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3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:29 pm
by Anonymous User
With the GPA stated in the subject title, what would my options be to transfer to:

BC
BU
Harvard
Yale
UNH

The 1L curve at my current school is about a 2.5 to a 2.6. I'll look into my class rank later on. I'm not interested in practicing in BigLaw and I have a 75% scholarship and 40 minute commute right now. I'll graduate law school with roughly $33,000 in JD debt + $30,000 in undergrad debt.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:07 pm
by nrthwst4now
You can view the ABA transfer data for each school. They itemize the GPA for 75/50/25. With that GPA you are currently out for the T-13 and likely out for most in the T20. However, if you have a good spring semester, that could change for lower T-13.

Good luck!

abarequireddisclosures.org/

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:38 pm
by Anonymous User
nrthwst4now wrote:You can view the ABA transfer data for each school. They itemize the GPA for 75/50/25. With that GPA you are currently out for the T-13 and likely out for most in the T20. However, if you have a good spring semester, that could change for lower T-13.

Good luck!

abarequireddisclosures.org/


Thanks for the link. BU, BC, and UNH didn't have enough transfers in to show numbers, so I checked Cornell and I would need at least a 3.55 to have a shot there.

What would I be looking at for scholarships? From what I've read, transfers are typically offered a hot, steaming plate of nothing.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:14 am
by estefanchanning
Anonymous User wrote:With the GPA stated in the subject title, what would my options be to transfer to:

BC
BU
Harvard
Yale
UNH

The 1L curve at my current school is about a 2.5 to a 2.6. I'll look into my class rank later on. I'm not interested in practicing in BigLaw and I have a 75% scholarship and 40 minute commute right now. I'll graduate law school with roughly $33,000 in JD debt + $30,000 in undergrad debt.


For Harvard and Yale, your chances are 0%

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:52 am
by joefresh
Don't go crazy over the 509 gpa. All that really matters is class rank and current school rank. You'll probably get into Georgetown early action.

PM me before you screw this whole thing up.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:43 pm
by nrthwst4now
joefresh wrote:Don't go crazy over the 509 gpa. All that really matters is class rank and current school rank. You'll probably get into Georgetown early action.

PM me before you screw this whole thing up.


I agree rank matters, to an extent, but the only metrics that a school has to report are (1) origin school and (2) 1L GPA. So, I think it is the best indicator of one's chances. Also, many schools don't even give out 1L rank until the end of the year so couldnt help much for GULC EA.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:35 pm
by Ozbert
nrthwst4now wrote:
joefresh wrote:Don't go crazy over the 509 gpa. All that really matters is class rank and current school rank. You'll probably get into Georgetown early action.

PM me before you screw this whole thing up.


I agree rank matters, to an extent, but the only metrics that a school has to report are (1) origin school and (2) 1L GPA. So, I think it is the best indicator of one's chances. Also, many schools don't even give out 1L rank until the end of the year so couldnt help much for GULC EA.


I agree, some schools don't even report a class rank for 1Ls or only do so within certain percentages. I don't think class rank counts for nothing, but neither does the GPA. The reason for the 2.6 curve might even be just to suppress transferring...which suggests GPA (and not just class rank) plays a part...or so OP's school thinks anyway.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:27 pm
by joefresh
^all this considered (I could be wrong), I still recommend OP apply to more T14 schools.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:42 pm
by Ozbert
joefresh wrote:^all this considered (I could be wrong), I still recommend OP apply to more T14 schools.


Concur. Why not Columbia or NYU?...especially if you’re planning on wasting the application fee at Y.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:01 am
by Anonymous User
joefresh wrote:Don't go crazy over the 509 gpa. All that really matters is class rank and current school rank. You'll probably get into Georgetown early action.

PM me before you screw this whole thing up.


PM inbound :)

Ozbert wrote:Concur. Why not Columbia or NYU?...especially if you’re planning on wasting the application fee at Y.


Basically I have a comfortable living situation within driving distance of the law schools I mentioned. UNH is the exception, however I have a lot of connections in NH (Edit: I have no intention of actually attending UNH; merely bargaining chip). I don't need loan money to pay for housing/living expenses right now and my current law school commute lets me have a reasonable life.

Living in NYC (or Chicago, or CA) would be a significant financial burden on myself and my family, and I'm really not comfortable with the idea of living in NYC on loan money. Commuting to Boston/Newton/Cambridge would be more expensive than what I'm doing now, but is practical.

I also have a LSAC fee waiver. I probably won't apply to H+Y unless I appear to be high up in class rank (I'll check that today).

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:55 am
by Anonymous User
nrthwst4now wrote:
joefresh wrote:Don't go crazy over the 509 gpa. All that really matters is class rank and current school rank. You'll probably get into Georgetown early action.

PM me before you screw this whole thing up.


I agree rank matters, to an extent, but the only metrics that a school has to report are (1) origin school and (2) 1L GPA. So, I think it is the best indicator of one's chances. Also, many schools don't even give out 1L rank until the end of the year so couldnt help much for GULC EA.


I just checked with the registrar and this is what my law school does.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:51 am
by Ozbert
Anonymous User wrote:
joefresh wrote:Don't go crazy over the 509 gpa. All that really matters is class rank and current school rank. You'll probably get into Georgetown early action.

PM me before you screw this whole thing up.


PM inbound :)

Ozbert wrote:Concur. Why not Columbia or NYU?...especially if you’re planning on wasting the application fee at Y.


Basically I have a comfortable living situation within driving distance of the law schools I mentioned. UNH is the exception, however I have a lot of connections in NH (Edit: I have no intention of actually attending UNH; merely bargaining chip). I don't need loan money to pay for housing/living expenses right now and my current law school commute lets me have a reasonable life.

Living in NYC (or Chicago, or CA) would be a significant financial burden on myself and my family, and I'm really not comfortable with the idea of living in NYC on loan money. Commuting to Boston/Newton/Cambridge would be more expensive than what I'm doing now, but is practical.

I also have a LSAC fee waiver. I probably won't apply to H+Y unless I appear to be high up in class rank (I'll check that today).


Sorry, tbh, when I made that comment, I misread your GPA as a 3.5. Even if your class rank is high, this GPA (while excellent under the curve at your school) will likely serve as a barrier to transferring into the upper T14. Like it was stated earlier, class rank is not reported on the 509 but GPA is reported. Hopefully JoeFresh knows something we don't and can give you better insight.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:55 am
by Traynor Brah
If you don't want to work in biglaw what do you want to do? You realize the debt you'd be taking on by transferring to one of these schools, yes? The point of transferring for most people is getting a better shot at biglaw, so if that's out, what's your motivation?

Also dw about the GPA percentiles for transfers; class rank is what's more relevant.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:18 pm
by Anonymous User
Ozbert wrote:Sorry, tbh, when I made that comment, I misread your GPA as a 3.5. Even if your class rank is high, this GPA (while excellent under the curve at your school) will likely serve as a barrier to transferring into the upper T14. Like it was stated earlier, class rank is not reported on the 509 but GPA is reported. Hopefully JoeFresh knows something we don't and can give you better insight.


That's fine, because class rank isn't reported until after spring grades are released, it would probably be in my best interest to wait until say June to complete transfer apps. BC's is open and not due until 8/1. Most of the other law schools I've been keeping an eye on aren't even available yet.

So basically just focus on doing well this semester and aim to raise my GPA to a 3.55-3.85.

Traynor Brah wrote:If you don't want to work in biglaw what do you want to do? You realize the debt you'd be taking on by transferring to one of these schools, yes? The point of transferring for most people is getting a better shot at biglaw, so if that's out, what's your motivation?

Also dw about the GPA percentiles for transfers; class rank is what's more relevant.


1) Yes, I'm quite aware of the debt. Which is why I'm not exactly in a hurry to transfer.

2) I'm mostly just curious about what is available to me for transferring options. Sort of "is it better on the other side?"

I wouldn't mind clerking at SCOTUS or a Federal circuit after graduating, or working in academia. I'll be interning at a state supreme court over the summer, so I'll learn if I enjoy the atmosphere of a court. I find criminal law the most fun (and it's tied for the class I did best in - other one was CivPro).

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:27 pm
by pancakes3
lol, chill...

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:31 pm
by Traynor Brah
Lol. Yes, I wouldn't mind clerking at scotus or being a professor either. Sorry to say but these ships already sailed for you. Most likely a fed appellate clerkship too; it doesn't seem like you understand how competitive those are.

I'd stand pat at your school unless you develop articulable and realistic goals that make transferring worth the debt (e.g. biglaw or a strong desire to work in x or y market of said school). Otherwise you'll be loading up on debt for nothing, as those goals are straight-up not attainable rn.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:51 pm
by Anonymous User
Traynor Brah wrote:Lol. Yes, I wouldn't mind clerking at scotus or being a professor either. Sorry to say but these ships already sailed for you. Most likely a fed appellate clerkship too; it doesn't seem like you understand how competitive those are.

I'd stand pat at your school unless you develop articulable and realistic goals that make transferring worth the debt (e.g. biglaw or a strong desire to work in x or y market of said school). Otherwise you'll be loading up on debt for nothing, as those goals are straight-up not attainable rn.


Edit No. 2: I have to think about whether or not I want to do BigLaw.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Traynor Brah wrote:Also dw about the GPA percentiles for transfers; class rank is what's more relevant.

FWIW, recent transfers have been pushing back on this.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:12 pm
by Anonymous User
Traynor Brah wrote:Lol. Yes, I wouldn't mind clerking at scotus or being a professor either. Sorry to say but these ships already sailed for you. Most likely a fed appellate clerkship too; it doesn't seem like you understand how competitive those are.

I'd stand pat at your school unless you develop articulable and realistic goals that make transferring worth the debt (e.g. biglaw or a strong desire to work in x or y market of said school). Otherwise you'll be loading up on debt for nothing, as those goals are straight-up not attainable rn.


So I thought about this and discussed with the fam.

What I want is my own practice. Whatever my first job is after law school, it'll be temporary. To start my own firm, I'll need anywhere between $3,500 and $150,000. Though, I suspect the $150,000 is satire.

https://www.attorneyatwork.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-start-a-new-solo-law-firm/

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=225392

One of the things that was hammered into our heads as business undergrads was that most new businesses fail due to a lack of startup capital. A law firm is just another form of business and if I open my own, I'll need a secretary, a leased office, office supplies, software, etc., etc., etc.

I really don't like the idea of working seven days a week, pretty much 365 days a year, for five to seven years. However, BigLaw would give me the opportunity to save up a ton more in cash to start a practice if I put in five to seven years (A5 salaries average around $250k, A7 around $325k - inflation may rise this in the next few years).

I want to get my GPA higher anyways. So if I end up with a 3.75ish, I'd have a much better chance to apply to most, if not all of the T14s.

The only two questions are 1) do I want to move somewhere and live off loan money; and 2) if I transfer to a T14, what are my chances of getting a BigLaw job after I graduate? For all intents and purposes, my first half of my 2L year will be just like first semester of 1L year: no GPA, no rank, no credentials.

Two other variables are if I could receive financial aid money (I have a low income, same with parents although I'm 26 now) and if loan caps laws are passed, limiting loan money to $28,500 p/year.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:17 pm
by Traynor Brah
If your goal is a solo practice you should not transfer (unless the school you're at is a true dumpster fire and doesn't have a meaningful alumni base, etc.). There's not enough to be gained for the price, and potentially a lot to be lost, assuming you go to school currently in the region/city you would most likely want to live in after.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:27 pm
by pancakes3
i don't know how you can reconcile entrepreneurship as the avenue to pursue when you don't want to work 24/7/365.

also the law that you practice in BL may not transfer to solo work.

to me, clerking on the state level seems like the ideal way to gain job skills for solo work.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:01 pm
by Anonymous User
Traynor Brah wrote:If your goal is a solo practice you should not transfer (unless the school you're at is a true dumpster fire and doesn't have a meaningful alumni base, etc.). There's not enough to be gained for the price, and potentially a lot to be lost, assuming you go to school currently in the region/city you would most likely want to live in after.


The school I'm at now isn't Arizona Summit/Valparaiso/Charlotte bad, but I could foresee it closing if they keep letting admissions standards go down and there's a recession. It's in one of two markets I'm considering. The other market, I have professional contacts in and am familiar with (I lived there for two years and did my undergrad in the state).

pancakes3 wrote:i don't know how you can reconcile entrepreneurship as the avenue to pursue when you don't want to work 24/7/365.

also the law that you practice in BL may not transfer to solo work.

to me, clerking on the state level seems like the ideal way to gain job skills for solo work.


If I'm working solo or in a small partnership, I'm working for myself. In BigLaw, you're working for someone else and taking orders from a partner, whom you may or may not get along with. I've read about great, mentoring partners and I've read about partners who chew out new associates that leave at 5pm because they have no work to do.

State-level clerking is definitely on my radar, actually.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:18 am
by TTTTescapee
This is smelling like a troll to me. 3.357 at a 2.6 median school is probably like top 20% but the guy is talking about transferring to H/Y/T14? Clerking for SCOTUS? Big law? You have a shot to schools like WUSTL/Emory/ND but even GULC is completely out of the question with your current GPA.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:28 am
by Anonymous User
TTTTescapee wrote:This is smelling like a troll to me. 3.357 at a 2.6 median school is probably like top 20% but the guy is talking about transferring to H/Y/T14? Clerking for SCOTUS? Big law? You have a shot to schools like WUSTL/Emory/ND but even GULC is completely out of the question with your current GPA.


If you look at the schools I mentioned in the OP, and from what I've said in subsequent posts, you should be able to notice a trend... They're all within a certain geographic area. I can drive to Harvard, BC, or BU from my house, or drive to a MBTA station and take the commuter rail. I can't drive to St. Louis, Georgia, or Indiana. Notice how I mentioned my commute in OP?

Going from a 3.357 to a 3.75 isn't impossible by the end of this semester. I'm not sure why you would question that.

I had never really considered BigLaw or clerking at a high level before, because I'm at a TTTT school now. I had more important, imminent things to consider.

Edit: it's not really relevant now, anyways, because Traynor and pancake make sense - transferring with the end goal of SP or a small partnership is very high risk. It can either end up great, with plenty of capital, or it could end up horribly with me owing $200k of debt and SOL.

Re: 3.357 TTTT to... what exactly?

Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:56 am
by Traynor Brah
Anonymous User wrote:
TTTTescapee wrote:Edit: it's not really relevant now, anyways, because Traynor and pancake make sense - transferring with the end goal of SP or a small partnership is very high risk. It can either end up great, with plenty of capital, or it could end up horribly with me owing $200k of debt and SOL.

We are not saying this, even. Transferring is going to mean it takes you four or five years of biglaw to break even. If you survive that and keep going, then you could save up some money to start a solo practice--not an incredible amount--but the work you would be doing in biglaw would probably have no relevance to your solo practice and you're going to be starting at close to square one. And biglaw is absolutely not a given, both with respect to whether you get an offer and then survive a sufficient amount of time to kill your debt and amass funds to support your goal.