Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago? Forum

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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jordani

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Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by jordani » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:23 pm

Hi all, I am very torn about this decision.

Academic/Professional Background: I am currently at a mid-T2 school as a 1L in the Northeast. I only have my first semester grades. I got a 4.09 GPA my first semester and have a cumulative GPA of 3.98 (I took a summer course). I got two CALIs this past semester and although my school doesn't rank, I think I am probably top 3, at least in my class. In terms of soft factors, I am participating in the Innocence Project this semester and I got mediocre grades in undergrad and 159 on the LSAT, for what it's worth. I also have 2 years of professional experience prior to law school and was part of a precedental class action lawsuit. Other than that, nothing really sets me apart.

Personal: I moved across the country for this school because they gave me such a good deal on tuition and my boyfriend of 4 years and dog moved with me. My boyfriend just got an AMAZING dream job in the area and regardless of where I transfer, he won't be moving with me, at least at first. Needless to say, I didn't anticipate getting grades that would make transfering worth it but now I think I have a real shot at T-14 which is a revival of my childhood dreams and I am definitely going to go for it.

I am pretty sure I am a shoo-in at Georgetown and I will be applying there Early-Action (non-binding).

My dilemma is whether to do ED at Chicago or to wait for second semester grades and go for the gold at Harvard.

A few factors are really weighing on me:

- I don't feel great about any of my professors teaching styles so far (although I thought that last semester with a class I got a CALI in) ==> but basically, I'm just worried about pulling off THAT good of grades again and I know that even if I do get those grades, my shot at Harvard is still slim.
- My ambition is to sit on a federal bench one day. I am aware that any T-14 can accomplish that but some, like Harvard, would obviously make that easier.
- I don't like the idea of going to Chicago in terms of my personal life (though I'd definitely do it!) just because then I would have to fly to see my boyfriend and this transfer is already going to be a strain on our relationship.

I'm worried about having regrets in not attempting Harvard but I'm also worried I'll be disappointed in going to Georgetown because I think I have a decent shot? at UChicago, but again the distance would be difficult too.

What should I do?

QContinuum

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by QContinuum » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:40 pm

My view is that on the one hand, there is a substantial risk that your second-semester grades will decline. On the other hand, the difference in prestige/placement power between Harvard and Chicago is very slight. So IMO, it makes the most sense to ED Chicago on the strength of your first-semester grades, which - at a 3.98 - are about as perfect as law school grades can get.

I am by no means a relationship expert (wish I was!) but in my personal opinion, a good BF should be very supportive of their SO, especially at this critical early stage. If your BF is encouraging you to stay at your T2 for the sake of your relationship, that would be a major red flag if I were in your shoes.

Npret

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by Npret » Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:13 pm

You want to be a federal judge but you went to a T2 school?
You need to transfer.
Most likely you will break up, but maybe not. Plenty of people manage to stay together but it doesn’t sound like you want a career where his dream job is located.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:53 am

I'd recommend a transfer, but please be aware that most T13 students will never become federal judges. It's honestly not something you can really "aim" for, because one of the main ways you get the job is by knowing someone involved in the nomination process (or getting friendly with lobbying groups who submit names for these things). Even then, you're talking about something that only happens--if it happens at all--after you've been practicing law for at least a decade.

So what do you want to do with your degree besides shoot for the federal bench?

nixy

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by nixy » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:07 am

cavalier1138 wrote:I'd recommend a transfer, but please be aware that most T13 students will never become federal judges. It's honestly not something you can really "aim" for, because one of the main ways you get the job is by knowing someone involved in the nomination process (or getting friendly with lobbying groups who submit names for these things). Even then, you're talking about something that only happens--if it happens at all--after you've been practicing law for at least a decade.

So what do you want to do with your degree besides shoot for the federal bench?
Agreed with the above (and it’s probably more like 15 years). That said, I don’t think there’s a super close correlation with which elite school and becoming a judge - there are so many other factors that go into it (especially getting to know the right people) that I don’t think you need to be Harvard-or-bust over it. (Although don’t get me wrong, Harvard would be good not least because you’d be eligible for need-based aid.) I would also ask what you want to do in the meantime.

I guess I would find it hard to pass on Chicago right now because it is hard to pass on the chance to apply with those grades. You will probably do fine next semester but you can’t guarantee that you won’t become sick over finals, for instance, that kind of thing.

However, it’s also reasonable not to due to your personal life. I guess I wonder what you were intending to do graduating from the t2 without transferring?

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QContinuum

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by QContinuum » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:45 pm

nixy wrote:However, it’s also reasonable not to due to your personal life. I guess I wonder what you were intending to do graduating from the t2 without transferring?
I'm not sure that's reasonable from an objective standpoint, actually. We're not talking about Chicago vs. a "lower" T13 or even a T20, we're talking about Chicago vs. a T2 law school. I understand it's a serious, committed relationship as they live together. But if it's a stable relationship, it should be able to weather OP spending four semesters in a different state. (I say "four semesters" and not "two years," because of course OP need not spend their holidays/summers in Chicago. OP would only need to be in Chicago during the actual semesters.) And if the relationship isn't able to weather that, then, well, it's not the end of the world - OP isn't married and (I presume) isn't financially dependent on their BF and doesn't have kids with their BF. Maybe I'm overly ambitious or overly pragmatic, but I have a hard time seeing it as a reasonable choice to run the risk of graduating from a T2 law school in order to continue living with one's BF (especially as - not to be downbeat - but chances are the relationship won't last anyway - just look at the divorce rate, and OP isn't even married to their BF yet). We're not talking about living in different cities indefinitely - we're talking about a specific, time-limited separation with a very good reason behind it.
nixy wrote:I guess I would find it hard to pass on Chicago right now because it is hard to pass on the chance to apply with those grades. You will probably do fine next semester but you can’t guarantee that you won’t become sick over finals, for instance, that kind of thing.
I think OP will likely do fine next semester, but they are at a T2 law school. Even if their GPA only dips to 3.7 or 3.8, that could significantly lower their chances at transferring up to the pinnacle of the T13. A single lower grade could have that impact. I wouldn't bet on OP continuing to get straight As in the spring - nothing against OP's abilities, just the reality of exam grading randomness.

nixy

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by nixy » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:34 pm

I mean, personally I agree with you (and have done long distance a number of times for the reasons you give), but I’m not going to tell someone how to handle their relationship.

(I also already agreed they can’t count on getting the same grades next semester.)

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by toast and bananas » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:08 pm

I was in the same position and decided to take the sure thing. It actually worked out great for me because I received a decision in May (rather than August), and the lead time was very helpful for a number of reasons. I do not feel like I "missed out" on harvard or anything, and spending 2 years in Chicago was some of the most fun i've ever had living somewhere. I don't think anyone would say the same thing about cambridge.

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by janereacher » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:07 pm

On the personal life front, I'll just say that the Obamas made Boston-Chicago work for two years while BO finished up at Harvard Law. If your relationship is solid, you can make it work.

While anything can happen with law school grades, my experience was that style of teaching didn't make any difference but style of exam can (e.g. I aced all straight forward issue spotters). If the exams are the same, you'll likely be fine. I would probably wait for your second semester grades. The thing with the ED schools is they are betting on benefiting from risk aversion. So, I guess it comes down to how much of a gambler you are. And how much you think you would "lose".

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QContinuum

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by QContinuum » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:21 pm

janereacher wrote:On the personal life front, I'll just say that the Obamas made Boston-Chicago work for two years while BO finished up at Harvard Law. If your relationship is solid, you can make it work.

While anything can happen with law school grades, my experience was that style of teaching didn't make any difference but style of exam can (e.g. I aced all straight forward issue spotters). If the exams are the same, you'll likely be fine. I would probably wait for your second semester grades. The thing with the ED schools is they are betting on benefiting from risk aversion. So, I guess it comes down to how much of a gambler you are. And how much you think you would "lose".
But in this case, OP's GPA can only go down, pretty much, since it's more or less perfect right now. And the ED school in question is Chicago. We're not talking about giving up a shot at the T13 for a T20, or something like that.

The potential benefit - Harvard - is slight, whereas the potential downside - significantly worse second-semester grades, making a T13 transfer difficult - is huge. I don't think this is a gamble reasonably worth taking.

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by AdieuCali » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:36 pm

QContinuum wrote:
janereacher wrote:On the personal life front, I'll just say that the Obamas made Boston-Chicago work for two years while BO finished up at Harvard Law. If your relationship is solid, you can make it work.

While anything can happen with law school grades, my experience was that style of teaching didn't make any difference but style of exam can (e.g. I aced all straight forward issue spotters). If the exams are the same, you'll likely be fine. I would probably wait for your second semester grades. The thing with the ED schools is they are betting on benefiting from risk aversion. So, I guess it comes down to how much of a gambler you are. And how much you think you would "lose".
But in this case, OP's GPA can only go down, pretty much, since it's more or less perfect right now. And the ED school in question is Chicago. We're not talking about giving up a shot at the T13 for a T20, or something like that.

The potential benefit - Harvard - is slight, whereas the potential downside - significantly worse second-semester grades, making a T13 transfer difficult - is huge. I don't think this is a gamble reasonably worth taking.
FWIW my wife and I spent our first two years of marriage living 500+ miles apart. I spent 7 months of that time deployed overseas. It was tough, but I'm really glad we made that decision. She was able to finish her Masters and I got to spend that time focusing on my military career. It was an investment in ourselves that really paid off. We've now been married for 8 years, she's since earned her masters and doctorate, and I'm attending a T13 tuition-free on the GI Bill. 2 years may seem like a long time, but I think you will be making a similarly high-return investment in your future career and happiness by making it work at UC.

QContinuum

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by QContinuum » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:50 pm

AdieuCali wrote:FWIW my wife and I spent our first two years of marriage living 500+ miles apart. I spent 7 months of that time deployed overseas. It was tough, but I'm really glad we made that decision. She was able to finish her Masters and I got to spend that time focusing on my military career. It was an investment in ourselves that really paid off. We've now been married for 8 years, she's since earned her masters and doctorate, and I'm attending a T13 tuition-free on the GI Bill. 2 years may seem like a long time, but I think you will be making a similarly high-return investment in your future career and happiness by making it work at UC.
Kudos to you and your wife on both of your personal and professional successes.

And just to emphasize again to OP and those in a similar situation, it's not actually 2 calendar years apart - it's more like ~64 weeks, barely longer than 1 year, and with an entire summer in between 2L and 3L, plus winter holidays, Thanksgiving and spring break during both 2L and 3L. (I estimated ~64 weeks based on 4 semesters of 16 weeks each; I know Chicago uses a quarter system, but I can't imagine they have too many more weeks of class than law schools on a semester system.)

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by Lolstudent » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:24 pm

I'm going to say take a chance. I almost did the ED Chicago thing but felt like I always would have wondered what could have been. Even though the odds were against me I held out for H and made it in. I think I saved a ton of money by going to H instead of Chicago thanks to the need-based aid

This of course assumes that you wouldn't be miserable staying at your T2. I don't think a transfer to GULC is worth it. There isn't much you couldn't get being top 3% at your T2 that you could at GULC.

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Lolstudent

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by Lolstudent » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:27 pm

Also, I doubt you'll drop very far from a 4.0, especially with the transfer fire burning underneath you. It is of course a risk and coming from a T2 you need as close to a 4.0 as possible to land H.

Study like mad this semester.

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by QContinuum » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:06 pm

Lolstudent wrote:I'm going to say take a chance. I almost did the ED Chicago thing but felt like I always would have wondered what could have been. Even though the odds were against me I held out for H and made it in. I think I saved a ton of money by going to H instead of Chicago thanks to the need-based aid

This of course assumes that you wouldn't be miserable staying at your T2. I don't think a transfer to GULC is worth it. There isn't much you couldn't get being top 3% at your T2 that you could at GULC.

Good luck!
Congrats on your success but I honestly think this is the worst kind of confirmation bias speaking. The fact that you took a huge risk that worked out for you doesn't mean it's a good idea for others in a similar position to take the same huge risk.

Also, were you at a T2 or a T1 prior to transferring? IMO it's one thing to risk being stuck at, say, Fordham, where you have decent job prospects even if you don't end up with top-of-T13 transfer-quality grades after 1L. It's a whole different thing to risk being stuck at, say, Seton Hall or Brooklyn.

We also have to consider whether OP would even receive much/any need-based aid at H. Remember, parental income is considered up to age 29, even if the parents aren't actually contributing anything.

It shouldn't be about whether OP would be "miserable staying at [their] T2." I'm sure OP has a good social network at their T2. Rather, it should all be about the risk of not getting a (good) job out of their T2.
Lolstudent wrote:Also, I doubt you'll drop very far from a 4.0, especially with the transfer fire burning underneath you. It is of course a risk and coming from a T2 you need as close to a 4.0 as possible to land H.

Study like mad this semester.
I'm far less confident of this. My semester GPAs fluctuated from 3.4 to 3.9 and everything in between, and I assure you the 3.4 semester wasn't because I was phoning it in (nor was the 3.9 semester one where I worked particularly hard, for that matter). A single 4.0 semester - which is really impressive, don't get me wrong! - by no means guarantees a second 4.0 semester. I'm sure OP won't let up on the gas pedal but you can also expect many other 1Ls - particularly those disappointed in their first-semester grades - to also put the pedal to the metal second semester.

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Re: Transfer: Wait for Harvard or ED UChicago?

Post by wishywashy » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:04 pm

There is a family guy episode where Peter has a choice between a boat and "the mystery box" as a prize. He goes for the mystery box because "it could be a boat." I would definitely feel like I chose the mystery box if I waited for Harvard and got a ding. Double that if my grades went down second semester and Chicago regular decision told me to go kick rocks.

I would apply to Harvard and Chicago ED, if you end up at Chicago you are living the dream life of many many law students even if Harvard said yes and you had to decline (upside vs downside risks). I transfered from a higher t2 to a lower t14 and it was 100% worth it - my advice here is to apply broadly by the way not just Harvard and Chicago ED (NYU, Columbia, and maybe a T10 to be safe as you never know for sure how your application will shake out). If I recall the Chicago ED decision comes out after many transfer app deadlines, or close to it so you'll want to do the other apps regardless (if Chicago bumps you from ED to regular and you get admitted there in the regular cycle it's not binding and you could still decline for Harvard).

As far as the relationship stuff goes, I am an older student and have done the long distance thing before including putting my career on hold and moving cross country. Let's just say that making a sacrifice in your life (by staying where he is) does not equate to a better chance of staying together and there are many tens of thousands of dollars at stake plus compound interest. Just the two cents of an old person.

Best of luck!

TLDR - limit your downside risk and go Chicago ED even if you lose a little upside gain; move where you have to move and if your relationship was meant to be then it will be.

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