T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go? Forum
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T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
- jkpolk
- Posts: 1236
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Can you sandbag on Columbia until you hear from the v10? If you get the SA, tell Columbia to fuck off.Anonymous User wrote:Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
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- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Not sure, honestly. So your thinking is: if i get the v10 SA I should stay at my current school, what if it was v30? v50? v100?jkpolk wrote:Can you sandbag on Columbia until you hear from the v10? If you get the SA, tell Columbia to fuck off.Anonymous User wrote:Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
- quiver
- Posts: 977
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Is biglaw your only goal? In NY? What do you want to do long term? How well does your NY TTT place the top 1-2%?quiver wrote:Many people in this forum usually just say "I got into X school, should I transfer?" That is obviously not enough info to get helpful feedback. I noticed that the choosing law school forum has certain guidelines to address this concern, and I thought this forum may benefit from the same. In that vein, those seeking advise on transferring should provide:
-Your current law school (or as specific a range as possible) and the total debt at graduation if you were to stay (debt = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships - financing from sources other than loans.)
-The transfer schools you are considering and the total debt at each, at the time of graduation, if you were to transfer there.
-Where you're from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any).
-The type of job you are seeking directly following law school as well as your longer-term career goals.
-If you provided a range rather than your specific current law school, an assessment of how well your current school places graduates into your target market and your target jobs.
-Any other personal factors that may influence your decision (eg: being close to family, needing a market where your significant other can find a job, etc.)
I'm happy to take suggestions on other items to add to the list. As a former transfer, I'm also happy to give my two cents on transfer decisions, both in this thread and via PM.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
I am in the same position as you from a lower ranked T1. Set to graduate debt-free with pretty much a guaranteed job at a V50 (and likely regional office of a V10) through my school's OCI, as well as 13 interviews (several with V20 NYC firms), that I got through various recruiting programs. In the end, I thought long and hard about how much a degree is worth and decided a Columbia degree is well worth the 200k investment (as long as you take school seriously and continue to do your best, which I'm sure won't be an issue for you). Sure, you may be able to land a V10 SA spot from your current school and parlay that into your first post-law school job, but if you ever want to stop doing that (and many associates do), you'd still be in a pretty tough spot trying to move laterally to top firms or in-house positions. Your gpa and class rank will disappear from your resume in a few years and all there will be left is the name of your law school. The Columbia name will get a MUCH more favorable response than your current school and open up opportunities that you will NOT have access to coming from where you are now. The same goes for me and anyone else not at a T10 school.Anonymous User wrote:Not sure, honestly. So your thinking is: if i get the v10 SA I should stay at my current school, what if it was v30? v50? v100?jkpolk wrote:Can you sandbag on Columbia until you hear from the v10? If you get the SA, tell Columbia to fuck off.Anonymous User wrote:Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
Also, would you have gone to Columbia if they had accepted you as a first-year and offered you about 25k a year? You'll be in that same position now debt-wise.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
If it's anything lower than a V17, you should transfer.Anonymous User wrote:Not sure, honestly. So your thinking is: if i get the v10 SA I should stay at my current school, what if it was v30? v50? v100?jkpolk wrote:Can you sandbag on Columbia until you hear from the v10? If you get the SA, tell Columbia to fuck off.Anonymous User wrote:Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
Being serious, don't base your decisions on Vault rankings.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
I have to strongly disagree with this poster. Do not spend $200,000 for a name on your resume. Once you get to the point in your career where your GPA and class rank do not matter, your work experience, competency, and network will be the most important things for your career.ilikechocolate wrote:I am in the same position as you from a lower ranked T1. Set to graduate debt-free with pretty much a guaranteed job at a V50 (and likely regional office of a V10) through my school's OCI, as well as 13 interviews (several with V20 NYC firms), that I got through various recruiting programs. In the end, I thought long and hard about how much a degree is worth and decided a Columbia degree is well worth the 200k investment (as long as you take school seriously and continue to do your best, which I'm sure won't be an issue for you). Sure, you may be able to land a V10 SA spot from your current school and parlay that into your first post-law school job, but if you ever want to stop doing that (and many associates do), you'd still be in a pretty tough spot trying to move laterally to top firms or in-house positions. Your gpa and class rank will disappear from your resume in a few years and all there will be left is the name of your law school. The Columbia name will get a MUCH more favorable response than your current school and open up opportunities that you will NOT have access to coming from where you are now. The same goes for me and anyone else not at a T10 school.Anonymous User wrote:Not sure, honestly. So your thinking is: if i get the v10 SA I should stay at my current school, what if it was v30? v50? v100?jkpolk wrote:Can you sandbag on Columbia until you hear from the v10? If you get the SA, tell Columbia to fuck off.Anonymous User wrote:Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
Also, would you have gone to Columbia if they had accepted you as a first-year and offered you about 25k a year? You'll be in that same position now debt-wise.
And frankly, if you make it to that point as a biglaw lawyer, you'll be feeling pretty darn good making that biglaw salary for all those years after graduating with only $30,000 in debt instead of $200,000. And if you hate biglaw, it'll be much easier to get out if you graduate with only $30,000 in debt.
I agree with the poster earlier in this thread. If you can hold Columbia off until you get an offer, that is ideal.
Last edited by lavarman84 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
This is horrible advice. The relevance of your school name diminishes after your first job, but your debt doesn't. CLS is not worth 200k, especially under the terms you put it in which you would get a v10 either way. Seriously, in what world would getting the same job but with an additional 200k be a better outcome? (ilikechocolate: you, too, should consider not transferring if you're guaranteed a 6 figure paying job without debt! Your position runs counter to almost all conventional wisdom shared here on tls.)ilikechocolate wrote:I am in the same position as you from a lower ranked T1. Set to graduate debt-free with pretty much a guaranteed job at a V50 (and likely regional office of a V10) through my school's OCI, as well as 13 interviews (several with V20 NYC firms), that I got through various recruiting programs. In the end, I thought long and hard about how much a degree is worth and decided a Columbia degree is well worth the 200k investment (as long as you take school seriously and continue to do your best, which I'm sure won't be an issue for you). Sure, you may be able to land a V10 SA spot from your current school and parlay that into your first post-law school job, but if you ever want to stop doing that (and many associates do), you'd still be in a pretty tough spot trying to move laterally to top firms or in-house positions. Your gpa and class rank will disappear from your resume in a few years and all there will be left is the name of your law school. The Columbia name will get a MUCH more favorable response than your current school and open up opportunities that you will NOT have access to coming from where you are now. The same goes for me and anyone else not at a T10 school.Anonymous User wrote:Not sure, honestly. So your thinking is: if i get the v10 SA I should stay at my current school, what if it was v30? v50? v100?jkpolk wrote:Can you sandbag on Columbia until you hear from the v10? If you get the SA, tell Columbia to fuck off.Anonymous User wrote:Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
Also, would you have gone to Columbia if they had accepted you as a first-year and offered you about 25k a year? You'll be in that same position now debt-wise.
OP, if your goal is NY biglaw and can get it from your current school, then that's your best choice -- at least, financially speaking. If biglaw is not feasible from your school with your stats, then consider a transfer.
Last edited by sflyr2016 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- jkpolk
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
lol not saying you should stay because you got a good vault firm. I'm saying you should stay because you got your desired outcome and didn't have to pay 200k for it.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Look, each person has their own opinion on what constitutes a good investment and depending on what people want to do, a 200k legal education will not always be worth it. And while I don't disagree with you that your competency as an attorney and your network play a huge role in your opportunities down the road, it's hard to prove that your competency exceeds that of grads from top schools when all you're doing is legal research and brief writing as a 4th or 5th year associate. And while it's not impossible to get highly competitive jobs having graduated from a non-highly ranked school, it's certainly a lot more difficult than it otherwise would be with a degree from Columbia. That being said, I don't think going to Columbia is going to make him/her a less competent attorney than they would have been. If they continue to work hard, the degree will certainly help them and will pay dividends in the long-term in terms of greater opportunities and access to a wider market. If that's not what they are interested in and plan on phoning it in once they get there, then it's wise to stay where they are at.lawman84 wrote:I have to strongly disagree with this poster. Do not spend $200,000 for a name on your resume. Once you get to the point in your career where your GPA and class rank do not matter, your work experience, competency, and network will be the most important things for your career.ilikechocolate wrote:I am in the same position as you from a lower ranked T1. Set to graduate debt-free with pretty much a guaranteed job at a V50 (and likely regional office of a V10) through my school's OCI, as well as 13 interviews (several with V20 NYC firms), that I got through various recruiting programs. In the end, I thought long and hard about how much a degree is worth and decided a Columbia degree is well worth the 200k investment (as long as you take school seriously and continue to do your best, which I'm sure won't be an issue for you). Sure, you may be able to land a V10 SA spot from your current school and parlay that into your first post-law school job, but if you ever want to stop doing that (and many associates do), you'd still be in a pretty tough spot trying to move laterally to top firms or in-house positions. Your gpa and class rank will disappear from your resume in a few years and all there will be left is the name of your law school. The Columbia name will get a MUCH more favorable response than your current school and open up opportunities that you will NOT have access to coming from where you are now. The same goes for me and anyone else not at a T10 school.Anonymous User wrote:Not sure, honestly. So your thinking is: if i get the v10 SA I should stay at my current school, what if it was v30? v50? v100?jkpolk wrote:Can you sandbag on Columbia until you hear from the v10? If you get the SA, tell Columbia to fuck off.Anonymous User wrote:Hello everyone.
I was hoping I could get some opinions on what I should do. I am currently attending a T3 in NY, but was accepted to Columbia as a transfer student. I was wondering what everyone thinks I should do. Below is some information about my situation:
NY T3
Top 1-2%
Full Scholarship
LR
I have a TA position lined up for next year
Other extracurriculars
COA over the next two years: 30k
I presume Columbia would run me about 200k over the next two years.
Also, I have a v10 callback and a v50 screener that I was able to receive from my initial mass mailing efforts.
What should I do? Appreciate all the help!
Also, would you have gone to Columbia if they had accepted you as a first-year and offered you about 25k a year? You'll be in that same position now debt-wise.
And frankly, if you make it to that point as a biglaw lawyer, you'll be feeling pretty darn good making that biglaw salary for all those years after graduating with only $20,000 in debt instead of $200,000. And if you hate biglaw, it'll be much easier to get out if you graduate with only $20,000 in debt.
I agree with the poster earlier in this thread. If you can hold Columbia off until you get an offer, that is ideal.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
There's definitely an element of truth to this. But we're talking $200,000 here. If he gets to be a 4th or 5th year associate at a great firm and is a quality lawyer, he'll have plenty of doors open for him. The Columbia name won't be worth $200,000 in this scenario.ilikechocolate wrote:And while I don't disagree with you that your competency as an attorney and your network play a huge role in your opportunities down the road, it's hard to prove that your competency exceeds that of grads from top schools when all you're doing is legal research and brief writing as a 4th or 5th year associate. And while it's not impossible to get highly competitive jobs having graduated from a non-highly ranked school, it's certainly a lot more difficult than it otherwise would be with a degree from Columbia.
Now, if he isn't sure he'll get biglaw where he's at (and he wants biglaw), transferring might be worth it.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
OP here. BigLaw aspirations. 4-5 years max and out. The way I am thinking about it is, either pay 200k for Columbia and spend first 2-3 years paying that off, or, hopefully, get BigLaw at current school, save up all the money I make, and then exit. Who knows, maybe I get on partner track and that all changes . . . I don't know what else to say, besides, I'm not sure what I want to do.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Go to Columbia. This isn't even a question.
There is no legitimate reason to stay at a bad school. The currency of this industry is prestige and you are closing yourself off to a world of opportunities by having a crappy school on your resume. This is an industry where unicorn positions exist and aren't as uncommon as you'd otherwise think. I know people with legal jobs that get paid $600k per year for 20 hours a week of work with degrees from schools like Columbia. I know countless in-house attorneys whose net compensation is $400k per year all-in with degrees from schools like Columbia. Despite all the negativity on this board, these are not unusual outcomes for people with a V10 biglaw job plus a few years experience and a nice law school on their resume.
You know what I've never seen, though? I've never seen anyone get a job like that with a degree from Cardozo or St. John's. This industry is a guild. Degrees from top schools create the presumption that you are a highly competent person. Having a top law firm job even for a few years might remove the presumption of incompetence that comes from attending a bad school, but it is still difficult to justify hiring a person with that on their resume over someone who has that same law firm job and the nice school.
Your decision to foreclose the upside on your career.
There is no legitimate reason to stay at a bad school. The currency of this industry is prestige and you are closing yourself off to a world of opportunities by having a crappy school on your resume. This is an industry where unicorn positions exist and aren't as uncommon as you'd otherwise think. I know people with legal jobs that get paid $600k per year for 20 hours a week of work with degrees from schools like Columbia. I know countless in-house attorneys whose net compensation is $400k per year all-in with degrees from schools like Columbia. Despite all the negativity on this board, these are not unusual outcomes for people with a V10 biglaw job plus a few years experience and a nice law school on their resume.
You know what I've never seen, though? I've never seen anyone get a job like that with a degree from Cardozo or St. John's. This industry is a guild. Degrees from top schools create the presumption that you are a highly competent person. Having a top law firm job even for a few years might remove the presumption of incompetence that comes from attending a bad school, but it is still difficult to justify hiring a person with that on their resume over someone who has that same law firm job and the nice school.
Your decision to foreclose the upside on your career.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Then you aren't looking around. I met an attorney who has the unicorn job that I want, and he graduated from Hofstra. It's easier to get a unicorn job from a better school, but that's not saying much.plurilingue wrote:Go to Columbia. This isn't even a question.
There is no legitimate reason to stay at a bad school. The currency of this industry is prestige and you are closing yourself off to a world of opportunities by having a crappy school on your resume. This is an industry where unicorn positions exist and aren't as uncommon as you'd otherwise think. I know people with legal jobs that get paid $600k per year for 20 hours a week of work with degrees from schools like Columbia. I know countless in-house SV attorneys whose net compensation is $400k per year all-in with degrees from schools like Columbia. Despite all the negativity on this board, these are not unusual outcomes for people with a V10 biglaw job plus a few years experience and a nice law school on their resume.
You know what I've never seen, though? I've never seen anyone get a job like that with a degree from Cardozo or St. John's. This industry is a guild. Degrees from top schools create the presumption that you are a highly competent person. Having a top law firm job even for a few years might remove the presumption of incompetence that comes from attending a bad school, but it is still difficult to justify hiring a person with that on their resume over someone who has that same law firm job and the nice school.
Your decision to foreclose the upside on your career.
You don't make a decision like this for a minuscule chance at a unicorn job.
There are very few opportunities that he is closing himself off to.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
The advice given in this thread makes no sense.
Find out whether you can get biglaw from your current school. If you can, then stay if you want to work in NY. If you want to do biglaw elsewhere, then transfer. And if you really don't want to practice biglaw for long, then definitely do not add more debt.
The CLS name will probably impress your mom and dad's friends at the neighborhood barbeque. But it won't impress a single lawyer at a large law firm -- especially one at a v10. If your current school gets you ny biglaw, then the only thing cls will buy you is a chance to interview with firms outside of ny. But if you don't want that, then don't waste your money.
Find out whether you can get biglaw from your current school. If you can, then stay if you want to work in NY. If you want to do biglaw elsewhere, then transfer. And if you really don't want to practice biglaw for long, then definitely do not add more debt.
The CLS name will probably impress your mom and dad's friends at the neighborhood barbeque. But it won't impress a single lawyer at a large law firm -- especially one at a v10. If your current school gets you ny biglaw, then the only thing cls will buy you is a chance to interview with firms outside of ny. But if you don't want that, then don't waste your money.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
I very strongly disagree with the two posters above.
http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ran ... -pedigree/
I work at a V10, and people at my firm openly and regularly trash associates who have non-conforming credentials and resumes in casual discussion. It is an unfortunate but very real fact of life that what we are selling in this industry is prestige to our clients. The very fact that the above ranking exists should tell you how single-minded the most elite firms in this industry are. What this data should make clear is that many of the very best New York firms very strongly prefer to hire median (and possibly below median) at CLS/NYU than a relatively well-ranked candidate from even GULC or UCLA. Why would you close yourself to that world?
I also believe that people with stronger law school backgrounds attain materially better exit options with regularity.
I strongly encourage the OP to go to the highest ranked law school possible.
http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ran ... -pedigree/
I work at a V10, and people at my firm openly and regularly trash associates who have non-conforming credentials and resumes in casual discussion. It is an unfortunate but very real fact of life that what we are selling in this industry is prestige to our clients. The very fact that the above ranking exists should tell you how single-minded the most elite firms in this industry are. What this data should make clear is that many of the very best New York firms very strongly prefer to hire median (and possibly below median) at CLS/NYU than a relatively well-ranked candidate from even GULC or UCLA. Why would you close yourself to that world?
I also believe that people with stronger law school backgrounds attain materially better exit options with regularity.
I strongly encourage the OP to go to the highest ranked law school possible.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Yes op, pay 200k more for the same job and, more importantly, so that you are never "openly trashed" for having graduated at the top of your class in law school. Definitely the smart choice.
lol.
lol.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
He's top of his class at his school already. The advice in this thread is that if he gets an offer from a biglaw firm, there's no good reason to transfer. The bolded reasoning does nothing to contradict that advice.plurilingue wrote:I very strongly disagree with the two posters above.
http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-ran ... -pedigree/
The very fact that the above ranking exists should tell you how single-minded the most elite firms in this industry are. What this data should make clear is that many of the very best New York firms very strongly prefer to hire median (and possibly below median) at CLS/NYU than a relatively well-ranked candidate from even GULC or UCLA. Why would you close yourself to that world?
I strongly encourage the OP to go to the highest ranked law school possible.
No, what we sell in this industry is a service. A service that often involves cleaning up other people's messes. In fact, this prestige argument you're selling seems like a loser when one evaluates the data:I work at a V10, and people at my firm openly and regularly trash associates who have non-conforming credentials and resumes in casual discussion. It is an unfortunate but very real fact of life that what we are selling in this industry is prestige to our clients.
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... ower-tier/
Of course, the article points out why this is. You've got the cream of the crop from lower ranked schools against pretty much everybody from highly ranked schools. That all said, that's not the issue here. The advice people are giving the OP is to stay if he gets a biglaw offer he's happy with. Once he has the offer, he's got his foot in the door. And going to a lower ranked school doesn't hurt his partnership chances at all. That pretty effectively undermines your prestige argument.More specifically, associates from the top 14 schools represented 53.7 percent of those hired in 2011, but only 29.4 percent of those promoted to partnership.
But hey, I guess he could drop $200,000 to transfer to Columbia because some douchey associates might say mean things about his law school. Of course, transferring to Columbia means being around those types of douchey people for the next two years in law school.
Do we have data reflecting this? Because the partnership data shows that people from lower ranked schools are not at a statistical disadvantage.I also believe that people with stronger law school backgrounds attain materially better exit options with regularity.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
So two people w/ several years of similar experience at the same firm will have dramatically different exit outcomes based upon their JD name?plurilingue wrote:
I also believe that people with stronger law school backgrounds attain materially better exit options with regularity.
I strongly encourage the OP to go to the highest ranked law school possible.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
The quality of the firm makes an enormous difference. The data I shared, which you do not engage with, clearly shows that the most elite firms across many practice areas in New York (e.g., Cleary Gottlieb; Davis Polk; Sullivan & Cromwell; Freshfields) strongly favor candidates from schools like Columbia. You haven't provided me any evidence whatsoever that these firms, and those like it, which handle the best and most sophisticated work, are likely to consider a candidate from his current law school. Rather, the opposite appears true: they expect that people with the opportunity will transfer if they are interested in their practices.He's top of his class at his school already. The advice in this thread is that if he gets an offer from a biglaw firm, there's no good reason to transfer. The bolded reasoning does nothing to contradict that advice.
The people being promoted to partnership in 2011 entered law firms before the financial crisis and, accordingly, before a deterioration in the opportunities in the legal industry. You're comparing apple to oranges. For this argument to have any weight, you would have to show me partnership promotion figures eight to ten years from 2011, the year of the entry-level hiring you reference. My view is that the disparity is explained by the massive contraction in the number of entry level positions at law firms, from approximately 8,000 to 4,000 today. Accordingly, law firms have become even more stringent in only hiring from certain schools. See, e.g., the deterioration in hiring from schools like Fordham or UC Hastings. They have been hit most by the downturn in the legal industry. This would explain why a higher percentage of summer associates today come from top schools. And again, not all law firm positions are created equal.No, what we sell in this industry is a service. A service that often involves cleaning up other people's messes. In fact, this prestige argument you're selling seems like a loser when one evaluates the data
A big part of this is who you meet in law school and who you meet in practice. Going to a top law school and a top practice (e.g., V5/V10) will help create better exit options. This is in addition to the general benefit of being a more marketable candidate.So two people w/ several years of similar experience at the same firm will have dramatically different exit outcomes based upon their JD name?
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
These are also the types of firms who don't treat transfers like "real" Columbia students. Which is why it's common advice in here to tell people to assume they'll have the same opportunities in terms of what firms will consider them that they'd have at their old school at OCI but will have greater exposure.plurilingue wrote:The quality of the firm makes an enormous difference. The data I shared, which you do not engage with, clearly shows that the most elite firms across many practice areas in New York (e.g., Cleary Gottlieb; Davis Polk; Sullivan & Cromwell; Freshfields) strongly favor candidates from schools like Columbia. You haven't provided me any evidence whatsoever that these firms, and those like it, which handle the best and most sophisticated work, are likely to consider a candidate from his current law school. Rather, the opposite appears true: they expect that people with the opportunity will transfer if they are interested in their practices.He's top of his class at his school already. The advice in this thread is that if he gets an offer from a biglaw firm, there's no good reason to transfer. The bolded reasoning does nothing to contradict that advice.
So not a good reason for him to transfer.
Even when you take that into account, it doesn't fully explain the massive disparity. Even if we want to consider the numbers inflated, it's hard to argue that your partnership prospects are better as a t14 student. The data doesn't represent that. And if someone conducted the study again, I bet it would show the same thing. It's logical why that is. The students from lower ranked schools are better on average because of how difficult it is for them to get in. Thus, it makes sense that a higher percentage would make partner.The people being promoted to partnership were before the financial crisis and material deterioration in the quality of the legal industry. You're comparing apple to oranges. For this argument to have any weight, you would have to show me partnership promotion eight to ten years from 2011.. My view is that the disparity is explained by the massive contraction in the number of Summer Associate positions from approximately 8,000 to 4,000 today. Accordingly, law firms have become even more stringent in only hiring from certain schools. See e.g., the deterioration in hiring from schools like Fordham or UC Hastings. They have been hit most by the downturn in the legal industry.
There's no disadvantage to being from a lower ranked school when it comes to making partner. Your prestige-based anecdotes don't overrule data and logic.
Last edited by lavarman84 on Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
I graduated from C/N and I have seen many transfer students end up at these firms, including those from the schools mentioned in this thread. These firms do not go to OCI at lower-ranked schools and may not consider a candidate with a less prestigious degree in large part because it isn't what clients want to see.These are also the types of firms who don't treat transfers like "real" Columbia students. Which is why it's common advice in here to tell people to assume they'll have the same opportunities in terms of what firms will consider them that they'd have at their old school at OCI but will have greater exposure.
So not a good reason for him to transfer.
Firms shrinking summer associate classes is obviously going to change the percentages in a meaningful way. The percentage of students at GULC obtaining large law firm positions pre-recession was over twice was it is today. At UC Hastings and Fordham, it was about 35-40%; today it is 10%. Schools below the top tier have been completely decimated in hiring. This strongly explains why a majority of summer associate positions today are going to T14 candidates.No, I'm comparing apples to apples. Firms haven't changed much. They weren't promoting students from lower ranked schools before the recession for charitable purposes. That isn't going to change. And firms shrinking summer associate classes is unlikely to affect that percentage in an overly meaningful way. The fact that you have less of the weaker students from t14 schools might even the gap some, but it's not going to completely reverse it. In fact, if biglaw firms really are hiring less from lower ranked schools, it might increase the disparity.
Furthermore, apart form being old, your link doesn't provide the actual data or methodology used. Nor does it clearly state what the sampling of law firms was. My understanding is that it is referring to NLJ250 firms. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of the bottom 150 firms are the ones promoting these regional graduates that you're referring to; these are the firms where partners are paid less than senior associates at top firms. The reputable law firms that handle quality work are not promoting these individuals with any regularity. While there are some partners at V10 firms from these schools, they are very few and are often laterals. My experience is that they are even fewer than the number of partners who are HYPS UG + YSH law school partners.
Make no mistake, OP: law firms are selling the prestige of their associates' resumes to their clients. As you can see from the earlier link, it's no coincidence that by far the most profitable firm is also the most likely to hew to stringent hiring criteria.
Last edited by plurilingue on Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
I don't see a 200k reason to transfer if you want the v10 and can obtain it from your current school.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
I'm sure you can find students from lower ranked schools at these firms as well. I've seen a number of anecdotes on this site warning transfers that they may not be given a fair shake with certain firms.plurilingue wrote:I graduated from C/N and I have seen many transfer students end up at these firms, including those from the schools mentioned in this thread. These firms do not go to OCI at lower-ranked schools and may not consider a candidate with a less prestigious degree in large part because it isn't what clients want to see.
I edited the post. I read the methodology over again and see your point. But as I said, even if you account for that, it isn't going to completely reverse the numbers. In fact, it might just boost your odds of making partner from a lower ranked school.(using the methodology of BL partners from ____ class year/total number of lawyers placed in BL from _____ class year) The more difficult it is for students at lower ranked schools, the more likely that the candidates are better on average than the students from top ranked schools.Firms shrinking summer associate classes is obviously going to change the percentages in a meaningful way. The percentage of students at GULC obtaining large law firm positions pre-recession was over twice was it is today. At UC Hastings and Fordham, it was about 35-40%; today it is 10%. Schools below the top tier have been completely decimated in hiring. This strongly explains why a majority of summer associate positions today are going to T14 candidates.
Furthermore, apart form being old, your link doesn't provide the actual data or methodology used. Nor does it clearly state what the sampling of law firms was. My understanding is that it is referring to NLJ250 firms. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of the bottom 150 firms are the ones promoting these regional graduates that you're referring to; the reputable law firms that handle quality work are not doing so with great regularity. While there are some partners at V10 firms from these schools, they are very few and are often laterals. My experience is that they are even fewer than the number of partners who are HYPS UG + YSH law school partners.
Make no mistake, OP: law firms are selling the prestige of their associates' resumes to their clients. As you can see from the earlier link, it's no coincidence that by far the most profitable firm is also the most likely to hew to stringent hiring criteria.
And as the data indicates, there isn't a bias in these firms when it comes to promoting these people to partner. Firms are all about the money. They care about which associate is doing better work, billing more, and bringing in more money, not who has the more prestigious degree.
I also have to chuckle at your assumption that only the "bottom 150 firms" are the ones promoting lower ranked law students. You're truly the quintessential Ivy League grad. You are really playing up to the stereotype.
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Re: T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go?
Could you comment on how many there are? To the extent that we use partner promotion as a proxy for success — your argument, not mine — go ahead and tell me how many partners are there are CGSH or S&C or DPW or any other V10 from Tier 2 and Tier 3 schools. Given that this is how you measure success, do you really want OP to subject himself to those chances against those from Columbia — with arguably the best representation in biglaw?I'm sure you can find students from lower ranked schools at these firms as well. I've seen a number of anecdotes on this site warning transfers that they may not be given a fair shake with certain firms.
The money comes from the prestige of the firm and the prestige of the resumes of the attorneys. I fully acknowledge that any reasonably intelligent attorney can do most of the work. But law is about being thorough and looking behind as many corners as possible, in addition to being extremely high intelligence and having a preternatural level of attention to detail. The kids who are Harvard UG + YLS (and there are more than a few at, for example, WLRK) have literally done everything they were supposed to do since they were 10 years old. Those are the people the clients want handling their bet-the-company matters.And as the data indicates, there isn't a bias in these firms when it comes to promoting these people to partner. Firms are all about the money. They care about which associate is doing better work, billing more, and bringing in more money, not who has the more prestigious degree.
But can you prove me wrong?I also have to chuckle at your assumption that only the "bottom 150 firms" are the ones promoting lower ranked law students. You're truly the quintessential Ivy League grad. You are really playing up to the stereotype.
OP, as an final matter, I would point out that both of the people who disagree with me have made personal attacks. (The other person insinuated that I am lying about my employment and have failed the bar — and later edited the post upon realizing that he's wrong.) I have completely refrained from doing so. This is symptomatic of the dynamic that will follow you for the rest of your life in the law: people in the out-group will feel jealous, bitter, and insecure when they come in contact with those in the in-group. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life being a part of the out-group?
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