Transferring potential Forum

[cpo335]

I am currently enrolled in a part-time program at a T4 school that I have recently come to realize that it might not be a good investment. I believe I am too late in the cycle now to rescind my enrollment, nor would I honestly like to, so I will be looking to transfer after my first semester to a better school. My undergraduate GPA was 2.8 and my LSAT is 149. I’m not looking to work in BigLaw or anything, but I would like to make $200k - $300k (not immediately out of school, but maybe mid-career). I don’t know what type of law I’d like to practice yet, but I do know that I have an interest in working as in-house counsel in the future (although this isn’t necessary).

I am inquiring about my potential for transferring to a bigger, better school. I’m not exactly sure what schools look for or what the best route would be to pursue (I’ve heard part-time is easier to attain than full-time enrollment). What would it take to be admitted into these programs? I’m targeting Boston University, Boston College, University of Alabama, or maybe a school if similar caliber in the DC region. I’m also hopeful for a school in Texas.

Should I retake the LSAT while I attend law school and submit newer, hopefully better scores, or should I just base my package on my grades and law school GPA? Any guidance would be appreciated.

Thank you!

[nixy]

Transferring is based almost entirely on your 1L grades, so you need to make those impeccable. A T4 student has fewer transfer options. There should be ABA disclosures about the average GPA for students accepted as transfers I think? Your LSAT is largely irrelevant now unless you withdrew from your current program and started over, which is complicated but I believe possible.

Also,I don’t think most of the schools you list have part time programs?

[QContinuum]

I’m targeting Boston University, Boston College, University of Alabama, or maybe a school if similar caliber in the DC region. I’m also hopeful for a school in Texas.

Where do you want to live and practice for the next 40+ years? Schools beyond the T13/T20 place regionally. It doesn't generally make sense for anyone to apply to non-T13/T20 schools across the country. Folks who'd enjoy living and working in Boston or D.C. are unlikely to enjoy living and working in Alabama (and vice versa).

[cpo335]

Transferring is based almost entirely on your 1L grades, so you need to make those impeccable. A T4 student has fewer transfer options. There should be ABA disclosures about the average GPA for students accepted as transfers I think? Your LSAT is largely irrelevant now unless you withdrew from your current program and started over, which is complicated but I believe possible.

Also,I don’t think most of the schools you list have part time programs?

Well that's good news. Do you know if being a part-time student will have any effect on attempting to transfer to a full-time program? Also, coming from a T4 school, how restricted are my options? Do you mean that schools like Georgetown or Boston U. are out of reach even if I have a good GPA?

I’m targeting Boston University, Boston College, University of Alabama, or maybe a school if similar caliber in the DC region. I’m also hopeful for a school in Texas.

Where do you want to live and practice for the next 40+ years? Schools beyond the T13/T20 place regionally. It doesn't generally make sense for anyone to apply to non-T13/T20 schools across the country. Folks who'd enjoy living and working in Boston or D.C. are unlikely to enjoy living and working in Alabama (and vice versa).

Thanks for the info, I hadn't taken regional practice into consideration and will start thinking about it moving forward. As of now I'm not sure where I'd like to settle geographically.

[cavalier1138]

If you don't have a semester of grades, it's not too late to get out. Otherwise, you're gambling on having stellar grades, and that's a bad thing to gamble on.

[nixy]

The thing about being a part time student is that you have to complete the equivalent of one full year of courses before you can officially transfer. This can be a little complicated timing-wise but can be done - you’d probably just have to plan to take summer classes (transferring is usually done once a year with deadlines in the early summer - people are applying now to transfer for the fall).

I don’t know exactly what your options are from a T4 - again, schools have to disclose a lot of this info, so you can see where they’ve taken students from. If you google around you should be able to find this (I’m afraid I haven’t looked at this info myself so I don’t have a source to hand). It will just be harder coming from a T4 (especially since their GPAs tend to be curved lower).

[packer_22]

I am currently enrolled in a part-time program at a T4 school that I have recently come to realize that it might not be a good investment. I believe I am too late in the cycle now to rescind my enrollment, nor would I honestly like to, so I will be looking to transfer after my first semester to a better school. My undergraduate GPA was 2.8 and my LSAT is 149. I’m not looking to work in BigLaw or anything, but I would like to make $200k - $300k (not immediately out of school, but maybe mid-career). I don’t know what type of law I’d like to practice yet, but I do know that I have an interest in working as in-house counsel in the future (although this isn’t necessary).

I am inquiring about my potential for transferring to a bigger, better school. I’m not exactly sure what schools look for or what the best route would be to pursue (I’ve heard part-time is easier to attain than full-time enrollment). What would it take to be admitted into these programs? I’m targeting Boston University, Boston College, University of Alabama, or maybe a school if similar caliber in the DC region. I’m also hopeful for a school in Texas.

Should I retake the LSAT while I attend law school and submit newer, hopefully better scores, or should I just base my package on my grades and law school GPA? Any guidance would be appreciated.

Thank you!

Honestly, I know this is not the advice you asked for, but I would *still* drop out.

Your question is: what is your transfer potential.

The answer is: low or zero from your current school.

1. Transferring is determined by your school (ranked at the bottom) and your grades (unknown and out of your control).
2. You will need grades in the top 10% (minimum, if you want Georgetown, likely much higher coming from a T4).
3. Therefore, you have a 90+% of not being able to transfer from your school.

If you want to go to BU, BC, UT, you should start there.

Other points:
4. Your LSAT is irrelevant as a transfer- but if you are willing to retake the LSAT, drop out and retake the LSAT!
5. All of the schools you mentioned place much better regionally. Start with the region you want to work in and then look at the schools there and see which ones are the best.
6. Before starting law school, you should reach out to lawyers who are mid-career to see how they got there. Your career goals seem to be "make a ton of money" and law is a good (but not great) profession to do so. If you want to make 300k as a GC or something, you should go to a T14 school to maximize your chance of that happening.

[MSUN5]

I know it’s a bitter pill to swallow, OP, but I’m gonna co-sign Packer’s post.

[janereacher]

Double co-sign, especially regarding re-taking the LSAT. Also, some schools now accept the GRE. Take that as well.

[cavalier1138]

Double co-sign, especially regarding re-taking the LSAT. Also, some schools now accept the GRE. Take that as well.

One caveat: I believe that even if a school accepts the GRE, a valid LSAT score always takes precedence. So taking the GRE may not really be helpful here.

[janereacher]

Double co-sign, especially regarding re-taking the LSAT. Also, some schools now accept the GRE. Take that as well.

One caveat: I believe that even if a school accepts the GRE, a valid LSAT score always takes precedence. So taking the GRE may not really be helpful here.

Definitely would be a good idea to check with the schools about their approach. I took the GRE (for a different degree program) and for my transfer apps, the schools that accept the GRE required me to submit my GRE scores along with my LSAT score. It could be that they look at both holistically.

[cpo335]

Thank you all for the candid and honest responses. I did some research into the 509 form for various schools and it contains some pretty interesting/useful information. It seems that for the majority of “good” schools, the median GPA of transfer students hovered around 3.5. The lowest I saw was 3.4 and the highest was 3.9. This definitely seems attainable, especially if I give it an extra push and work hard.

I’ve never been to law school so I wouldn’t know, but is it really that hard to get a 3.5+ during the first and second semester of school/during 1L? It just seemed surprising to me that the transfer GPA was so low; I was expecting something like 3.9s across the board.

[MSUN5]

Thank you all for the candid and honest responses. I did some research into the 509 form for various schools and it contains some pretty interesting/useful information. It seems that for the majority of “good” schools, the median GPA of transfer students hovered around 3.5. The lowest I saw was 3.4 and the highest was 3.9. This definitely seems attainable, especially if I give it an extra push and work hard.

I’ve never been to law school so I wouldn’t know, but is it really that hard to get a 3.5+ during the first and second semester of school/during 1L? It just seemed surprising to me that the transfer GPA was so low; I was expecting something like 3.9s across the board.

It depends on the school and the curve. But, yes, it is very difficult. A 3.5 GPA generally means you’re in the Top 20% of your class. Also, as a prospective student at a T4 school, you will likely need to perform substantially better than this. Obviously, it depends on what school you are transferring to, but I think it’s unlikely you will be competitive at a T1 below T10%, or competitive at a T14 below T5%.

Really, being at a T4 is an uphill climb.

[cavalier1138]

Thank you all for the candid and honest responses. I did some research into the 509 form for various schools and it contains some pretty interesting/useful information. It seems that for the majority of “good” schools, the median GPA of transfer students hovered around 3.5. The lowest I saw was 3.4 and the highest was 3.9. This definitely seems attainable, especially if I give it an extra push and work hard.

I’ve never been to law school so I wouldn’t know, but is it really that hard to get a 3.5+ during the first and second semester of school/during 1L? It just seemed surprising to me that the transfer GPA was so low; I was expecting something like 3.9s across the board.

It depends on the school and the curve. But, yes, it is very difficult. A 3.5 GPA generally means you’re in the Top 20% of your class. Also, as a prospective student at a T4 school, you will likely need to perform substantially better than this. Obviously, it depends on what school you are transferring to, but I think it’s unlikely you will be competitive at a T1 below T10%, or competitive at a T14 below T5%.

Really, being at a T4 is an uphill climb.

This is all correct.

Law school exams are graded on a curve. You might be objectively well-versed in the law, but unless you're better than 80-90% of your classmates (and are able to be so across all your classes) at taking law school exams, you won't be in the top of the class. Since you have no idea how good any of you are at law school exams, you're taking an incredible risk by remaining enrolled.

And as pointed out, you need much more than a 3.5 to be eligible for a transfer to a decent school. It is far, far easier to get a decent LSAT than it is to be in the top of your class.

[packer_22]

Just as an example: https://law.wisc.edu/career/new_grading ... s_standing

This is the UW curve. You can see after 1L, top 10% is 3.58 and median is 3.09. This means that UW curves to a 3.1 median.

This is much higher than most T4 medians

Most T4s curve to a 3.0 or lower (even 2.8). Therefore, a 3.58 would be much higher on the curve than 10% at a school with a lower median.

Law school is not undergrad. Grades are lower because there is a forced curve that is lower than your undergrad curve. Grades are less predictable because you are graded once, on a skillset that you don't know if you have, comparatively to other people, in a way you've never seen before.

[nixy]

Yeah, T4 schools have notoriously demanding curves. Lots of people graduate with 2.somethings.

Don’t think of it as you need to get a 3.5; think of it as you need to score better than 90-95% of your classmates. You can’t control how smart they are or how hard they work.

It sounds like you haven’t started school yet - if you haven’t even started it is absolutely not too late to withdraw, retake, and reapply.

[nixy]

Also, going back to your first post - you can’t transfer after your first semester, you’d have to complete a year first.

Edited to add (sorry to keep adding stuff): you asked how hard it would be to get a 3.4-5 in 1L, but with all due respect, you had a much lower UGPA, so I’m not sure where that sentiment came from?