Top Law Schools

At Fordham, top 10%, on the verge of striking out at OCI. Am I crazy for thinking about taking a year off, transferring to a different school, then trying my hand at their OCI process? I haven't looked into it much so I don't know if it's even a possibility. If it is actually possible, should I consider it?

Yes, that would be crazy and likely not an option. For starters, there would be no guarantee your results would differ next year. Start mass-mailing, if you haven't, and you'll find something.

jphiggo wrote:Yes, that would be crazy and likely not an option. For starters, there would be no guarantee your results would differ next year. Start mass-mailing, if you haven't, and you'll find something.

I already mass mailed and nothing has materialized. I'm doing work for the next wave of OCI but most of the jobs that are left really suck.

Anonymous User wrote:

jphiggo wrote:Yes, that would be crazy and likely not an option. For starters, there would be no guarantee your results would differ next year. Start mass-mailing, if you haven't, and you'll find something.

I already mass mailed and nothing has materialized. I'm doing work for the next wave of OCI but most of the jobs that are left really suck.

This feels a bit premature, considering where the process is at right now. Schools are just finishing up OCI, CBs have gone out, and offers are being made to be sure, but the entire hiring season will last for another couple months easily. You have the credentials to get a look in NYC, so just keep pressing on the NYC firms and hope that openings develop because offers are turned down, etc.

Have you made sure your materials are the best they can be, and have you done enough interviewing to be confident in your interviewing abilities? To me, you're much better off playing the long game in the 2L SA job application cycle than you would be trying a risky ploy that relies on transferring and getting another shot at OCI.

Also, what do you consider as "jobs that really suck?"

I'm no expert, but I don't think that's a good option. If you are set on big law, I think landing a good clerkship would be a better bet. You might have to live in the middle of nowhere for a year, but I would think top 10% at Fordham could land a fed clerkship.

seems like if you're top 10% at fordham and on the verge of striking out, you should brush up your interviewing skills?

perfunctory wrote:seems like if you're top 10% at fordham and on the verge of striking out, you should brush up your interviewing skills?

I've done mock interviews, practiced a bunch of times, gotten feedback from people I've interviewed with in the past.

I can be inconsistent but it's not so bad to get only a couple callbacks out of almost twenty screeners. I didn't think so anyway.

UVA2B wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

jphiggo wrote:Yes, that would be crazy and likely not an option. For starters, there would be no guarantee your results would differ next year. Start mass-mailing, if you haven't, and you'll find something.

I already mass mailed and nothing has materialized. I'm doing work for the next wave of OCI but most of the jobs that are left really suck.

This feels a bit premature, considering where the process is at right now. Schools are just finishing up OCI, CBs have gone out, and offers are being made to be sure, but the entire hiring season will last for another couple months easily. You have the credentials to get a look in NYC, so just keep pressing on the NYC firms and hope that openings develop because offers are turned down, etc.

Have you made sure your materials are the best they can be, and have you done enough interviewing to be confident in your interviewing abilities? To me, you're much better off playing the long game in the 2L SA job application cycle than you would be trying a risky ploy that relies on transferring and getting another shot at OCI.

Also, what do you consider as "jobs that really suck?"

As far as jobs go, there are a couple decent ones but they only extend a couple offers between them. Most jobs are at firms that are generously described as midlaw. There are some minor state government jobs, some nonprofits but there aren't many employers at all.

I can tweak my resume a bit but everybody I've had go over it likes it. I have a new writing sample that wasn't available during OCIs but that's the only major change.

My interviewing abilities need work but they're not a compete liability. It's more inconsistency than anything else. I've done mock interviews with partners who handle OCI for their firm and they liked how I interviewed.

I guess my problem is that I think that biglaw might as well be off the table for how few slots there are available.

Anonymous User wrote:

perfunctory wrote:seems like if you're top 10% at fordham and on the verge of striking out, you should brush up your interviewing skills?

I've done mock interviews, practiced a bunch of times, gotten feedback from people I've interviewed with in the past.

I can be inconsistent but it's not so bad to get only a couple callbacks out of almost twenty screeners. I didn't think so anyway.

So have you gone on the callbacks yet?

Anonymous User wrote:

UVA2B wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

jphiggo wrote:Yes, that would be crazy and likely not an option. For starters, there would be no guarantee your results would differ next year. Start mass-mailing, if you haven't, and you'll find something.

I already mass mailed and nothing has materialized. I'm doing work for the next wave of OCI but most of the jobs that are left really suck.

This feels a bit premature, considering where the process is at right now. Schools are just finishing up OCI, CBs have gone out, and offers are being made to be sure, but the entire hiring season will last for another couple months easily. You have the credentials to get a look in NYC, so just keep pressing on the NYC firms and hope that openings develop because offers are turned down, etc.

Have you made sure your materials are the best they can be, and have you done enough interviewing to be confident in your interviewing abilities? To me, you're much better off playing the long game in the 2L SA job application cycle than you would be trying a risky ploy that relies on transferring and getting another shot at OCI.

Also, what do you consider as "jobs that really suck?"

As far as jobs go, there are a couple decent ones but they only extend a couple offers between them. Most jobs are at firms that are generously described as midlaw. There are some minor state government jobs, some nonprofits but there aren't many employers at all.

I can tweak my resume a bit but everybody I've had go over it likes it. I have a new writing sample that wasn't available during OCIs but that's the only major change.

My interviewing abilities need work but they're not a compete liability. It's more inconsistency than anything else. I've done mock interviews with partners who handle OCI for their firm and they liked how I interviewed.

I guess my problem is that I think that biglaw might as well be off the table for how few slots there are available.

From your posts it sounds like 100% of your problem is your interviewing ability. A new writing sample or a few resume tweaks is not magically going to move you from the reject to callback pile. You need to do everything you can to improve before your remaining interviews.

Take a year off and try oci again. I've seen people enroll in a joint program to extend school and get another crack at oci and do better. Oci is the most important part of law school - if you have to redo it, do it.

cavalier1138 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

perfunctory wrote:seems like if you're top 10% at fordham and on the verge of striking out, you should brush up your interviewing skills?

I've done mock interviews, practiced a bunch of times, gotten feedback from people I've interviewed with in the past.

I can be inconsistent but it's not so bad to get only a couple callbacks out of almost twenty screeners. I didn't think so anyway.

So have you gone on the callbacks yet?

Yeah. Last interview was almost two weeks ago. Only one firm hasn't gotten back to me but they don't extend many offers so I don't like my chances.

Mullens wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

UVA2B wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

jphiggo wrote:Yes, that would be crazy and likely not an option. For starters, there would be no guarantee your results would differ next year. Start mass-mailing, if you haven't, and you'll find something.

I already mass mailed and nothing has materialized. I'm doing work for the next wave of OCI but most of the jobs that are left really suck.

This feels a bit premature, considering where the process is at right now. Schools are just finishing up OCI, CBs have gone out, and offers are being made to be sure, but the entire hiring season will last for another couple months easily. You have the credentials to get a look in NYC, so just keep pressing on the NYC firms and hope that openings develop because offers are turned down, etc.

Have you made sure your materials are the best they can be, and have you done enough interviewing to be confident in your interviewing abilities? To me, you're much better off playing the long game in the 2L SA job application cycle than you would be trying a risky ploy that relies on transferring and getting another shot at OCI.

Also, what do you consider as "jobs that really suck?"

As far as jobs go, there are a couple decent ones but they only extend a couple offers between them. Most jobs are at firms that are generously described as midlaw. There are some minor state government jobs, some nonprofits but there aren't many employers at all.

I can tweak my resume a bit but everybody I've had go over it likes it. I have a new writing sample that wasn't available during OCIs but that's the only major change.

My interviewing abilities need work but they're not a compete liability. It's more inconsistency than anything else. I've done mock interviews with partners who handle OCI for their firm and they liked how I interviewed.

I guess my problem is that I think that biglaw might as well be off the table for how few slots there are available.

From your posts it sounds like 100% of your problem is your interviewing ability. A new writing sample or a few resume tweaks is not magically going to move you from the reject to callback pile. You need to do everything you can to improve before your remaining interviews.

There aren't any more remaining interviews. Obviously I didn't do well enough in them but there are quite a few that I can't tell you why they weren't good enough. That's the worrying part.

Interested about this as well m. Do you know if you have to be under some extraordinary circumstances in order to take a year off?

perfunctory wrote:seems like if you're top 10% at fordham and on the verge of striking out, you should brush up your interviewing skills?

Of course. But that doesn't help me much right now. Even if I brush up on my interviewing skills, my options going forward are very limited. My main purpose of this thread is to figure out how to have as many options as possible.

Just to clarify, I'm also curious not only if this is a good decision at all, but how it will impact transfer chances. Will attempts to transfer not work because of the year off? Will it be uphill? Will the new school let me participate in OCIs?

If you actually strike out, you should sign on to do a master and redo OCI next year. No need to transfer if you don't want to.

Jchance wrote:If you actually strike out, you should sign on to do a master and redo OCI next year. No need to transfer if you don't want to.

My problem with doing a master's is that that's even more money. I'm in this situation because I'm neck deep in loans. I don't need to make it worse. I'm also not sure if that's a possibility this late.

Sorry to bump my own thread, but does anybody have any advice on the mechanism or likelihood or transferring as it pertains to taking a year off? How would that impact transferring?

I have only known one person to take a year off and then transfer (other than a joint degree program) and that person had a good reason for doing so (he was a veteran and had health issues that required taking a year off). Transferring is already tough, and I think that schools will want a pretty good reason for why you took a year off.

4 thoughts:

1. I think if I were an admissions officer, I would be hesitant to accept someone who took a year off just because they bombed OCI and want a second chance. By taking transfers, the schools are looking to increase their revenue while also not effing their graduate job numbers. Your rank and school rank notwithstanding, I would probably view your application as higher risk. So, if you do go this route, I think you'll have to be really careful how you sell yourself to the admissions committees.

2. That said, I don't think it sounds like you've bombed OCI at all. You have callbacks! Prepare and practice for those interviews. Do an honest debrief with yourself of the interviews that did not go well, and don't repeat those mistakes. Put all you can into landing a position at one of those firms! Plenty of people go to other firms besides where they summered, or lateral to another firm after a year or two of practice. If you are dead-set, 100% committed to biglaw or bust, don't be disheartened if you're not ending up at the firm you want to be long-term right away.

3. FWIW before I transferred to NYU, I got my Boston biglaw summer associate position mass-mailing. It was the firm I wanted to work for. I did not participate in OCI at either my 1L school (a school ranked similarly to Fordham where I was top 10% first semester, top 20% by end of 1L), nor did I participate in EIW at NYU when I transferred. OCI does not have to be the most important part of law school. If the callbacks don't go well, I agree with folks who say to mass-mail and seek clerkships. I also wouldn't underestimate the experience you could get in medium-sized or even small/boutique law firms.

4. You shouldn't just transfer for OCI. You have to have other compelling reasons--for yourself and your enjoyment of your remaining two years of law school. Transferring is not easy. The first semester you arrive and all the returning students already have their tight-knit cliques, but you don't know anyone and you have to make new friends. I found 2L fall as a transfer student very lonely and isolating. I transferred because NYU is strong in the area in which I wanted to specialize--I spent two years immersing in my field specialization and not only did I gain strong foundations/experience in my field, but the community came, too. It made for a satisfying and enriching two years. When I talked to others who transferred about how happy they were with their decision to transfer, only a few people were unhappy/dissatisfied. But the common thread among those few who were was that they came only for OCI/EIW. I would only transfer if you plan to make the most of the full two year experience. You'd be paying way too much money and spending way too much time to be only focused on the first month or so of it.

Edit: Re: #2, sorry just realized you did already have the callbacks. Wishing you the best with the last one to hear from and if it doesn't work out, don't lose heart. I stand by the rest of my advice.

I wouldn't underestimate clerkships. I know plenty of people who landed great jobs off of them. Sometimes it may take double clerking, but big law tends to love clerks--they tend to make better associates out of the gate than law students.

Also, I don't know what you are calling "generously described as midlaw," but 3L OCI is a very real thing, and plenty of people get great biglaw jobs out of it after having very non-biglaw 2L gigs.

Of course, recruiting season has PLENTY of time left, so I think your best bet is to continue putting one foot forward. Do a mock interview with a friend you trust (to give you honest feedback). Again, plenty of time to right the ship. I just mentioned the foregoing because life doesn't end at OCI. I've never heard of taking a year off to transfer and do OCI over. Theoretically plausible, but would take some "con-artist" ability.

Jchance wrote:If you actually strike out, you should sign on to do a master and redo OCI next year. No need to transfer if you don't want to.

That's what I'm thinking about doing. My school has an MBA program. It's not great, and it would cost money, but my interests are in corporate work anyway. I just have to determine if it's possible to get into the program now.

ghostoftraynor wrote:I wouldn't underestimate clerkships. I know plenty of people who landed great jobs off of them. Sometimes it may take double clerking, but big law tends to love clerks--they tend to make better associates out of the gate than law students.

Also, I don't know what you are calling "generously described as midlaw," but 3L OCI is a very real thing, and plenty of people get great biglaw jobs out of it after having very non-biglaw 2L gigs.

Of course, recruiting season has PLENTY of time left, so I think your best bet is to continue putting one foot forward. Do a mock interview with a friend you trust (to give you honest feedback). Again, plenty of time to right the ship. I just mentioned the foregoing because life doesn't end at OCI. I've never heard of taking a year off to transfer and do OCI over. Theoretically plausible, but would take some "con-artist" ability.

Have you seen 3L oci right now? Its a bloodbath.

sparkytrainer wrote:

ghostoftraynor wrote:I wouldn't underestimate clerkships. I know plenty of people who landed great jobs off of them. Sometimes it may take double clerking, but big law tends to love clerks--they tend to make better associates out of the gate than law students.

Also, I don't know what you are calling "generously described as midlaw," but 3L OCI is a very real thing, and plenty of people get great biglaw jobs out of it after having very non-biglaw 2L gigs.

Of course, recruiting season has PLENTY of time left, so I think your best bet is to continue putting one foot forward. Do a mock interview with a friend you trust (to give you honest feedback). Again, plenty of time to right the ship. I just mentioned the foregoing because life doesn't end at OCI. I've never heard of taking a year off to transfer and do OCI over. Theoretically plausible, but would take some "con-artist" ability.

Have you seen 3L oci right now? Its a bloodbath.

It's going to vary every year, but even in an off year, I suspect it has a higher success rate than people who drop out, sit out a year, and then try to transfer. Certainly not a bird in hand, but OP also has other options available (as mentioned).