Best Advice Forum

[Anonymous User]

I currently attend Howard and had a decent first semester (low A in civ pro mid B in torts). However, this past spring semester has been disappointing to say the least (mid C in crim law, and low Bs in contracts, property, con law, and lrrw). I was planning on transferring to a school ranked somewhere between 40th-60th (like Tulane, Houston, Maryland, SMU). What are my chances as I have sent transfer apps to a few schools ranked in the range I mentioned and please be brutally honest (if it matters I'm an AA male)? Is there any other advice one would give if transferring is out of the question... and what would you advise going forward for me to be successful beyond the obvious (get better grades, study more, talk more to profs about how they like exams written, etc.).

I am interested in energy law and international law, and also enjoyed my con law class despite my low grade. Generally, I like things tech related but have been hearing how competitive tech related legal jobs can be and am not quite sure how to break into the field.
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As an FYI many people ask what is my problem with Howard. My main problem is that I am just not a fan of our profs. Some are outstanding, but many (and most) imo are just sub-par or even just flat out poor. I worry about passing the bar considering that some of our professors simply don't teach. In my mind, I would imagine there are bad profs everywhere, but I am under the impression (admittedly I may be wrong) that higher ranked schools have better profs and (some may argue better students too) and that this is a big reason their bar passage rate is superior.

[the85bears]

I can't estimate your transfer options as well as some of the forum users here, but I think if you really want to leave, it's worth it to apply and see what happens. If you haven't, look up the ABA 509 reports for the schools you're interested in and compare with your GPA for a rough idea of what's possible.

As for general advice, don't let bad grades or bad professors take away from your enjoyment of learning. School isn't just a launching pad for obtaining a certain type of career or level of income. It's also a place for self-discovery and broader personal development. If you're really interested in energy law and international law, you're already in a great location to meet people practicing in those fields. If I were you, I would try to complement my studying with extra- and co-curricular activities that were relevant to my interests. Try participating more in student organizations and professional associations. When you get excited about something, the rest (earning a certain grade, finding a certain job) becomes less difficult. This might not be good advice for everyone because everyone is different, but it helped me change course in undergrad, and it's my general approach to law school where I am doing well.

Good luck to you.

[Anonymous User]

Hopefully someone will comment on the likelihood that I get into a school like University of Houston for example. I appreciate the words of advice from "the85bears." However, the reality is that where you graduate from matters a great deal. I would be happy finishing a law degree at a school that was within the top 100, but I'm not so enthused about graduating from Howard. There seems to be an attitude that certain things don't matter (like professors that cover relevant material), but as a former teacher I don't take poor instruction lightly. In addition, I feel a bit cheated in some classes as I studied very hard throughout the semester and received results that were clearly below or at the mean. It makes little sense. As someone from a decent undergraduate institution (UT Austin) who studied economics and did well, I find it a bit hard to believe that certain folks did better than me. Maybe thats just how law school is, but I am not buying it. Again, hopefully someone can speak to the chances or likelihood that a transfer works out in my favor.

[lavarman84]

There's just not going to be a lot of info here on the schools you're targeting. You can take a look at the GPAs listed in the 509 reports here:
http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/

They might be somewhat helpful.(as the previous poster mentioned) That's likely the best we're going to be able to offer you.

Additionally, I feel the need to tell you that you should dial the arrogance and bitterness back a tad. A lot of people in law school work hard and study hard. You don't get an A for working hard and studying hard. There's a curve. I know you think that you're smarter than most of your classmates, but that might not be the case. At minimum, they might be better than you at taking law school exams.

To address a couple other points, there are plenty of bad professors as you go up the rankings. The higher bar passage scores come from having better students on average. How can you do better in law school? That's a tough question to answer. I recommend figuring out what you did wrong on the law school exams and fixing that issue. Just remember that the exam is the point of each class. Learn how to tailor your answers to professors.

Also, organize your answers well. That's one of the biggest thing a person can do to improve performance. Use headings. Split up your paragraphs to avoid walls of text. Organize your answers in a coherent, logical manner. Make it easy for the professor to read and understand. A lot of people who struggle just tend to word vomit answers and ramble. Being able to state the black letter law isn't enough. You have to be able to apply it to the facts and organize your answer clearly.

As for transferring, that's a personal decision. I don't know enough about your circumstances to be able to offer any useful advice. Keep in mind that rankings don't matter that much outside of the t13/15 schools. It's all about where you want to work and employment data. Focus on going to a school in a region where you want to work with good employment numbers if you want to transfer.

[Anonymous User]

Not quite sure why the last person who commented felt that I was being arrogant. I definitely disagree with that person's characterization of my comments. I understand that in law school smart people may struggle. I was fully aware of that before I came to law school and that's not why I take issue with my exams. In addition, I do not think I am inherently superior to my classmates, but I am confident that my performance was better than the scores I received. The advice that was discussed was nothing new as I have implemented those tips (organization, headings, etc.) from day 1. I have done multiple practice exams and brought them to professors and gotten their approval of my writing style as well.

Nevertheless, I am humble and realize that even these practices do not guarantee a good or even decent exam score. Clearly, there was something that I did wrong and or differently than others who scored higher. I have also discussed this with my classmates and many agree that there is something inconsistent with how our exams are graded in certain classes.

On another note, I'm not quite sure folks understand how poor our instruction has been in certain classes. For example, we went through an entire semester in civil procedure with little discussion of personal jurisdiction and subject matter jurisdiction. How do you teach civ pro without covering these areas? The crazy thing is I actually like my civ pro professor and did well in his class, but I have to say that not teaching those areas was a great oversight on his part. This in my opinion is why we struggle on the bar. I don't think students from other law schools are necessarily smarter as I have had my fair share of conversations and had time to review the legal writing of folks from T14 schools. However, I do think higher ranked schools provide better instruction and that this is the reason for better bar passage rates. That being said, that's just my opinion, and I definitely could be wrong.

Overall, the point of the original post was to see if there were any individuals who could make a prediction on the likelihood of a transfer based on their own first hand experiences (assuming they were coming from a similarly ranked school to a top 50ish school).

[lavarman84]

Not quite sure why the last person who commented felt that I was being arrogant. I definitely disagree with that person's characterization of my comments. I understand that in law school smart people may struggle. I was fully aware of that before I came to law school and that's not why I take issue with my exams. In addition, I do not think I am inherently superior to my classmates, but I am confident that my performance was better than the scores I received. The advice that was discussed was nothing new as I have implemented those tips (organization, headings, etc.) from day 1. I have done multiple practice exams and brought them to professors and gotten their approval of my writing style as well.

Nevertheless, I am humble and realize that even these practices do not guarantee a good or even decent exam score. Clearly, there was something that I did wrong and or differently than others who scored higher. I have also discussed this with my classmates and many agree that there is something inconsistent with how our exams are graded in certain classes.

You certainly aren't coming off as humble. Read your post:

In addition, I feel a bit cheated in some classes as I studied very hard throughout the semester and received results that were clearly below or at the mean. It makes little sense. As someone from a decent undergraduate institution (UT Austin) who studied economics and did well, I find it a bit hard to believe that certain folks did better than me. Maybe thats just how law school is, but I am not buying it. Again, hopefully someone can speak to the chances or likelihood that a transfer works out in my favor.

You feel cheated because you worked hard but received grades that were at the median or below it. You find it hard to believe you're capable of deserving median or below-median grades because you did well at a good school, and you think you're smarter than folks who did better than you.

None of that comes off as humble. All of that comes off as arrogant. It doesn't come off as you accepting responsibility for your grades. It comes off as you believing you deserve better grades because you worked hard and are smart.

It's no surprise that your classmates believe there is something inconsistent with how exams are graded. It's a subjective grade on a curve. It is going to be somewhat inconsistent. Moreover, people who have achieved their entire lives are going to be naturally skeptical of their grades on the forced curve. Plenty of people doubt their grades at every law school. It doesn't mean you're being cheated.

On another note, I'm not quite sure folks understand how poor our instruction has been in certain classes. For example, we went through an entire semester in civil procedure with little discussion of personal jurisdiction and subject matter jurisdiction. How do you teach civ pro without covering these areas? The crazy thing is I actually like my civ pro professor and did well in his class, but I have to say that not teaching those areas was a great oversight on his part. This in my opinion is why we struggle on the bar. I don't think students from other law schools are necessarily smarter as I have had my fair share of conversations and had time to review the legal writing of folks from T14 schools. However, I do think higher ranked schools provide better instruction and that this is the reason for better bar passage rates. That being said, that's just my opinion, and I definitely could be wrong.

That sort of thing is common. Professors pick and choose what they teach. That happens at every school. It's not a bar review course. My Con Law professor didn't cover a significant amount of material that's on the bar.

Students at better law schools are smarter on average. Top law schools certainly aren't doing a better job of covering bar material than lower-ranked law schools. In fact, I expect it's the opposite.

Overall, the point of the original post was to see if there were any individuals who could make a prediction on the likelihood of a transfer based on their own first hand experiences (assuming they were coming from a similarly ranked school to a top 50ish school).

Like I said, that's going to be hard to find. But I expect those people would tell you not to focus on rankings. Focus on where you want to live and then look for the schools that are strong in that region.

Look, man, I'm not posting to insult you or fight with you. I'm telling you that some self-awareness is a good idea. You're going to run into arbitrary and subjective grades at every law school. Unless you're one of the top students, your grades aren't going to be consistent. You're not being cheated. That's simply the nature of a forced curve when the majority of your classmates are similarly smart and hard-working. The things you take issue with at Howard aren't going to go away at a T1 school. Things will be better as a 2L and 3L because you can select your own classes (which means that you can pick easier classes or classes with better curves or classes with professors whom you just get).

However, there are good reasons to transfer. I'm not trying to talk you out of transferring. It might be the right move for you. You'll find out whether you got in or not soon. From there, you'll have to make the decision if transferring aligns with your goals.

[Lawstudent3000]

putting aside all the other stuff, fact is, choose a school where you can see yourself settling down for some time. GULC and the rest of the T14 are generally considered more national schools. Almost everything below that will be super regional. The further up you go in ranking, the more regional it gets.

At the T1 level, go where you would like to live. Really as simple as that. As far as transferring, that depends on your current scholly + goals. I'm transferring to GULC in the fall, so I'm pretty pro-transfer, but make sure you will not be too debt ridden and will be at a law school, in a place that you actually like.

Good luck.

P.S. Just to weigh in, while the profs are maybe a little better at T15 schools, it's mostly that these schools are picking from the best students in the 80+ percentile of the LSAT and undergrad GPA. Is it surprising they have 80%+ bar pass rate?

[Anonymous User]

Again, I still don't see where the "arrogant" remark is coming from. A person is not arrogant by stating he or she feels cheated after having invested a lot of time and energy in an endeavor. That is simply your perception which you have every right to have, but it is incorrect. First, the comment was not literal. Even though I do feel there are some discrepancies in law school grading, I do not feel there was a specific plan to unfairly grade my exams. My issues with law school grading and professors are more critical of the organization of the American legal education curriculum and the lack of awareness many law professors have for effective pedagogy. I have done research on these issues and this is the basis for many of my views. Perhaps, I did not explain my initial comments and for that I apologize.

I appreciate your advice lavarman84 but most of what you said is general law school knowledge. There were a lot of other things you stated which I just don't have the time to address because they are inconsequential to the original question.

The initial person who commented on the post was helpful, but I still have not come across anyone (outside of my closed circle) who can speak first-hand about transferring from a similarly ranked school (Howard) to a school in the top 50’s. There are plenty of people who make these types of jumps (from second or third tier schools to schools in the top 50’s) so I know they are out there. I'm just trying to get as much input as possible to better gauge my chances.

[tedler]

I don't agree with lavar on anything ever, but you definitely sound arrogant. You feel cheated because you worked hard and got slapped with median grades, but you're on a curve with a bunch of other people who work hard as well. You act entitled to above average grades because of where you went to undergrad. None of that is a good look.

That aside, if you want to provide your GPA, class rank, where you sent in apps, and where you want to end up, we can make some predictions/suggestions. Are you getting any $ from Howard?

[TheSpanishMain]

Yeah, you definitely sound a little full of yourself. Law school grades are unpredictable, and when you take a bunch of people with similar GPAs and LSAT scores and put them on a forced curve, you're going to have some grades that feel very arbitrary. The difference between a B+ and an A- can be tiny. You aren't owed a particular grade because you worked hard. Presumably everyone worked hard. Or they're just better at taking law school exams than you are. Or they just had a good day and you had an off day. Could be lots of things.

I also don't think your profs are slacking because they're not teaching you everything that's going to be on the bar. If anything, higher ranked schools are less likely to teach to the bar than lower ranked schools.

Anyway, to your actual question: I think you need to decide where you want to live and what sort of job you're hoping to get. Like, you shouldn't be considering both Maryland and Houston. Once you get outside of the T13, schools are regional and USNWR rankings mean very little. If your goal is to get a job in Texas, Houston is better than Maryland even though it's ranked slightly lower. Don't get obsessed with how some supermarket checkout lane magazine ranks a school. Look at employment stats for the area you want to live and base your strategy around that.

[Anonymous User]

My comments were not meant to be arrogant but everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. After reviewing my comments, I can understand why you guys may sense some arrogance. Nevertheless, I maintain that there are discrepancies in the manner exams are graded at Howard. I understand you all may disagree, but just as you are entitled to your opinion, so am I entitled to an opinion.

I have specific reasons for applying to the schools I listed. In particular, both U of Houston and U of Maryland are in regions that are desirable to me and have strengths in certain practice areas.

I was able to discuss my specific situation with a couple of transfer students earlier today. They were very honest with me concerning my chances. I’ll take their advice and the comments from this forum into consideration when analyzing my available options.

I appreciate everyone who took the time to share his/her thoughts. It always helps to get different perspectives before making a final decision.