clerks work hard, Pillard’s especially so, they are both really sharp and also decent to the clerks and supportive career wise. Millett is somewhat similar except that she’s much much more abusive, fosters competition among the clerks, her clerks work truly obscene hours for no reason, and she can sometimes be almost Pan levels of cruel. Pan, as indicated above, should be avoid if you can help it — she simply is as mean, and as disorganized, as everyone else has alluded to. Wilkins is a good judge and nice guy, although I don’t get the sense that his clerks are always on top of the ball on everything and I don’t know much about the academic and intellectual experience. Childs is also very nice but her chambers is actively awful at the work — other chambers constantly have to correct scores of objective errors, rewrite her work etc. It sounds really chaotic over there. Garcia is new but he’s really sharp, approachable, and his clerks seem to love him. As of a few years ago, Rogers and Edwards are both quirky in their own ways (Edwards is more eccentric, Rogers is somewhat more abusive I think) but both are solid clerkships and they pump out really good work efficiently and have generally humane hours. I don’t know if either has gone down hill lately, seems from oral argument in a case I recently had that Rogers’ mind might be starting to go.
Another thread on here had negative comments on Sanchez, but nothing concrete other than firing a clerk.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:50 amAnyone know anything about Sanchez, Mendoza, or H. Thomas (all 9th)?
Both are very smart, very good writers, and reportedly very good bosses. Collins is very cerebral and methodologically orthodox. Lee is a GWB/Kavanaugh type with more pop culture references. I don't think you could go wrong clerking for either one of them.
Heard good things about both. Lee’s writing is a bit annoying, but his clerkship is pretty relaxed from what I’ve heard. Collins’ is not so relaxed because of how often he writes separately, how involved he is in the en banc process, and how slow he is, but apparently people like working for him.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:17 pmBoth are very smart, very good writers, and reportedly very good bosses. Collins is very cerebral and methodologically orthodox. Lee is a GWB/Kavanaugh type with more pop culture references. I don't think you could go wrong clerking for either one of them.
BumpAnonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:00 pmAnyone have the inside scoop on recent appointees to the Fifth or Sixth Circuit? (Douglas, Ramirez, Mathis, Davis, Bloomekatz)
Collins rubbed a lot of judges on the court the wrong way in his first few years for his lack of bedside manner. But I don’t know if that is also the case in his own chambers. My impression of him is that he is very smart, an independent thinker, and generally conservative but a bit idiosyncratic in his views.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:48 amHeard good things about both. Lee’s writing is a bit annoying, but his clerkship is pretty relaxed from what I’ve heard. Collins’ is not so relaxed because of how often he writes separately, how involved he is in the en banc process, and how slow he is, but apparently people like working for him.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Apr 24, 2024 10:17 pmBoth are very smart, very good writers, and reportedly very good bosses. Collins is very cerebral and methodologically orthodox. Lee is a GWB/Kavanaugh type with more pop culture references. I don't think you could go wrong clerking for either one of them.
Just want to jump in and say that H. Thomas has also fired a clerk this yearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:50 amAnyone know anything about Sanchez, Mendoza, or H. Thomas (all 9th)?
Obviously you probably don’t know, but I am very curious what a clerk does to get fired from an appellate clerkship. Unless the answer is that Thomas is a horrendous boss, which I haven’t heard.sirreactions wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 11:08 pmJust want to jump in and say that H. Thomas has also fired a clerk this yearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:50 amAnyone know anything about Sanchez, Mendoza, or H. Thomas (all 9th)?
The cases I know of appellate clerks being fired by good bosses involve so-crazy-it’s-hard-to-believe misconduct that would be identifying. There are some good stories out there though. Note that I don’t know anything about H Thomas one way or another.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:06 amObviously you probably don’t know, but I am very curious what a clerk does to get fired from an appellate clerkship. Unless the answer is that Thomas is a horrendous boss, which I haven’t heard.sirreactions wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 11:08 pmJust want to jump in and say that H. Thomas has also fired a clerk this yearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:50 amAnyone know anything about Sanchez, Mendoza, or H. Thomas (all 9th)?
Definitely don't know the specifics firsthand and want to respect the former clerk's privacy, but it apparently derived from a miscommunication and missed deadline on some deliverable. What I know for sure is that it happened less than two months into the job and that the former clerk immediately moved onto a prestigious appellate litigation firm, so I very much doubt it's "so-crazy-it’s-hard-to-believe misconduct."Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:06 amObviously you probably don’t know, but I am very curious what a clerk does to get fired from an appellate clerkship. Unless the answer is that Thomas is a horrendous boss, which I haven’t heard.sirreactions wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 11:08 pmJust want to jump in and say that H. Thomas has also fired a clerk this yearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:50 amAnyone know anything about Sanchez, Mendoza, or H. Thomas (all 9th)?
The truth is that some people are not cut out for clerkships, especially K-JDs who have never had a full-time job before. Clerkships, especially at the district court level, are sink or swim environments. Some folks, at least without some more experience, can't handle that level of responsibility or independence. So you have very smart and usually capable people who just crumple at the job. And having a bad clerk in chambers hijacks the entire chambers' ability to function and causes resentment among clerks and between boss and employee. So sometimes a judge doesn't really have a choice but to find someone new.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:11 amThe cases I know of appellate clerks being fired by good bosses involve so-crazy-it’s-hard-to-believe misconduct that would be identifying. There are some good stories out there though. Note that I don’t know anything about H Thomas one way or another.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:06 amObviously you probably don’t know, but I am very curious what a clerk does to get fired from an appellate clerkship. Unless the answer is that Thomas is a horrendous boss, which I haven’t heard.sirreactions wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 11:08 pmJust want to jump in and say that H. Thomas has also fired a clerk this yearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:50 amAnyone know anything about Sanchez, Mendoza, or H. Thomas (all 9th)?
This times a million. If there are no other red flags, I would not hold a judge firing a clerk against the judge because there are indeed instances where the judge has no other options. For example, I know of one judge who reluctantly fired a clerk who had stopped coming into work regularly because he was spending all night in a casino feeding a gambling addiction. That wasn't the judge's fault, and there are less dramatic examples of clerks just not being workable employees.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 4:42 pmThe truth is that some people are not cut out for clerkships, especially K-JDs who have never had a full-time job before. Clerkships, especially at the district court level, are sink or swim environments. Some folks, at least without some more experience, can't handle that level of responsibility or independence. So you have very smart and usually capable people who just crumple at the job. And having a bad clerk in chambers hijacks the entire chambers' ability to function and causes resentment among clerks and between boss and employee. So sometimes a judge doesn't really have a choice but to find someone new.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:11 amThe cases I know of appellate clerks being fired by good bosses involve so-crazy-it’s-hard-to-believe misconduct that would be identifying. There are some good stories out there though. Note that I don’t know anything about H Thomas one way or another.Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 10:06 amObviously you probably don’t know, but I am very curious what a clerk does to get fired from an appellate clerkship. Unless the answer is that Thomas is a horrendous boss, which I haven’t heard.sirreactions wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 11:08 pmJust want to jump in and say that H. Thomas has also fired a clerk this yearAnonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:50 amAnyone know anything about Sanchez, Mendoza, or H. Thomas (all 9th)?