T3 v CLS - Is there ever a reason not to go? Forum

[jbagelboy]

.

[browniestasty]

I'm a bit confused by the conversation.

He said he got a callback, not offer.

Even if it's an SA offer, it's still not a lock for full time post graduation. I think the insurance value CLS offers far outweighs 200k, short, medium, and long term.

[smaug]

I'm a bit confused by the conversation.

He said he got a callback, not offer.

Even if it's an SA offer, it's still not a lock for full time post graduation. I think the insurance value CLS offers far outweighs 200k, short, medium, and long term.

yeah and you have some CLS students here (i.e., me) saying "gosh, that's too much to pay for insurance to get a job you might hate anyway"

[jkpolk]

I'm a bit confused by the conversation.

He said he got a callback, not offer.

Even if it's an SA offer, it's still not a lock for full time post graduation. I think the insurance value CLS offers far outweighs 200k, short, medium, and long term.

yeah and you have some CLS students here (i.e., me) saying "gosh, that's too much to pay for insurance to get a job you might hate anyway"

This dude is getting pre-OCI callbacks at v10s. he's got a job. an SA at that level is a lock for full time - and if it isn't, it wouldn't have mattered what school he went to.

[jbagelboy]

OP, at the end of the day, what kind of lawyer did you want to be when you started 1L? What kind of lawyer do you want to be now?

If you just want to work at a firm and make a good living, I change my mind and agree with smaug. If you think you might be interested in different kinds of work than private transactional practice, I would transfer.

Smaug--do you think we know enough about the conditions of the lateral and in-house market to guess the value of the degree down the road? What brings me back to supporting transfering here is the almost certain knowledge that OP will be looking for a new job in about five or six years and that he or she will benefit in difficult to quantify ways from being a graduate from a top school. Idk. I'm tempted to say fuck it and agree with you but that and another looming recession for the legal market is holding me back.

[xfer999]

Clerking is something I would consider, but isn't necessarily my goal. My ultimate goal is to grind BigLaw 4-5 years and then exit.

1. Why do you want to grind BigLaw if you won't have debt and you don't want to make partner?
2. What do you want to do after you exit?

[smaug]

I don't have enough sight down the road yet and think that there are only a few posters on TLS who can really speak to that (our V15 partner; old gregg)

I am surprised by the background of some folks client-side. (Everyone I've met/worked with seems brilliant but their background doesn't always scream PREFTIGE the way TLS makes you think it would...)

Frankly, my limited personal opinion is that it seems (1) very unpredictable and (2) like there's more musical chairs than anything else.

I think you also need to accept that people just burn out and leave. Who that hits also seems pretty dang random, other than that people who are financially situated that they can just say "fuck it" and leave are more likely to do so...

I also think we need to learn more about state and local government because it seems like a not-uncommon exit for litigators that isn't discussed too much here.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I want to save some money. A family member of mine has a booming non-legal buisness that just keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point that they will need consistent legal counsel one day--I hope. I would love to one day work for that family member with the skills and training I get from BigLaw and try and be a valuable asset to the company. I also think that I would love to own my own firm one day, but right now I want to go grind and get the best possible legal training in the industry.

But essentialy, I want to have cash on hand to break into some deals that this family member has (real estate/developing/etc) and I think 4-5 in BigLaw is the way to do it.

[smaug]

OP here. I want to save some money. A family member of mine has a booming non-legal buisness that just keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point that they will need consistent legal counsel one day--I hope. I would love to one day work for that family member with the skills and training I get from BigLaw and try and be a valuable asset to the company. I also think that I would love to own my own firm one day, but right now I want to go grind and get the best possible legal training in the industry.

But essentialy, I want to have cash on hand to break into some deals that this family member has (real estate/developing/etc) and I think 4-5 in BigLaw is the way to do it.

if you want cash on hand, you can't really go 200k in debt...

you'd be likely to break even after transferring

[Anonymous User]

OP here. I want to save some money. A family member of mine has a booming non-legal buisness that just keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point that they will need consistent legal counsel one day--I hope. I would love to one day work for that family member with the skills and training I get from BigLaw and try and be a valuable asset to the company. I also think that I would love to own my own firm one day, but right now I want to go grind and get the best possible legal training in the industry.

But essentialy, I want to have cash on hand to break into some deals that this family member has (real estate/developing/etc) and I think 4-5 in BigLaw is the way to do it.

if you want cash on hand, you can't really go 200k in debt...

you'd be likely to break even after transferring

Op here. That's exactly why I am having a difficult time rationalizing going, but at the same time I'm like how am I going to turn this down. I've always wanted this and now I have the option but it doesn't seem to make much sense to go. And here is still the uncertainty of not getting BigLaw at my current school, but admittedly, I would be shocked (enraged) if I don't get it.

[jbagelboy]

OP here. I want to save some money. A family member of mine has a booming non-legal buisness that just keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point that they will need consistent legal counsel one day--I hope. I would love to one day work for that family member with the skills and training I get from BigLaw and try and be a valuable asset to the company. I also think that I would love to own my own firm one day, but right now I want to go grind and get the best possible legal training in the industry.

But essentialy, I want to have cash on hand to break into some deals that this family member has (real estate/developing/etc) and I think 4-5 in BigLaw is the way to do it.

Okay. Stay. If you want flexibility to work for yourself or your family then you can't be tied down by loans. Seems like the local school on scholarship with a few years at the big firm is the way to go.

[sflyr2016]

OP here. I want to save some money. A family member of mine has a booming non-legal buisness that just keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point that they will need consistent legal counsel one day--I hope. I would love to one day work for that family member with the skills and training I get from BigLaw and try and be a valuable asset to the company. I also think that I would love to own my own firm one day, but right now I want to go grind and get the best possible legal training in the industry.

But essentialy, I want to have cash on hand to break into some deals that this family member has (real estate/developing/etc) and I think 4-5 in BigLaw is the way to do it.

if you want cash on hand, you can't really go 200k in debt...

you'd be likely to break even after transferring

Op here. That's exactly why I am having a difficult time rationalizing going, but at the same time I'm like how am I going to turn this down. I've always wanted this and now I have the option but it doesn't seem to make much sense to go. And here is still the uncertainty of not getting BigLaw at my current school, but admittedly, I would be shocked (enraged) if I don't get it.

I can't believe i've totally flipped on this, but I think you should go. Your odds of biglaw aren't great where you're at and it's clear you want biglaw. But even more important, it sounds like attending cls was something you've always wanted, so i doubt you'll regret having accomplished that. Yes, you will absolutely regret having taken on an additional 200k, but I don't think you'd regret transferring. But If you stay and things don't pan out, then you may have some deep regrets about not transferring.

[xfer999]

Op here. That's exactly why I am having a difficult time rationalizing going, but at the same time I'm like how am I going to turn this down. I've always wanted this and now I have the option but it doesn't seem to make much sense to go. And here is still the uncertainty of not getting BigLaw at my current school, but admittedly, I would be shocked (enraged) if I don't get it.

I can't believe i've totally flipped on this, but I think you should go. Your odds of biglaw aren't great where you're at and it's clear you want biglaw. But even more important, it sounds like attending cls was something you've always wanted, so i doubt you'll regret having accomplished that. Yes, you will absolutely regret having taken on an additional 200k, but I don't think you'd regret transferring. But If you stay and things don't pan out, then you may have some deep regrets about not transferring.

Haha, I flipped the other way. OP, it sounds like going to CLS was your longtime dream, but maybe it's been supplanted by the newer, bigger dream of training to work in the family business, striking out on your own, etc. I think you can justify paying for a dream school if it truly is a dream school and you're willing to make future sacrifices for it (this is treating the school as an end in itself, rather than a means to an end - controversial opinion, I'm sure.) Also, it helps if you're feeling meh or actually unhappy at your current school. But if being in a position to grab the family opportunity is more important to you, then you're probably better served by saving the $200,000.

tl;dr: Follow your heart, I guess.

[anyriotgirl]

And I would rather have paid an extra $100k over what I already did to have gone to HLS rather than C/N. Note that, based on the data from LSN, the overwhelming majority of decisions made by Hamilton and Rubinstein offerees is to still go to Harvard or Yale, so I'm far from alone in thinking this.

The people here are conservative in their thought processes; they're entirely neglecting the very real upside that exists from attending the [much, much] better school. Moreover, there are a lot of people in this thread who went to lesser schools, and I really think there is some degree of rationalization of one's own poor decision-making (or flat-out poor opportunities in life) going on here.

There is a world of difference in the opportunities and experience of attending CLS versus a sub-T14, to say nothing of the school you're coming from. It wouldn't be a career-ending decision to stay where you are, but it would be a huge mistake and you absolutely would regret it for your entire legal career. Also, it is genuinely difficult to end up unemployed out of CLS, and striking out at biglaw with your grades is a very unlikely (but certainly nonzero) outcome.

have you made a student loan payment yet?

[lavarman84]

OP here. I want to save some money. A family member of mine has a booming non-legal buisness that just keeps getting bigger and bigger to the point that they will need consistent legal counsel one day--I hope. I would love to one day work for that family member with the skills and training I get from BigLaw and try and be a valuable asset to the company. I also think that I would love to own my own firm one day, but right now I want to go grind and get the best possible legal training in the industry.

But essentialy, I want to have cash on hand to break into some deals that this family member has (real estate/developing/etc) and I think 4-5 in BigLaw is the way to do it.

if you want cash on hand, you can't really go 200k in debt...

you'd be likely to break even after transferring

You're not factoring in his Columbia Law School degree. As we've been told, it's worth far more than $200,000.

FWIW, OP, if you think working for the family business is likely and you want financial flexibility, you're probably best off staying where you are.

And I'm not even sure that biglaw would be the best place for you to get trained. But it would be a great place for you to get paid until you bailed.

[clshopeful]

OP:

Another important thing to remember is that a large amount of V100 firms have increased their NY pay to 180k. That means the 200k debt will be paid off much quicker.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Realistically, generally how long would it take me to pay off 200k in debt working NY BIgLaw? Assuming there are numerous factors that would have to go into this answer, but assuming everything is average, i.e.: average rent, bills, etc., how long?

[smaug]

OP here. Realistically, generally how long would it take me to pay off 200k in debt working NY BIgLaw? Assuming there are numerous factors that would have to go into this answer, but assuming everything is average, i.e.: average rent, bills, etc., how long?

five to seven years, I'd guess, if you're on the aggressive end

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Realistically, generally how long would it take me to pay off 200k in debt working NY BIgLaw? Assuming there are numerous factors that would have to go into this answer, but assuming everything is average, i.e.: average rent, bills, etc., how long?

five to seven years, I'd guess, if you're on the aggressive end

And if I don't go, I can instead presumably save 200k+ over that time (assuming I land BigLaw at current school), which will allow me much greater flexibility.

It seems my decision should come down to whether or not I think I am going to land BigLaw from current school. Is there more I should be considering? Am I not giving the CLS degree enough value in making my decision?

This week I am going to go visit the school/area, see how my interviews go, and speak to someone who got into CLS from my school and didn't go, and speak to someone who got in and went. Right now, I really feel the right move is to stay put, and I don't necessarily think there is a right or wrong choice.

[sflyr2016]

OP here. Realistically, generally how long would it take me to pay off 200k in debt working NY BIgLaw? Assuming there are numerous factors that would have to go into this answer, but assuming everything is average, i.e.: average rent, bills, etc., how long?

five to seven years, I'd guess, if you're on the aggressive end

And if I don't go, I can instead presumably save 200k+ over that time (assuming I land BigLaw at current school), which will allow me much greater flexibility.

It seems my decision should come down to whether or not I think I am going to land BigLaw from current school. Is there more I should be considering? Am I not giving the CLS degree enough value in making my decision?

This week I am going to go visit the school/area, see how my interviews go, and speak to someone who got into CLS from my school and didn't go, and speak to someone who got in and went. Right now, I really feel the right move is to stay put, and I don't necessarily think there is a right or wrong choice.

Sounds like a winner. Talk to both and see what they say. And you hit it right on the head: there is no wrong decision because you've killed the law school game in the year it mattered most. Your career will be a bright one.

The only other thing worth considering, which is something I didn't appreciate when I decided against transferring, was how the effort of maintaining my rank for two more years really, really sucked. But I only did that because I wanted a clerkship. If I didn't care for one, then the grades didn't matter so much.

[xfer999]

It seems my decision should come down to whether or not I think I am going to land BigLaw from current school. Is there more I should be considering? Am I not giving the CLS degree enough value in making my decision?

Sure, here's one more consideration. Would Columbia let you cross-register for classes at the b-school? Because if you ultimately have entrepreneurial goals, perhaps it's relevant if CLS helps you access the Columbia b-school network, not just the law school. Sort of how like a top MBA program is valuable because of the students you take classes with, not because of the classes themselves. Maybe you could tap into some of that without actually getting an MBA. Just another idea if you're looking for justifications to transfer.

[pancakes3]

Above all else, I think you should ask your question in the "ask a V15 partner" thread for confirmation but I suspect he'll say that you're a very competitive SA applicant without transferring, given your stats.

That said, this shit is Bayesian, bros. Conditional probabilities change once the conditions change. A TTT vs CLS decision upon 1L enrollment is completely different from a TTT v. CLS decision after 1L grades.

OP, if you transfer, you're basically chasing prestige and you can't spend prestige. even if you don't land your V10 CB, you're still in a pretty good position to land some sort of 160k job in NYC by virtue of being top 2% in a NYC law school as long as you're mass-mailing; you already have mass-mailing results and it's only mid-July. If you transfer, you'll have more direct access to firms at OCI but your resume will still reflect your TTT school and your TTT grades. I don't think that marginal bump in additional face time is worth 200k.

also with respect to the "in club" or "out club" ... i'd kill myself if my self worth was dictated by what a few HYS coworkers thought of me. who gives a fuck? if they irrationally want to ostracize you because of your law degree, then they can go fuck themselves. it's just the law, bros. this shit is not that hard and taking pride in the fact that you're some sort of LevFin savant (read: paperpusher) is just plain sad.

Also, this post caught my eye:

I'm a bit confused by the conversation.

He said he got a callback, not offer.

Even if it's an SA offer, it's still not a lock for full time post graduation. I think the insurance value CLS offers far outweighs 200k, short, medium, and long term.

How does having CLS on a transcript help prevent a no-offered any more than some other school?

[Anonymous User]

Above all else, I think you should ask your question in the "ask a V15 partner" thread for confirmation but I suspect he'll say that you're a very competitive SA applicant without transferring, given your stats.

That said, this shit is Bayesian, bros. Conditional probabilities change once the conditions change. A TTT vs CLS decision upon 1L enrollment is completely different from a TTT v. CLS decision after 1L grades.

OP, if you transfer, you're basically chasing prestige and you can't spend prestige. even if you don't land your V10 CB, you're still in a pretty good position to land some sort of 160k job in NYC by virtue of being top 2% in a NYC law school as long as you're mass-mailing; you already have mass-mailing results and it's only mid-July. If you transfer, you'll have more direct access to firms at OCI but your resume will still reflect your TTT school and your TTT grades. I don't think that marginal bump in additional face time is worth 200k.

also with respect to the "in club" or "out club" ... i'd kill myself if my self worth was dictated by what a few HYS coworkers thought of me. who gives a fuck? if they irrationally want to ostracize you because of your law degree, then they can go fuck themselves. it's just the law, bros. this shit is not that hard and taking pride in the fact that you're some sort of LevFin savant (read: paperpusher) is just plain sad.

Also, this post caught my eye:

I'm a bit confused by the conversation.

He said he got a callback, not offer.

Even if it's an SA offer, it's still not a lock for full time post graduation. I think the insurance value CLS offers far outweighs 200k, short, medium, and long term.

How does having CLS on a transcript help prevent a no-offered any more than some other school?

I will definetly ask about my situation in the v15 thread. I didn't know that thread was still active, I'm only on page 24 of 150 something haha, it's my subway reading material.

Also, this week I have a few mock interviews set up with v30 partners, and I am going to see what they have to say about all this.

Also, new question, my family really wants me to go, starting to offer to help with what they can, and I may have a place to stay in the city for free. It would be somewhat of a commute bc it's downtown area but it's free. If I can get the COA to stay below 100k, I go, right?

[sflyr2016]

A cls degree for under 100k is a pretty great deal.

[Anonymous User]

One other thing I haven't really discussed. I love the situation I am in at my current school. I have an amazing group of friends. I have great relationships with my professors, which has been a huge part of my success. All in all, I am very comfortable. I'm pretty social and am not worried about not being able to make friends/build relationships at CLS etc., but before I got into CLS, I couldn't wait to go back to school, and now that I don't know if I am going back or not, it's a bit upsetting--I don't know what to think about this.