Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

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CJLaw09
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby CJLaw09 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:22 pm

I had my structured interview yesterday and it went very well. Like others have mentioned on here, they advise you to not discuss the format, the questions, or your answers on any public forums to protect the integrity of the scoring. I can say that there is no way to prepare for the questions. They aren't about knowledge (either in the law or the military), they are designed to find out what type of person you are and what kind of officer you will be. So, don't stress out about "studying".

Other posters were absolutely spot on about how the interviewers don't make facial expression, comments, or feedback during your answers. They are completely stone-faced and spent the whole time jotting notes. The only time they looked up was to ask another question.

However, in our conversation before and after the questions, I gleaned much information about first tour and duty stations from the LT and CMDR who interviewed me. They were very pleasant and gracious to answer as many questions as I wanted, even though I was the last of many interviews on the day. Also, the LT who escorted me to and from the interview and kept me company while I waited, gave me much insight into the first tour since he was still serving in it.

Most interestingly, he told me the first tour is changing with this class. In the past, during a JAG's first two years, he/she would spend 6 months in prosecution, 6 months in trial defense, 6 months in legal assistance, and 6 months on staff. The problem with this was that a new JAG can not obtain all their signatures within enough time to actually represent clients and do actual casework. He said he was currently in his third phase of first tour and still hadn't done any substantive work in court yet and probably wouldn't until his 2nd tour (hopefully). On that day, he was in charge of "courtroom security", as there was a sexual assault trial in progress.

What will be happening starting with this class is that you will be placed in either prosecution or defense only (not both) and spend 12 months there, so you'll get practical experience in court representing clients (or the government) after you obtain all your signatures, which he said takes 4-5 months.

fuzz
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby fuzz » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:14 pm

CJLaw09 wrote:Most interestingly, he told me the first tour is changing with this class. In the past, during a JAG's first two years, he/she would spend 6 months in prosecution, 6 months in trial defense, 6 months in legal assistance, and 6 months on staff. The problem with this was that a new JAG can not obtain all their signatures within enough time to actually represent clients and do actual casework. He said he was currently in his third phase of first tour and still hadn't done any substantive work in court yet and probably wouldn't until his 2nd tour (hopefully). On that day, he was in charge of "courtroom security", as there was a sexual assault trial in progress.

What will be happening starting with this class is that you will be placed in either prosecution or defense only (not both) and spend 12 months there, so you'll get practical experience in court representing clients (or the government) after you obtain all your signatures, which he said takes 4-5 months.


Just to add to this, the other year in the first tour will be split 6 months in Legal Assistance and 6 months in Command Services.

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usn26
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby usn26 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:37 pm

Sounds like a very positive development.

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Dawg57
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Dawg57 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:11 pm

Sounds like a positive change indeed. Long time lurker, first time poster, have literally read every post in this thread. Such amazing info. Will be applying for my first time to this Spring Board. Have app in and SI is scheduled for next week. Thanks to everyone and the long time posters for sure for all the info. Hope very much to one day have the honor of serving next to some of you somewhere.

64v46u
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby 64v46u » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:20 pm

Hey guys. First time poster here as well. Been reading this for some time and have been greatful to have it as a resource. I’m a DA applicant as well for the Spring 2018. Keep my fingers crossed and wish everyone out there the best of luck!

CJLaw09
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby CJLaw09 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:37 pm

So, after waiting almost three months for my personnel file from St. Louis, I come to find that the PA Army National Guard does NOT do FITREPS or yearly evaluations for soldiers beneath the rank of E-5. I was forced to download my personnel qualification record, advancement listing for E-4, and retirement points summary, since those were the only documents in my file remotely having anything to do with my performance.

Did any other prior service run into this issue?

I hope the Board realizes this and doesn't ding me for an incomplete application.

Elle in Combat Boots
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Elle in Combat Boots » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:02 pm

CJLaw09 wrote:So, after waiting almost three months for my personnel file from St. Louis, I come to find that the PA Army National Guard does NOT do FITREPS or yearly evaluations for soldiers beneath the rank of E-5. I was forced to download my personnel qualification record, advancement listing for E-4, and retirement points summary, since those were the only documents in my file remotely having anything to do with my performance.

Did any other prior service run into this issue?

I hope the Board realizes this and doesn't ding me for an incomplete application.


It's not uncommon. Make sure you mention it in the remarks section of your application so that the board understands the lack of fitreps.

CJLaw09
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby CJLaw09 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:43 pm

Well, my packet was officially completed today. application has been done awhile, but just recently submitted my last LOR, photo, and prior service records (along with an email to the board explaining the PS records). I guess all there is left to do is wait ... for three months.

At least I have stuff to keep me busy. I just plead out five clients last week and three more scheduled over the next few weeks, had a mentally ill client successfully declared insane and his charges dismissed, and have a jury trial scheduled for sometime in the next few days. Another criminal term will then start at the beginning of March.

Back to the grind.

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Dawg57
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Dawg57 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:31 am

Mine is completed and submitted as well, after finally getting my SI done. While this forum had me very prepared for it, I dont think I ever would have been fully prepared. That was as awkward as some say. But I get the standardized process; and I think it went well - *shrug*.

Now for what is, hopefully, an introduction to my long career in the military... my first "hurry up and wait" experience. there are 70 days and 1680 hours in 10 weeks... in case anyone is counting. lol.

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deadthrone7
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby deadthrone7 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:48 am

Submitted my 4th package today. Good luck, everybody.

CJLaw09
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby CJLaw09 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:47 am

deadthrone7 wrote:Submitted my 4th package today. Good luck, everybody.


I saw earlier in the thread you are prior enlisted, too. With it being your 4th application, I assume you are a DA applicant? What type of litigation experience do you have?

CJLaw09
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby CJLaw09 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:53 am

Dawg57 wrote:Mine is completed and submitted as well, after finally getting my SI done. While this forum had me very prepared for it, I dont think I ever would have been fully prepared. That was as awkward as some say. But I get the standardized process; and I think it went well - *shrug*.

Now for what is, hopefully, an introduction to my long career in the military... my first "hurry up and wait" experience. there are 70 days and 1680 hours in 10 weeks... in case anyone is counting. lol.


I agree with it being awkward. But I wonder HOW they grade it because I thought the fact patterns were pretty straight forward, if everyone has the same answers (with little nuances) do they grade on delivery, confidence, appearance, but just make it seem they’re not paying attention to you?

ak7ja
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby ak7ja » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:38 pm

Hey all, first time poster. 3L here, I was accepted into the SP last year and have already commissioned. Wondering if any other 3Ls that have already commissioned have heard anything regarding geographic preferences? I don't remember when they said they would ask us to submit our preferences and hoping I didn't miss anything.

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deadthrone7
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby deadthrone7 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:15 pm

CJLaw09 wrote:
deadthrone7 wrote:Submitted my 4th package today. Good luck, everybody.


I saw earlier in the thread you are prior enlisted, too. With it being your 4th application, I assume you are a DA applicant? What type of litigation experience do you have?



I am a SP applicant. Started applying fall of 2L year, graduate in May. Had a pretty mediocre GPA that’s been steadily rising at a T2. Worked in a couple prosecutors offices in two fairly large jurisdictions and have some decent trial experience for a 3L - far more than most my peers at least.

Hoping that carries me through on my last shot here as a student.

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Dawg57
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Dawg57 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:05 am

CJLaw09 wrote:
Dawg57 wrote:Mine is completed and submitted as well, after finally getting my SI done. While this forum had me very prepared for it, I dont think I ever would have been fully prepared. That was as awkward as some say. But I get the standardized process; and I think it went well - *shrug*.

Now for what is, hopefully, an introduction to my long career in the military... my first "hurry up and wait" experience. there are 70 days and 1680 hours in 10 weeks... in case anyone is counting. lol.


I agree with it being awkward. But I wonder HOW they grade it because I thought the fact patterns were pretty straight forward, if everyone has the same answers (with little nuances) do they grade on delivery, confidence, appearance, but just make it seem they’re not paying attention to you?


I speak only from research and not from any real knowledge gained during the interview, in an effort not to disclose anything I shouldn’t. But I imagine each question averages ten potential points. They prob aren’t each ten points exactly but I bet they all are about that range, with points allocated that are gimmes for covering the full facts and responding thoroughly as well as not saying anything insane. I would guess the first 3 of 10 are almost automatic if you know what you are doing. the next 3-4 are prob attainable for those that are prepared, thoughtful, well spoken and able to articulate their responses better than average. And I think the last 3ish points are where the good candidates are seperated from the great, almost automatic recommendations b/c for whatever reason they just have it figured out, know exactly what to say with the right brevity, don’t ramble, don’t cut too short and really tie up their answer with a bow. An incredibly hard feat given the circumstances, but surely done by a select few each board.

Those like FedAtty here and others on Other boards have essentially pieced together that of the 60 points available a 40 isn’t incredibly hard to get, but takes work, and anything over a 50 is awfully awfully rare. So while there is some separation of the crowd it is still likely (in awful law school irony) centered in a bell curve around the 38-44 point range for applicants’ interview scores.

obviously I didn’t pull back the veil on the process for you, but those are my deductions.

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usn26
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby usn26 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:52 pm

Dawg57 wrote: And I think the last 3ish points are where the good candidates are seperated from the great, almost automatic recommendations b/c for whatever reason they just have it figured out, know exactly what to say with the right brevity, don’t ramble, don’t cut too short and really tie up their answer with a bow.


Interesting. I was told (by a Navy JAG, but idk if he had inside knowledge) that it was pure point tabulation, so just speaking long enough to hit every point they wanted hit was the path to success, and that brevity risked missing those points.

fuzz
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby fuzz » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:40 pm

usn26 wrote:
Dawg57 wrote: And I think the last 3ish points are where the good candidates are seperated from the great, almost automatic recommendations b/c for whatever reason they just have it figured out, know exactly what to say with the right brevity, don’t ramble, don’t cut too short and really tie up their answer with a bow.


Interesting. I was told (by a Navy JAG, but idk if he had inside knowledge) that it was pure point tabulation, so just speaking long enough to hit every point they wanted hit was the path to success, and that brevity risked missing those points.


I was similarly told by a Navy JAG that it was more of a box-checking situation.

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zarzamora
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby zarzamora » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:23 pm

For those of y'all who have gone through the whole process already, what's the commissioning ceremony like? I got professionally recommended through SP and am working on MEPS/Paperwork now. I'm not prior service so this is all pretty new to me. Will I need to get a uniform first? Where can the ceremony happen, who can come, who can actually give the oath, etc.

anonnyyymous
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby anonnyyymous » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:02 pm

What are the consequences of reneging on a summer unpaid internship? Blacklisted from the branch?

Elle in Combat Boots
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Elle in Combat Boots » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:32 pm

zarzamora wrote:For those of y'all who have gone through the whole process already, what's the commissioning ceremony like? I got professionally recommended through SP and am working on MEPS/Paperwork now. I'm not prior service so this is all pretty new to me. Will I need to get a uniform first? Where can the ceremony happen, who can come, who can actually give the oath, etc.


It can be whatever you want it to be. Some did nothing more than take their oath at the recruiter's office by themselves. Others, like me, held parties to celebrate and invited close friends, family, and professors (in particular those that wrote my letters of recommendation or who were prior JAGs themselves and understood the importance of commissioning). I held mine on my law school campus with about 15 people in attendance, but I've known others who did it at the JAG office where they interned with their prior intern sponsor giving the oath, the Naval Academy (that's where I took my oath for LTJG right before NJS), and even on the beach.

Do NOT buy uniforms for the ceremony. Everyone I know wore a suit/business attire (even if done last minute at the local recruiting office).

The oath must be given by an officer. If you know an officer already, they can read you the oath. It makes it more personal/special, especially if it's a family member or friend.

After providing the oath as an officer and seeing what some folks will do to commemorate the occasion, I say go crazy and have fun. Not all recruiters get people as excited to join the Navy as us judge advocates, and more often than not they are up for accommodating unique requests (you'll probably have to wait until you are officially in the Navy to do underwater or flying-in-a-helo type of ceremonies, though).

Elle in Combat Boots
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Elle in Combat Boots » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:13 pm

anonnyyymous wrote:What are the consequences of reneging on a summer unpaid internship? Blacklisted from the branch?


There is an alternate list for a reason; just let the intern program manager know sooner rather than later so that the alternate that gets your spot can start the security clearance process and plan for the summer. Internship selection lists (and the list of those that decline internship offers) are not provided to the accession boards.

CJLaw09
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby CJLaw09 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:27 am

deadthrone7 wrote:
CJLaw09 wrote:
deadthrone7 wrote:Submitted my 4th package today. Good luck, everybody.


I saw earlier in the thread you are prior enlisted, too. With it being your 4th application, I assume you are a DA applicant? What type of litigation experience do you have?



I am a SP applicant. Started applying fall of 2L year, graduate in May. Had a pretty mediocre GPA that’s been steadily rising at a T2. Worked in a couple prosecutors offices in two fairly large jurisdictions and have some decent trial experience for a 3L - far more than most my peers at least.

Hoping that carries me through on my last shot here as a student.


I’m in a similar situation hoping my legal experience and prior service makes up for mediocre grades at a mediocre school. I met an LT at my SI who was selected 3 years ago at the age of 38 with 14 years of legal experience as trial counsel at a Philly law firm. So, the board does value practical experience. Good luck.

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deadthrone7
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby deadthrone7 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:36 am

CJLaw09 wrote:
deadthrone7 wrote:
CJLaw09 wrote:
deadthrone7 wrote:Submitted my 4th package today. Good luck, everybody.


I saw earlier in the thread you are prior enlisted, too. With it being your 4th application, I assume you are a DA applicant? What type of litigation experience do you have?



I am a SP applicant. Started applying fall of 2L year, graduate in May. Had a pretty mediocre GPA that’s been steadily rising at a T2. Worked in a couple prosecutors offices in two fairly large jurisdictions and have some decent trial experience for a 3L - far more than most my peers at least.

Hoping that carries me through on my last shot here as a student.


I’m in a similar situation hoping my legal experience and prior service makes up for mediocre grades at a mediocre school. I met an LT at my SI who was selected 3 years ago at the age of 38 with 14 years of legal experience as trial counsel at a Philly law firm. So, the board does value practical experience. Good luck.


Thanks! Good luck to you too!

CJLaw09
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby CJLaw09 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:40 am

Dawg57 wrote:
CJLaw09 wrote:
Dawg57 wrote:Mine is completed and submitted as well, after finally getting my SI done. While this forum had me very prepared for it, I dont think I ever would have been fully prepared. That was as awkward as some say. But I get the standardized process; and I think it went well - *shrug*.

Now for what is, hopefully, an introduction to my long career in the military... my first "hurry up and wait" experience. there are 70 days and 1680 hours in 10 weeks... in case anyone is counting. lol.


I agree with it being awkward. But I wonder HOW they grade it because I thought the fact patterns were pretty straight forward, if everyone has the same answers (with little nuances) do they grade on delivery, confidence, appearance, but just make it seem they’re not paying attention to you?


I speak only from research and not from any real knowledge gained during the interview, in an effort not to disclose anything I shouldn’t. But I imagine each question averages ten potential points. They prob aren’t each ten points exactly but I bet they all are about that range, with points allocated that are gimmes for covering the full facts and responding thoroughly as well as not saying anything insane. I would guess the first 3 of 10 are almost automatic if you know what you are doing. the next 3-4 are prob attainable for those that are prepared, thoughtful, well spoken and able to articulate their responses better than average. And I think the last 3ish points are where the good candidates are seperated from the great, almost automatic recommendations b/c for whatever reason they just have it figured out, know exactly what to say with the right brevity, don’t ramble, don’t cut too short and really tie up their answer with a bow. An incredibly hard feat given the circumstances, but surely done by a select few each board.

Those like FedAtty here and others on Other boards have essentially pieced together that of the 60 points available a 40 isn’t incredibly hard to get, but takes work, and anything over a 50 is awfully awfully rare. So while there is some separation of the crowd it is still likely (in awful law school irony) centered in a bell curve around the 38-44 point range for applicants’ interview scores.

obviously I didn’t pull back the veil on the process for you, but those are my deductions.


Thanks. Very valuable information there. In retrospect, I think it played out more like an oral law school exam than a job interview. I tried to be succinct with my answers and concentrated an awful lot on delivery (much like I do for my opening and closing statements at trial). I wish I’d have talked with you before going in because my strategy would have changed. I probably would have simply rambled on, hitting every single possible point. The SI portion for me only lasted about 30 minutes (10 minutes of talking before and after, so in total I was in there for almost an hour) The kid before me was in there for an hour and a half.

Well, there’s nothing I can do about it now.

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Dawg57
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Re: Military Law - Navy Jag Student Program

Postby Dawg57 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:30 pm

CJLaw09 wrote:
Dawg57 wrote:
CJLaw09 wrote:
Dawg57 wrote:Mine is completed and submitted as well, after finally getting my SI done. While this forum had me very prepared for it, I dont think I ever would have been fully prepared. That was as awkward as some say. But I get the standardized process; and I think it went well - *shrug*.

Now for what is, hopefully, an introduction to my long career in the military... my first "hurry up and wait" experience. there are 70 days and 1680 hours in 10 weeks... in case anyone is counting. lol.


I agree with it being awkward. But I wonder HOW they grade it because I thought the fact patterns were pretty straight forward, if everyone has the same answers (with little nuances) do they grade on delivery, confidence, appearance, but just make it seem they’re not paying attention to you?


I speak only from research and not from any real knowledge gained during the interview, in an effort not to disclose anything I shouldn’t. But I imagine each question averages ten potential points. They prob aren’t each ten points exactly but I bet they all are about that range, with points allocated that are gimmes for covering the full facts and responding thoroughly as well as not saying anything insane. I would guess the first 3 of 10 are almost automatic if you know what you are doing. the next 3-4 are prob attainable for those that are prepared, thoughtful, well spoken and able to articulate their responses better than average. And I think the last 3ish points are where the good candidates are seperated from the great, almost automatic recommendations b/c for whatever reason they just have it figured out, know exactly what to say with the right brevity, don’t ramble, don’t cut too short and really tie up their answer with a bow. An incredibly hard feat given the circumstances, but surely done by a select few each board.

Those like FedAtty here and others on Other boards have essentially pieced together that of the 60 points available a 40 isn’t incredibly hard to get, but takes work, and anything over a 50 is awfully awfully rare. So while there is some separation of the crowd it is still likely (in awful law school irony) centered in a bell curve around the 38-44 point range for applicants’ interview scores.

obviously I didn’t pull back the veil on the process for you, but those are my deductions.


Thanks. Very valuable information there. In retrospect, I think it played out more like an oral law school exam than a job interview. I tried to be succinct with my answers and concentrated an awful lot on delivery (much like I do for my opening and closing statements at trial). I wish I’d have talked with you before going in because my strategy would have changed. I probably would have simply rambled on, hitting every single possible point. The SI portion for me only lasted about 30 minutes (10 minutes of talking before and after, so in total I was in there for almost an hour) The kid before me was in there for an hour and a half.

Well, there’s nothing I can do about it now.


Yeah, I mean I am just doing informed speculating. Thats a good analogy though, much like my law school exams, I rambled quite a bit. Only counting the time from hearing the first question to completing my final answer I was talking for about 55 minutes or so. Then add 10ish minutes at the beginning and 15 at the end and yeah I was in there about an hour and a half as well. I have worried maybe I spoke too long on some, but if its a pure points system then maybe it will work out for the better for me. I suppose we will all be speculating for the next two months, regardless. lol.

is it April yet? -- :?




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