Cheaters. What would you do?

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Dr Disrespect

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Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby Dr Disrespect » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:41 pm

Students in my section collaborated on their memos assignments. Pretty sure one of them hired an editor, too. I'm typically not the competitive type, but in a T15 can I afford not mentioning this to someone? I'm pretty irked. Just looking to feel everyone's temperature on this. Thanks.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby QContinuum » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:29 pm

Do you know for a fact that the editor was hired? How far did the "collaboration" go? Was it just a group of folks talking/kvetching about the assignment in general, or was it actually "I'll write two variants of section 1, you write two variants of section 2, we'll mix and match and voila!" or "I'll edit your draft if you edit mine"? If the former, did your professor expressly ban all discussion of the assignment?

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby BrainsyK » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:54 pm

If the course isn't P/F, I'd report any material violations of any class/school honor code--even if it's minor. Screwing around with actual grades affects others.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby nixy » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:56 pm

Is there an honor code that requires you to report cheating?

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby Dr Disrespect » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:02 pm

nixy wrote:Is there an honor code that requires you to report cheating?


There's no affirmative duty to report. The honor code guidelines provide, in relevant part, "[if student] believes a significant problem that directly implicates the school’s program of legal education and its compliance with the ABA standards has the right to file a complaint regarding that problem."

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby Dr Disrespect » Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:09 pm

QContinuum wrote:Do you know for a fact that the editor was hired? How far did the "collaboration" go? Was it just a group of folks talking/kvetching about the assignment in general, or was it actually "I'll write two variants of section 1, you write two variants of section 2, we'll mix and match and voila!" or "I'll edit your draft if you edit mine"? If the former, did your professor expressly ban all discussion of the assignment?


I know for a fact that one of the student's said she submitted her memo to her "tutor for editing." My school (a) doesn't provide tutors, and (b) explicitly prohibits outside collaboration with third-parties. As far the students' collaborating went, I didn't oversee them bartering for paragraphs anything, but they were reading over each other's printouts. Prof. instructed all students to "work individually," which could be interpreted in more than one way, I suppose.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby LSATWiz.com » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:30 pm

Dr Disrespect wrote:
QContinuum wrote:Do you know for a fact that the editor was hired? How far did the "collaboration" go? Was it just a group of folks talking/kvetching about the assignment in general, or was it actually "I'll write two variants of section 1, you write two variants of section 2, we'll mix and match and voila!" or "I'll edit your draft if you edit mine"? If the former, did your professor expressly ban all discussion of the assignment?


I know for a fact that one of the student's said she submitted her memo to her "tutor for editing." My school (a) doesn't provide tutors, and (b) explicitly prohibits outside collaboration with third-parties. As far the students' collaborating went, I didn't oversee them bartering for paragraphs anything, but they were reading over each other's printouts. Prof. instructed all students to "work individually," which could be interpreted in more than one way, I suppose.

I'm of the school of thought that if there's no duty to report, I wouldn't do so unless I was reasonably certain. The fact it's curved vs. not curved wouldn't really affect my analysis, but I can see why it would affect someone else's.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:59 pm

Report them. It's an ethical violation and a dick move.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby Npret » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:07 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Report them. It's an ethical violation and a dick move.


Yeah. I’m not sure why you’re hesitant OP.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby acr » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:05 am

Don't report. Don't be a rat.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:23 am

acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby acr » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:58 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:09 am

acr wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.


I must have skipped the chapter where cheating was encouraged and "no snitching" was one of the Ten Commandments. My bad.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby nixy » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 am

acr wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.

Lawyer ethics, though.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby anonymous5491 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:11 pm

I certainly wouldn’t put myself in a position where my classmates knew I had accused them of an Ethics Violation. It’s just not fun to be known as a Young Money Cash Money Snitch.

If you must report, slide an anonymous letter under the Prof’s door. Make sure the Prof does not recognize your writing style and don’t use any of that special, 50% linen-50% papyrus paper that you used for OCIs. Be discreet.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby Npret » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:16 pm

acr wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.


Human decency is not hiring an editor to do your work and claiming you worked alone.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby Npret » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:17 pm

anonymous5491 wrote:I certainly wouldn’t put myself in a position where my classmates knew I had accused them of an Ethics Violation. It’s just not fun to be known as a Young Money Cash Money Snitch.

If you must report, slide an anonymous letter under the Prof’s door. Make sure the Prof does not recognize your writing style and don’t use any of that special, 50% linen-50% papyrus paper that you used for OCIs. Be discreet.


They won’t know who reported them. I’m surprised that a forum of lawyers and law students condone not reporting cheating. Maybe that’s how all these unethical attorneys slide by for years.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby acr » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:25 pm

Npret wrote:
acr wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.


Human decency is not hiring an editor to do your work and claiming you worked alone.


Yeah, that says something about their decency, not yours. It's not your problem. Maybe you're just the kind of person who likes to tattle tale on other people in a professional program like it's elementary school.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby Npret » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:27 pm

acr wrote:
Npret wrote:
acr wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.


Human decency is not hiring an editor to do your work and claiming you worked alone.


Yeah, that says something about their decency, not yours. It's not your problem. Maybe you're just the kind of person who likes to tattle on other people in a professional program like it's elementary school.

You do understand the code of ethics I assume?
I disagree completely with your take on this but then I’ve never cheated in any class so I cant relate to the need to put down someone for reporting an honor code violation.
Professional school has higher standards of conduct required than kindergarten. Maybe you don’t see that.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby acr » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:40 pm

Npret wrote:
acr wrote:
Npret wrote:
acr wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.


Human decency is not hiring an editor to do your work and claiming you worked alone.


Yeah, that says something about their decency, not yours. It's not your problem. Maybe you're just the kind of person who likes to tattle on other people in a professional program like it's elementary school.

You do understand the code of ethics I assume?
I disagree completely with your take on this but then I’ve never cheated in any class so I cant relate to the need to put down someone for reporting an honor code violation.
Professional school has higher standards of conduct required than kindergarten. Maybe you don’t see that.


You'll encounter "cheating" throughout your entire life, especially in professional settings. The senior associate in the office next to you will work 30 minutes for a client and bill 1 hour. Someone will exaggerate an experience on their resume. Etc etc. Are you really going to report every little "unethical" thing you see? It's a memo for a legal writing class, not a dangerous conspiracy. You're better off ignoring stuff.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:00 pm

acr wrote:The senior associate in the office next to you will work 30 minutes for a client and bill 1 hour.


I don't know how I'd ever be in a position to see another attorney's billing numbers, but that's called fraud. If a partner or client found out, the associate would be fired in a heartbeat.

acr wrote:Someone will exaggerate an experience on their resume.


If by "exaggerate," you mean "make up," then again, that's called fraud. These areas are not as gray as you appear to think they are.

acr wrote:You're better off ignoring stuff.


I think this philosophy is broadly applicable. For example, if I find out someone's embezzling company money, why bother getting involved, right? After all, it's not a "dangerous conspiracy." It's just some light criminal activity.

This isn't "tattling," and this isn't someone stealing your chalk at recess. Attorneys are held to a high standard because of the immense amount of trust people have to place in them. If you're not willing to hold yourself and your peers to that standard, then don't practice law.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby hmmmbop » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:11 pm

I would report anonymously and put the burden on the administration to enforce. Even if all they do is send out an e-mail saying "due to information received relating to the memo, we want to reiterate the honor code prohibits...", that e-mail may make any cheaters a little uncomfortable (which I would take satisfaction from).

I disagree with people saying "don't be a rat" and that tattle-telling only belongs in elementary school. Your classmates are being dishonest, and if the class is graded on a curve, they're being dishonest at your expense.

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby nixy » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:45 pm

acr wrote:
Npret wrote:
acr wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
acr wrote:Don't report. Don't be a rat.


See generally Professional Ethics: The Crips and Bloods Method.


More like General Principles of Human Decency.


Human decency is not hiring an editor to do your work and claiming you worked alone.


Yeah, that says something about their decency, not yours. It's not your problem. Maybe you're just the kind of person who likes to tattle tale on other people in a professional program like it's elementary school.

This is a weird take from a lawyer. I guess your law school didn’t have an honor code requiring you to report?

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby ClubberLang » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:00 pm

Forget about it and move on with life. If you snitch, nothing is going to happen to the "cheaters," and everyone will think that you suck.

nixy

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Re: Cheaters. What would you do?

Postby nixy » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:46 pm

ClubberLang wrote:Forget about it and move on with life. If you snitch, nothing is going to happen to the "cheaters," and everyone will think that you suck.

Did no one else go to a school with an honor code? I don’t think it’s a given nothing will happen to them, or that everyone will know who reported.



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