Drop out or na?

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crazywafflez

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Drop out or na?

Postby crazywafflez » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:57 pm

Hey y'all,
Love the forum and don't usually post but was looking for some more advice. I go to a school that flutters between T1 and top of T2. After this first semester I'm a bit below median. I'm considering dropping out though. I am about 10k in debt at the moment. If I stick it out i'll be about 60-70k in debt (including interest) after graduating. I have some connections to where I want to practice but my school is not in the same state as where I want to go (but it is the same geographic region). The reason, besides bad grades, I'm considering dropping out is because the content of law, I find, is really boring... The only classes I remotely enjoyed were Torts and Crim and it wasn't like I was enthralled by them either. I had two internships this last semester. I enjoyed the one with the DA and didn't mind the one I did with a public interest group. I'm really going into law because I want to help people and felt law was a good avenue to do so. I also have dreams of becoming a judge, small state politician, or a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay). So being an attorney is not the main aim of my life and not sure how much I would actually enjoy it. So what would y'all do? Should I drop out? Stay and redouble my efforts next semester? Thanks all for reading and I appreciate the time and help.

acr

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby acr » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:30 am

You're a 1L? Why did you have internships last semester in addition to 1L classes? During 1L, your classes should really be your only focus. I would recommend dropping the internships, finishing this next semester (it's only 4 months), try your best to raise your grades, and re-evaluate at at the end of the semester. There's really no harm in finishing the first year when you have a more complete picture. And maybe try to get a summer internship in an area of law you think you might be interested in. If you hate it, and your grades haven't improved, then take the idea of dropping out more seriously.

cavalier1138

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:16 am

I'm confused about the internship situation, too. But this part is more concerning for me:

crazywafflez wrote:I'm really going into law because I want to help people and felt law was a good avenue to do so. I also have dreams of becoming a judge, small state politician, or a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay). So being an attorney is not the main aim of my life and not sure how much I would actually enjoy it.


Law school is for people who want to be lawyers. Being a judge is just being a lawyer who gets to tell other lawyers what the law is with more authority, and you need experience as a lawyer before becoming one. State politicians don't need JDs. Undergrad professors definitely don't need JDs and do need doctorates.

So based on your description of your career goals, I would have told you to not bother with law school in the first place. I don't see any reason to keep spending time and money on a career path you aren't interested in.

nixy

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby nixy » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:38 am

crazywafflez wrote:Hey y'all,
a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay).

This is really not how it works; getting a JD isn’t going to get you a job as a professor at either one of these kinds of schools.

BasilHallward

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby BasilHallward » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:19 pm

crazywafflez wrote:Hey y'all,
Love the forum and don't usually post but was looking for some more advice. I go to a school that flutters between T1 and top of T2. After this first semester I'm a bit below median. I'm considering dropping out though. I am about 10k in debt at the moment. If I stick it out i'll be about 60-70k in debt (including interest) after graduating. I have some connections to where I want to practice but my school is not in the same state as where I want to go (but it is the same geographic region). The reason, besides bad grades, I'm considering dropping out is because the content of law, I find, is really boring... The only classes I remotely enjoyed were Torts and Crim and it wasn't like I was enthralled by them either. I had two internships this last semester. I enjoyed the one with the DA and didn't mind the one I did with a public interest group. I'm really going into law because I want to help people and felt law was a good avenue to do so. I also have dreams of becoming a judge, small state politician, or a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay). So being an attorney is not the main aim of my life and not sure how much I would actually enjoy it. So what would y'all do? Should I drop out? Stay and redouble my efforts next semester? Thanks all for reading and I appreciate the time and help.


How is this possible? The ABA mandates that 1Ls not work their first semester of law school. Maybe you fell through the cracks and drove an Uber during 1L, but I don't see how a DA's office can do this. Are you sure that you're in law school and only a 1L??

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby LSATWiz.com » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:34 pm

BasilHallward wrote:
crazywafflez wrote:Hey y'all,
Love the forum and don't usually post but was looking for some more advice. I go to a school that flutters between T1 and top of T2. After this first semester I'm a bit below median. I'm considering dropping out though. I am about 10k in debt at the moment. If I stick it out i'll be about 60-70k in debt (including interest) after graduating. I have some connections to where I want to practice but my school is not in the same state as where I want to go (but it is the same geographic region). The reason, besides bad grades, I'm considering dropping out is because the content of law, I find, is really boring... The only classes I remotely enjoyed were Torts and Crim and it wasn't like I was enthralled by them either. I had two internships this last semester. I enjoyed the one with the DA and didn't mind the one I did with a public interest group. I'm really going into law because I want to help people and felt law was a good avenue to do so. I also have dreams of becoming a judge, small state politician, or a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay). So being an attorney is not the main aim of my life and not sure how much I would actually enjoy it. So what would y'all do? Should I drop out? Stay and redouble my efforts next semester? Thanks all for reading and I appreciate the time and help.


How is this possible? The ABA mandates that 1Ls not work their first semester of law school. Maybe you fell through the cracks and drove an Uber during 1L, but I don't see how a DA's office can do this. Are you sure that you're in law school and only a 1L??

This isn't really enforced in practice. The whole point is that law school is supposed to be too strenuous to work during. If you do well, nobody is out to get you because you work a bit to earn more money. C&F in my state didn't even check or follow up on my resume.

In OP's situation, I'd drop out. Law school and practice are different, but in most situations law school is at least equally interesting.

crazywafflez

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby crazywafflez » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:43 pm

Thanks everyone for the responses. I am indeed a 1L. My school actually allowed me to, it was just a drop down menu thing on our website that I could just add... I'm not sure if I'm allowed but maybe they just don't check it but I even talked to one of my professors about it and she was pretty encouraging. I'd really only be interested in crim law and using it to teach crim law clinic or teach poli sci at the liberal arts school (I have an MA and they have a couple JDs that are adjuncts there and one tenured one for that department). Or becoming like an ADA and using that to go further as a judge or into politics. Sorry this is pretty random and thanks again for all the help. I'm leaning towards dropping out but waiting for one more grade to come out.

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby BasilHallward » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:44 pm

UBETutoring wrote:
BasilHallward wrote:
crazywafflez wrote:Hey y'all,
Love the forum and don't usually post but was looking for some more advice. I go to a school that flutters between T1 and top of T2. After this first semester I'm a bit below median. I'm considering dropping out though. I am about 10k in debt at the moment. If I stick it out i'll be about 60-70k in debt (including interest) after graduating. I have some connections to where I want to practice but my school is not in the same state as where I want to go (but it is the same geographic region). The reason, besides bad grades, I'm considering dropping out is because the content of law, I find, is really boring... The only classes I remotely enjoyed were Torts and Crim and it wasn't like I was enthralled by them either. I had two internships this last semester. I enjoyed the one with the DA and didn't mind the one I did with a public interest group. I'm really going into law because I want to help people and felt law was a good avenue to do so. I also have dreams of becoming a judge, small state politician, or a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay). So being an attorney is not the main aim of my life and not sure how much I would actually enjoy it. So what would y'all do? Should I drop out? Stay and redouble my efforts next semester? Thanks all for reading and I appreciate the time and help.


How is this possible? The ABA mandates that 1Ls not work their first semester of law school. Maybe you fell through the cracks and drove an Uber during 1L, but I don't see how a DA's office can do this. Are you sure that you're in law school and only a 1L??

This isn't really enforced in practice. The whole point is that law school is supposed to be too strenuous to work during. If you do well, nobody is out to get you because you work a bit to earn more money. C&F in my state didn't even check or follow up on my resume.

In OP's situation, I'd drop out. Law school and practice are different, but in most situations law school is at least equally interesting.


Sure. C&F is one thing. But one is not earning $$ as a 1L at the DA's office. I just find it extremely odd that a DA would want a 1st semester 1L as an intern who barely knows how to login into WestLaw.

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby ken01 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:00 pm

LSATWiz.com wrote:
BasilHallward wrote:
crazywafflez wrote:Hey y'all,
Love the forum and don't usually post but was looking for some more advice. I go to a school that flutters between T1 and top of T2. After this first semester I'm a bit below median. I'm considering dropping out though. I am about 10k in debt at the moment. If I stick it out i'll be about 60-70k in debt (including interest) after graduating. I have some connections to where I want to practice but my school is not in the same state as where I want to go (but it is the same geographic region). The reason, besides bad grades, I'm considering dropping out is because the content of law, I find, is really boring... The only classes I remotely enjoyed were Torts and Crim and it wasn't like I was enthralled by them either. I had two internships this last semester. I enjoyed the one with the DA and didn't mind the one I did with a public interest group. I'm really going into law because I want to help people and felt law was a good avenue to do so. I also have dreams of becoming a judge, small state politician, or a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay). So being an attorney is not the main aim of my life and not sure how much I would actually enjoy it. So what would y'all do? Should I drop out? Stay and redouble my efforts next semester? Thanks all for reading and I appreciate the time and help.


How is this possible? The ABA mandates that 1Ls not work their first semester of law school. Maybe you fell through the cracks and drove an Uber during 1L, but I don't see how a DA's office can do this. Are you sure that you're in law school and only a 1L??

This isn't really enforced in practice. The whole point is that law school is supposed to be too strenuous to work during. If you do well, nobody is out to get you because you work a bit to earn more money. C&F in my state didn't even check or follow up on my resume.

In OP's situation, I'd drop out. Law school and practice are different, but in most situations law school is at least equally interesting.


The ABA rule was eliminated, actually. I believe it remains as a suggestion and schools may adopt their own rules still.

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby albanach » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:40 pm

ken01 wrote:
The ABA rule was eliminated, actually. I believe it remains as a suggestion and schools may adopt their own rules still.


I think a lot of lower ranked schools are focusing heavily on getting their students out into the community to get practical experience and to network, presumably with the goal of improving job prospects at graduation. I'm not sure that's a bad thing - it's no secret here that a traditional legal education doesn't do a good job of training someone to be a lawyer.

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby acr » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:30 am

albanach wrote:
ken01 wrote:
The ABA rule was eliminated, actually. I believe it remains as a suggestion and schools may adopt their own rules still.


I think a lot of lower ranked schools are focusing heavily on getting their students out into the community to get practical experience and to network, presumably with the goal of improving job prospects at graduation. I'm not sure that's a bad thing - it's no secret here that a traditional legal education doesn't do a good job of training someone to be a lawyer.


Yes but during 1L? There are literally 2 pointless years of law school, aka 2L and 3L, where students can get "out into the community to get practical experience" as much as they want. And there are also 2 full summers.

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby albanach » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:39 am

acr wrote:Yes but during 1L? There are literally 2 pointless years of law school, aka 2L and 3L, where students can get "out into the community to get practical experience" as much as they want. And there are also 2 full summers.


If it could improve employment outcomes, absolutely.

Think about it like this - schools in the lower T1 and T2 know they have students who are smart enough to become lawyers. But most of them aren't going to join a big or even medium sized law firm on account of their school. If these folk can get facetime at firms and real experience in-house at those firms clients, that might open doors where the school/grade combination would otherwise see them locked out.

And if you can boost employment outcomes, you can also boost your ranking. And this is something lower ranked schools might feel they have more control over than LSAT/GPA of the entering class. For that reason, I expect that they would prefer to see their students have contact with five or six different potential employers by the time they graduate as opposed to two during their summers.

acr

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby acr » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:05 am

albanach wrote:
acr wrote:Yes but during 1L? There are literally 2 pointless years of law school, aka 2L and 3L, where students can get "out into the community to get practical experience" as much as they want. And there are also 2 full summers.


If it could improve employment outcomes, absolutely.

Think about it like this - schools in the lower T1 and T2 know they have students who are smart enough to become lawyers. But most of them aren't going to join a big or even medium sized law firm on account of their school. If these folk can get facetime at firms and real experience in-house at those firms clients, that might open doors where the school/grade combination would otherwise see them locked out.

And if you can boost employment outcomes, you can also boost your ranking. And this is something lower ranked schools might feel they have more control over than LSAT/GPA of the entering class. For that reason, I expect that they would prefer to see their students have contact with five or six different potential employers by the time they graduate as opposed to two during their summers.


Lol nice, conveniently ignoring 2L/3L externships/clinics/etc.

Might want to check your math, 1L summer + 2L summer + 2L Fall + 2L Spring + 3L Fall + 3L Spring = 6 employers.

Even more if you split summers.

My point is that there is more than enough time to get real contact with employers throughout the 3 years of law school without needing to resort to 1L.

albanach

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby albanach » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:43 pm

acr wrote:My point is that there is more than enough time to get real contact with employers throughout the 3 years of law school without needing to resort to 1L.


You seriously believe that 1L torts at a T2 school is more valuable in securing future employment than an externship?

acr

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby acr » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:05 am

albanach wrote:
acr wrote:My point is that there is more than enough time to get real contact with employers throughout the 3 years of law school without needing to resort to 1L.


You seriously believe that 1L torts at a T2 school is more valuable in securing future employment than an externship?


Go on keep ignoring the numerous opportunities for externships during 2L, 3L, and the summers. Not sure why you don't want to acknowledge it.

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby clshopeful » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:57 pm

BasilHallward wrote:
crazywafflez wrote:Hey y'all,
Love the forum and don't usually post but was looking for some more advice. I go to a school that flutters between T1 and top of T2. After this first semester I'm a bit below median. I'm considering dropping out though. I am about 10k in debt at the moment. If I stick it out i'll be about 60-70k in debt (including interest) after graduating. I have some connections to where I want to practice but my school is not in the same state as where I want to go (but it is the same geographic region). The reason, besides bad grades, I'm considering dropping out is because the content of law, I find, is really boring... The only classes I remotely enjoyed were Torts and Crim and it wasn't like I was enthralled by them either. I had two internships this last semester. I enjoyed the one with the DA and didn't mind the one I did with a public interest group. I'm really going into law because I want to help people and felt law was a good avenue to do so. I also have dreams of becoming a judge, small state politician, or a professor at a low caliber liberal arts or state school in my neck of the woods in the south (where I want to stay). So being an attorney is not the main aim of my life and not sure how much I would actually enjoy it. So what would y'all do? Should I drop out? Stay and redouble my efforts next semester? Thanks all for reading and I appreciate the time and help.


How is this possible? The ABA mandates that 1Ls not work their first semester of law school. Maybe you fell through the cracks and drove an Uber during 1L, but I don't see how a DA's office can do this. Are you sure that you're in law school and only a 1L??


I believe the ABA "no work during 1L" rule was repealed this or last year.

albanach

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Re: Drop out or na?

Postby albanach » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:31 am

acr wrote:
Go on keep ignoring the numerous opportunities for externships during 2L, 3L, and the summers. Not sure why you don't want to acknowledge it.


I'm not ignoring it. I'm simply saying n+1 > n. Why do you see this as a problem for the schools I described or their law students? I see no argument from you other than "the status quo in American legal education is working fine."



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