Fordham Law 1L - Below 50% - Drop out? Forum

[orangeswarm]

However, do note that I was voted Worst Mod of 2009©.

I see why........what a joke.

EDIT: to keep from stooping to your level.

[OG Loc]

You'd be able to knock 20k off your debt if you moved to the Bronx or NJ. Borrowing money to pay Manhattan rent is craziness. I'm assuming you must be, to manage running up that much debt.

Right. That much debt for a non-T14 school is irresponsible. Either go somewhere where you get some sort of scholarship or go somewhere where the COL/tuition isn't so high.

1) Living in NJ or the Bronx are certainly options for saving money, though transportation costs need to be factored in, as do ease of commute and commuting times. I made the decision to live six blocks from school, with a roommate, and I still pay less than I would in the dorms. I'm not doing this at rock bottom cost, but the convenience has seriously saved my butt many a time. Arrow, a very successful Berkeley transfer student, reflected on a positive correlation between proximity to one's school and 1L GPA. I wouldn't be surprised if this holds true here, though I'd have to strong arm everyone into telling me their grades to find out.

2) The debt level an individual is comfortable with will vary. For someone counting entirely on biglaw, it would be foolish to take a gamble outside the very, very top schools at any price. I maintain that Fordham is 100% worth the price I am paying. I regret many things in my life, but not this decision. I will confess that I am unusual, however. I view the legal education as an end in itself, in addition to the necessary prerequisite for finding legal employment.

Eh, I don't think the bus/subway/PATH fares will cover much of the difference in rents. I found arrow's thing, and I would wager he would have done just as well if he took the bus. Anyway if OP is living within walking distance, it doesn't seem to be doing them any favors GPA wise. I think moving to the hood is a sensible suggestion to a person who is running up so much debt they are considering dropping out of school.

BTW I fell the same way about legal study being an end. I get the impression from these forums that most people don't, which is unfortunate.

[JCougar]

You'd be able to knock 20k off your debt if you moved to the Bronx or NJ. Borrowing money to pay Manhattan rent is craziness. I'm assuming you must be, to manage running up that much debt.

Right. That much debt for a non-T14 school is irresponsible. Either go somewhere where you get some sort of scholarship or go somewhere where the COL/tuition isn't so high.

1) Living in NJ or the Bronx are certainly options for saving money, though transportation costs need to be factored in, as do ease of commute and commuting times. I made the decision to live six blocks from school, with a roommate, and I still pay less than I would in the dorms. I'm not doing this at rock bottom cost, but the convenience has seriously saved my butt many a time. Arrow, a very successful Berkeley transfer student, reflected on a positive correlation between proximity to one's school and 1L GPA. I wouldn't be surprised if this holds true here, though I'd have to strong arm everyone into telling me their grades to find out.

2) The debt level an individual is comfortable with will vary. For someone counting entirely on biglaw, it would be foolish to take a gamble outside the very, very top schools at any price. I maintain that Fordham is 100% worth the price I am paying. I regret many things in my life, but not this decision. I will confess that I am unusual, however. I view the legal education as an end in itself, in addition to the necessary prerequisite for finding legal employment.

I won't argue with you that living close to school is a good idea, but I lived in Chicago during grad school for slightly over $10K per year, and some of that was covered by working over the summer. I don't understand how people need over $20K in living expenses loans for all three years of school, which is what you need to take out to achieve the debt level of OP. I know New York is even more expensive than Chicago, but 1) at least one of your summers you should find paid work, and 2) living expenses don't even have to cover 3 years: they cover 2 years, 9 months. I lived with three other roommates in Chicago in a not so great neighborhood, but our place wasn't that crowded. I understand for girls it's different living in a sketchy neighborhood, but there were single girls in my neighborhood, and taking out that much money for COL loans is excessive nonetheless.

[solidsnake]

In grad school, you can basically do whatever you want for employment over the summer. In law school, you pretty much have to find legal employment. And, ITE, that generally means unpaid legal employment.

[JCougar]

In grad school, you can basically do whatever you want for employment over the summer. In law school, you pretty much have to find legal employment. And, ITE, that generally means unpaid legal employment.

Even 2L? I would think that the average 2L from Fordham should be able to find something that pays at least a couple bucks. Maybe not last summer, but in your average summer.

[frost]

I agree that living expenses can be cut down. I'm also a Fordham student, took out 10k for living costs and I'm using below that amount. I'm living in an outer borough with roommates (about 40 minutes away, and I do a class's worth of reading on the train) so rent is only 500/mo. Food and everything else in my area is also much cheaper than around school. Also I try to use every possible way to cut costs - packing lunch, getting books cheaper online, etc. There are definitely ways to decrease your expenses so that you don't graduate with 210k in loans.

[JCougar]

I agree that living expenses can be cut down. I'm also a Fordham student, took out 10k for living costs and I'm using below that amount. I'm living in an outer borough with roommates (about 40 minutes away, and I do a class's worth of reading on the train) so rent is only 500/mo. Food and everything else in my area is also much cheaper than around school. Also I try to use every possible way to cut costs - packing lunch, getting books cheaper online, etc. There are definitely ways to decrease your expenses so that you don't graduate with 210k in loans.

Reading on the train is awesome. No TV or internet to distract you. No traffic to cut you off. You can get a lot of work done on one.

[A'nold]

BetaSteve you need to chill out. You act like a policeman on a power trip. OS has repeatedly made public her postgrad plans.

And I find the word cunt offensive so please don't use it again.

[OperaSoprano]

BetaSteve you need to chill out. You act like a policeman on a power trip. OS has repeatedly made public her postgrad plans.

And I find the word cunt offensive so please don't use it again.

Wow, this got contentious quickly. Betasteve, I appreciate your attempt to protect my privacy, even if there is no privacy to protect. It's a running joke that there are few TLSers who overshare more than I do. I unintentionally made it very easy for my school to figure out my identity back when I was first admitted. I am upfront, and have always maintained that without IBR, I would not be able to attend Fordham. On an estimated $40k per year PI salary, even after my LRAP kicked in, my loan payments would nearly equal my take home pay. Because IBR will limit my monthly payments, I can make this work.

As frost points out, there are ways of keeping COL down. I chose to take out full COL loans, in part because I have some atypical expenses for a student. I also had to purchase health insurance, which is not factored into Fordham's estimated budget. If I hadn't earned money by freelancing this semester, I don't know how I would've paid for it.

SBL honestly gave the best advice in this thread. Dropping out because you don't want to be a lawyer makes sense. Dropping out because you got one B is quite silly when taking the long view.

[XxSpyKEx]

BetaSteve you need to chill out. You act like a policeman on a power trip. OS has repeatedly made public her postgrad plans.

And I find the word cunt offensive so please don't use it again.

Wow, this got contentious quickly. Betasteve, I appreciate your attempt to protect my privacy, even if there is no privacy to protect. It's a running joke that there are few TLSers who overshare more than I do. I unintentionally made it very easy for my school to figure out my identity back when I was first admitted. I am upfront, and have always maintained that without IBR, I would not be able to attend Fordham. On an estimated $40k per year PI salary, even after my LRAP kicked in, my loan payments would nearly equal my take home pay. Because IBR will limit my monthly payments, I can make this work.

As frost points out, there are ways of keeping COL down. I chose to take out full COL loans, in part because I have some atypical expenses for a student. I also had to purchase health insurance, which is not factored into Fordham's estimated budget. If I hadn't earned money by freelancing this semester, I don't know how I would've paid for it.

SBL honestly gave the best advice in this thread. Dropping out because you don't want to be a lawyer makes sense. Dropping out because you got one B is quite silly when taking the long view.

Why does everyone keep saying this on this thread? I thought OP was looking for thoughts on whether he should drop out if all his grades are a "B" or lower (i.e. "below 50%" in class rank), not merely one grade.

IMO, there is a difference between what you want and what you can feasibly attain. I think it would be pretty awesome to be a neurosurgeon, but I hated bio 2 in UG and ended up with a D in it, so it's not exactly feasible for me to try to become a neurosurgeon at all costs. Similarly, just because you want to be a lawyer doesn't necessarily make it a good idea to become one at all costs and ruin yourself financially (not to say everyone that is paying sticker at any specific school and ends up below top half will be doing that, but ability repaying your student loans definitely a consideration that you weigh against how much you want to be a lawyer and many other things).

[Snooker]

regarding the neurosurgeon analogy, I think this is a good point with respect to the law. If you like the subject, keep going with it. If you hate it and were more motivated to become a lawyer based on TV drama than real world experience, it's not worth it to stay.

[1Lpanic]

[/quote] Why does everyone keep saying this on this thread? I thought OP was looking for thoughts on whether he should drop out if all his grades are a "B" or lower (i.e. "below 50%" in class rank), not merely one grade. [/quote]

This poster is correct, it was about being below median and being able to find a job.

In case anyone wanted an update, I got another exam back and did not get the B+ I needed to try to get my GPA above median. At this point, I am looking at a GPA way fairly below median (and in bottom half of class) for my first semester.

My dilemma is whether I should stay, paying full tuition, if my 1L grades are below median. If I'm below median, will I be able to get a job with the kind of career growth that will enable me to pay off full tuition for three years?


To other posters who asked, I live in an outer borough and have cheap rent. I live with roommates. I don't go out to dinner very often. I do have some other expenses (and even no health insurance).

[1Lpanic]

I shouldn't have gone to Fordham over one of the schools that offered me money...

I'm back to panicking and trying to think of a plan b to pay off the loans for this year.

[sanpiero]

Apply down and pray for a scholarship? Talk to lower ranked schools you'd consider to see if scholarship money is available for 2L transfers.

[Danteshek]

Suck it up, improve your grades, and graduate in the top 10% of your class.

[OperaSoprano]

OP: My grades are trickling in as well. This is a really stressful time, and I don't think you should do anything rash. You still have another grade pending, and it is impossible to know your standing with only 2 out of 3 grades. If you are below median, you may start with a salary in the $40-70k range, but after a few years of practice you will probably have more discretionary income to put toward payments. I assume you've done enough research on IBR to determine whether you want to use this program. If you stick it out, you won't get rich instantly, but your payments will be manageable, and you should still be able to save and invest. The debt itself is not a death sentence, and as long as you don't default, you should be able to make your payments and get on with your life.

I would recommend making an appointment with our CSO when all of your grades are in. They can't work miracles, but they gave me some helpful information. Larger firms do have GPA cutoffs, but half of each year's graduating class is below median, and clearly they are not all unemployed or in "business," even ITE. TLS is biglaw-centric, and it would be wise to get other perspectives before you make a decision.

[im_blue]

OP: My grades are trickling in as well. This is a really stressful time, and I don't think you should do anything rash. You still have another grade pending, and it is impossible to know your standing with only 2 out of 3 grades. If you are below median, you may start with a salary in the $40-70k range, but after a few years of practice you will probably have more discretionary income to put toward payments. I assume you've done enough research on IBR to determine whether you want to use this program. If you stick it out, you won't get rich instantly, but your payments will be manageable, and you should still be able to save and invest. The debt itself is not a death sentence, and as long as you don't default, you should be able to make your payments and get on with your life.

I would recommend making an appointment with our CSO when all of your grades are in. They can't work miracles, but they gave me some helpful information. Larger firms do have GPA cutoffs, but half of each year's graduating class is below median, and clearly they are not all unemployed or in "business," even ITE. TLS is biglaw-centric, and it would be wise to get other perspectives before you make a decision.

I imagine it must be quite a stressful time when you're up at 4am EST!

[bees]

OP: My grades are trickling in as well. This is a really stressful time, and I don't think you should do anything rash. You still have another grade pending, and it is impossible to know your standing with only 2 out of 3 grades. If you are below median, you may start with a salary in the $40-70k range, but after a few years of practice you will probably have more discretionary income to put toward payments. I assume you've done enough research on IBR to determine whether you want to use this program. If you stick it out, you won't get rich instantly, but your payments will be manageable, and you should still be able to save and invest. The debt itself is not a death sentence, and as long as you don't default, you should be able to make your payments and get on with your life.

I would recommend making an appointment with our CSO when all of your grades are in. They can't work miracles, but they gave me some helpful information. Larger firms do have GPA cutoffs, but half of each year's graduating class is below median, and clearly they are not all unemployed or in "business," even ITE. TLS is biglaw-centric, and it would be wise to get other perspectives before you make a decision.

Are there a significant number of students at Fordham who graduate below the median and end up making 70k?

[OperaSoprano]

OP: My grades are trickling in as well. This is a really stressful time, and I don't think you should do anything rash. You still have another grade pending, and it is impossible to know your standing with only 2 out of 3 grades. If you are below median, you may start with a salary in the $40-70k range, but after a few years of practice you will probably have more discretionary income to put toward payments. I assume you've done enough research on IBR to determine whether you want to use this program. If you stick it out, you won't get rich instantly, but your payments will be manageable, and you should still be able to save and invest. The debt itself is not a death sentence, and as long as you don't default, you should be able to make your payments and get on with your life.

I would recommend making an appointment with our CSO when all of your grades are in. They can't work miracles, but they gave me some helpful information. Larger firms do have GPA cutoffs, but half of each year's graduating class is below median, and clearly they are not all unemployed or in "business," even ITE. TLS is biglaw-centric, and it would be wise to get other perspectives before you make a decision.

I imagine it must be quite a stressful time when you're up at 4am EST!

Oh, that. I can't sleep, but it's not related to grades.

And to answer bees, we don't have official numbers that are more recent than 2008, so no one knows. ITE, probably many people are making at the lower end of the range, depending on the type of employer. If you've seen the bimodal salary distribution graphic, you'll have some idea of what I'm talking about. My point is that even in the worst case scenario, OP will have some options, and will be able to spread out payments.

[XxSpyKEx]

Suck it up, improve your grades, and graduate in the top 10% of your class.

It wouldn't really matter as far as biglaw goes since biglaw hires very near exclusively out of the 2L summer class, and the 2L summer hiring is based on 1L grades .... Biglaw is really the only way that OP will repay $200K+ in loans in the forseeable future (absent public interest and IBR -- not that easy to get into for someone not very serious about making a career in public service).

[im_blue]

Suck it up, improve your grades, and graduate in the top 10% of your class.

It wouldn't really matter as far as biglaw goes since biglaw hires very near exclusively out of the 2L summer class, and the 2L summer hiring is based on 1L grades .... Biglaw is really the only way that OP will repay $200K+ in loans in the forseeable future (absent public interest and IBR -- not that easy to get into for someone not very serious about making a career in public service).

Meh, worst case if one can't find any job at all, even a librarian or DMV job is eligible for IBR.

[Timothy Wreck]

In similar situation to OP. Any guess when your third grade comes out (contracts in my case -sec 3).

[OG Loc]

To other posters who asked, I live in an outer borough and have cheap rent. I live with roommates. I don't go out to dinner very often. I do have some other expenses (and even no health insurance).[/quote]

Apologies. Hope things work out.

[struggling1L]

i'm a 1L at fordham as well. i'm still waiting to get one of my 5 credit grades back but at this point am very disappointed and could use some advice. i received a B in a 3 credit class and a B plus in a 5 credit class. i just have a dreadful feeling that my other 5 credit class will be a B. i do not think that i worked as hard this semester as i could, and definitely did not work as smart (it's been quite a while since i've been in school, 5 plus years and it took getting used to). assuming that i can raise my grades signficantly (let's not question for the moment if that is actually a possible dream or not), is my gpa recoverable to the point to get me in the top 30 or so percent?

[1Lpanic]

Still waiting for my last grade. Will update when I receive it. Praying for a B+, otherwise I'll be below median with a 3.0.