ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness Forum

(Study Tips, Dealing With Stress, Maintaining a Social Life, Financial Aid, Internships, Bar Exam, Careers in Law . . . )
Locked

What now?

Don't do it, graduate from LS in 2.5 years and realize an even larger debt while unemployed
68
46%
Return home to live with parents in quiet shame and despair until they disown me for being an abject failure
39
26%
Shoot myself in the head with a large caliber bullet
42
28%
 
Total votes: 149

User avatar
OperaSoprano

Gold
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:13 am

:oops: You guys, stop! I'm really not.

I know Lxw didn't do this out of malice. I think he genuinely regrets doing it. I can't stay angry with him because I know he acted out of the same terror that animates all of us, but that doesn't change the fact that his prank was poopyheaded in the extreme. (I like that word. I think I shall appropriate it.)

User avatar
prezidentv8

Gold
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:15 am

dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)
I'm in favor of Fail-Pass-High Pass, with a low cap on the high passes. It's not that everyone needs to get A's, but that (for various reasons I believe) the curve is unnecessary at this level, especially at a professional school. There are valid arguments against this point of view, but I tend to chalk them up to a different weighting of priorities. Plus I'm one of those types of people that looks at whatever is the established system and instantly gets critical. So ya know...attribute it to that. And the fact that I'm doing work at 3 AM in January.

User avatar
prezidentv8

Gold
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:15 am

MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!

D. H2Oman

Platinum
Posts: 7445
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:47 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by D. H2Oman » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:16 am

OS is Awesome

User avatar
macattaq

Bronze
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by macattaq » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:20 am

Dwaterman86 wrote:OS is Awesome
+10,000

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


User avatar
dresden doll

Platinum
Posts: 6797
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by dresden doll » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:20 am

mallard wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)
Of course this is right. But it doesn't necessarily incent the sort of behavior or mindset that we might like.
That is true. But the lack of standardization among instructors would leave your GPA open to the impact of the random factor of who you got to have as a professor.

I'm not saying curve cannot be arbitrary as well. But it's surely not nearly as arbitrary as that.

I think the one credited conclusion here is that curve= bad for easy classes but great for hard classes. In the former case, lack of curve makes it possible for everyone to get an A rather than having professor arrive at grades via meticulous nitpicking whereas in the latter scenario, the curve assures that at least someone will succeed.

User avatar
OperaSoprano

Gold
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:24 am

dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)
<3 my darling.

If grades were not of such paramount importance to legal employers (and indeed, nearly the sole determining factor in who gets which job), perhaps it wouldn't matter so much. Is there really going to be that much difference in practical ability between a 3.5 student and a 3.7 student? My very dear L, an MSW student at my school, works as hard as I do, but she doesn't have to be paranoid about her grades. She won't be less of a therapist if she gets a B+ instead of an A- in some foundational course, and psych employers know that.

I am 100% in favor of a meritocracy, but there ought to be some non grade based ways of displaying merit. At the very least, given the psychological baggage attached to grades, the whole curve ought to be adjusted upward. Why torment people with C+s (or low passes) needlessly? We all had similar entering credentials relative to our classmates. We are all smart, dedicated, and hardworking. There is no one at my school who would not make a kick ass lawyer, and I suspect the same is true generally among our classmates.

User avatar
prezidentv8

Gold
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:25 am

dresden doll wrote:
mallard wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)
Of course this is right. But it doesn't necessarily incent the sort of behavior or mindset that we might like.
That is true. But the lack of standardization among instructors would leave your GPA open to the impact of the random factor of who you got to have as a professor.

I'm not saying curve cannot be arbitrary as well. But it's surely not nearly as arbitrary as that.

I think the one credited conclusion here is that curve= bad for easy classes but great for hard classes. In the former case, lack of curve makes it possible for everyone to get an A rather than having professor arrive at grades via meticulous nitpicking whereas in the latter scenario, the curve assures that at least someone will succeed.
Yeah...in a funny way I wish my classes were substantively harder (rather than me just not having a clue how to write my exams). I've never felt so confident about my knowledge (perhaps minus Erie), but so uneasy about a grade, mainly because I was literally making stylistic guesses on the exam, and the questions asked either a) were policy based or b) had enough issues such that I couldn't imagine somebody completely whiffing. This scares me a little. Thank God I'm not only in it for the prestige and the money hahahaha.

User avatar
prezidentv8

Gold
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:25 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
dresden doll wrote:Not to be the next poopyhead ITT, but anti-curve crusaders ought to consider the fact that curve's existence standardizes differences among instructors. If it weren't for it, we'd all be left hoping we got professors inclined to give out As. My initial English professor in high school gave out exactly one A in my class (luckily, I was the happy recipient). My next one - who was considerably milder and less demanding - gave out 12.

Yeah, curve makes it impossible for everyone to get As. However, it also assures that someone must have an A at least. I've had exams in my life where I'd get a C+ and said C+ would be the highest grade in the class - and that was okay, because no one needed to get any particular grade. Just sayin'.

All that said, I concur with the 'OS is awesome' sentiment. :)
<3 my darling.

If grades were not of such paramount importance to legal employers (and indeed, nearly the sole determining factor in who gets which job), perhaps it wouldn't matter so much. Is there really going to be that much difference in practical ability between a 3.5 student and a 3.7 student? My very dear L, an MSW student at my school, works as hard as I do, but she doesn't have to be paranoid about her grades. She won't be less of a therapist if she gets a B+ instead of an A- in some foundational course, and psych employers know that.

I am 100% in favor of a meritocracy, but there ought to be some non grade based ways of displaying merit. At the very least, given the psychological baggage attached to grades, the whole curve ought to be adjusted upward. Why torment people with C+s (or low passes) needlessly? We all had similar entering credentials relative to our classmates. We are all smart, dedicated, and hardworking. There is no one at my school who would not make a kick ass lawyer, and I suspect the same is true generally among our classmates.
You're thinkin along my lines.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


User avatar
mallard

Silver
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:45 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by mallard » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:25 am

I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
  • the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
  • the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
  • the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
  • the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
  • etc.
Last edited by mallard on Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
OperaSoprano

Gold
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:28 am

prezidentv8 wrote:MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!
Of course we are. We are all among the more notorious insomniacs of this board.

And people need to quit with the misguided notion that I am awesome. What I am is lucky, because I have all of you.

User avatar
macattaq

Bronze
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by macattaq » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:30 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!
Of course we are. We are all among the more notorious insomniacs of this board.

And people need to quit with the misguided notion that I am awesome. What I am is lucky, because I have all of you.
No, we are lucky because we have you.

User avatar
dresden doll

Platinum
Posts: 6797
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by dresden doll » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:31 am

mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
[*]the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
[*]the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
[*]the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
[*]the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
[*]etc.
This is undoubtedly credited.

Frankly, I am not sure that curve-based world beats the curveless one. I merely meant to point out that injustices wouldn't necessarily go away if we abolished the curve.

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


User avatar
prezidentv8

Gold
Posts: 2823
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:33 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by prezidentv8 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:31 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:MALLARD!! OS!!! YOU'RE UP?!?!
We are all among the more notorious insomniacs of this board.

You said it.

User avatar
macattaq

Bronze
Posts: 436
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by macattaq » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:33 am

dresden doll wrote:
mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
[*]the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
[*]the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
[*]the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
[*]the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
[*]etc.
This is undoubtedly credited.

Frankly, I am not sure that curve-based world beats the curveless one. I merely meant to point out that injustices wouldn't necessarily go away if we abolished the curve.
That's true. There still has to be some way of sorting people out in order to find the best potential employees. At a certain point, it doesn't really matter what is done to 'fix' the system because there will always be an injustice done to someone. I mean, employers can't interview everyone, and even doing that wouldn't give them all the information they need to know to make a good decision.

User avatar
OperaSoprano

Gold
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by OperaSoprano » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:53 am

macattaq wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
[*]the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
[*]the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
[*]the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
[*]the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
[*]etc.
This is undoubtedly credited.

Frankly, I am not sure that curve-based world beats the curveless one. I merely meant to point out that injustices wouldn't necessarily go away if we abolished the curve.
That's true. There still has to be some way of sorting people out in order to find the best potential employees. At a certain point, it doesn't really matter what is done to 'fix' the system because there will always be an injustice done to someone. I mean, employers can't interview everyone, and even doing that wouldn't give them all the information they need to know to make a good decision.
<3 you too.

You do make a good point here, in that if there are not enough desirable jobs to go around, no amount of fixing the system can prevent some students from having unfavorable outcomes. However, I believe the current system is designed to produce more grief than necessary. Mallard outlined the reasons for this with perfect clarity.

User avatar
thesealocust

Platinum
Posts: 8525
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by thesealocust » Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:14 pm

mallard wrote:I think it's less the curve per se and more everything associated with the law school curve in particular:
  • the specific thrust of the "issue spotter" exam;
  • the stress of a one class, one grade, one exam metric;
  • the particular impact of 1L grades on OCI, and first-semester grades on 1L hiring;
  • the role of prestige in law school and the legal profession in general;
  • etc.
TITCR. The other thing that people tend to forget is that curves aren't these horrible, monstrous, artificial instruments of torture - they are a natural phenomena. If you give a bunch of people a hard task, and then evaluate their performance, they are the ones that hand the professor a bell curve. All the professor and school do is turn the natural curve into grade letters writ spefific.

The rest of Mallard's points are super credited. 1L grades matter a ton, we get little feedback on how to get good 1L grades, we only have once chance, and we all know it's zero sum. Which does suck, but I'm still a curve apologist because it's organic and all-natural :P

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


User avatar
YCrevolution

Gold
Posts: 3854
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:25 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by YCrevolution » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:03 pm

..

Mal

New
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:06 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by Mal » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:15 pm

OS is awesome (<3 from Canada).

I think the curve sucking is a function of the extreme repercussions for doing poorly, and not knowing how to do well.

User avatar
sawwaverunner

Bronze
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:28 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by sawwaverunner » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:32 pm

Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.

Leeroy Jenkins

Silver
Posts: 958
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:19 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by Leeroy Jenkins » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:33 pm

sawwaverunner wrote:Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.
Are you suggesting OS is only relatively awesome??? GET OUT

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

Register now, it's still FREE!


User avatar
YCrevolution

Gold
Posts: 3854
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:25 am

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by YCrevolution » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:34 pm

..

User avatar
MTal

Silver
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by MTal » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:37 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
sawwaverunner wrote:Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.
We should grade TLS on a curve, then. The bottom 20% (as judged by the mod team, of course) get banned.
Please keep your power-trip wet dreams out of this. Thx.

User avatar
MTal

Silver
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by MTal » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:38 pm

OS is awesome because she's one of the few admins that's nice to me.

Leeroy Jenkins

Silver
Posts: 958
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:19 pm

Re: ITT (post-pg 4) we discuss OperaSoprano's awesomeness

Post by Leeroy Jenkins » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:42 pm

YCrevolution wrote:
sawwaverunner wrote:Everything is relative people. That's life, not BS law school antics.
We should grade TLS on a curve, then. The bottom 20% (as judged by the mod team, of course) get banned.
You'd have to ban about 6770 members

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


Locked

Return to “Forum for Law School Students”